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| Foreign shipping brokerage costs and UPS - (Was: Re: Slik Stik - Any Word) |
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| CheffoJeffo:
With all due respect for those who may be missing the point, duty and taxes are not the same as the brokerage fees (and advance fees, entry prep fees, handling fees, etc.) -- brokerage fees are what the customs broker charges you, not what the government charges you. Brokerage fees CANNOT be disclosed by the shipper, because the choice of brokerage is up to the recipient (or, rather it should be ... kinda the point). The issue is that UPS doesn't really disclose the relatively huge fees when they are at your door and, once you sign that little pad, they are your broker for all packages in the future. [EDIT: that is for packages shipped by UPS, not actually all packages ... mea culpa] Bear in mind that Canada Post and a number of other shippers charge about $5 in brokerage fees where UPS charges 600% of that ... and opts you in to their services going forward. A big part of the problem is that none of us ever reads what we sign, so we do end up blaming UPS. At the same time, UPS' fees are way out of line on almost everything that I have had shipped relating to this hobby. You can opt out and have someone else clear your goods and still use UPS for shipping, but you have to chase that down with UPS. Again, I refer the interested reader to a valuable note on importing into Canada, as written by someone who works in the trade (and is a collector): http://www.cgcc.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7594&sid=a3328c60b38f880e9b2ff03f5672a1af Sorry for the soapbox -- I just thought that maybe we should understand what the issue actually is before we stand on a soapbox. Oh ... and UPS is not your most economically efficient choice for shipping normal arcade-related goodies cross-border into Canada ... is that better ? ;) Oh, and as a wise mod on some arcade forum once said ... "anybody who is serious about Coin-Op in Canada maintains a US mailing address". :cheers: EDIT: As a real-world example, I recently had a shipment of arcade goodies arrive from Hong Kong via DHL. I placed the order on Friday afternoon and received my package on Tuesday morning. Total owing for brokerage fees, taxes and duties was C$11.58. UPS would have charged me about C$45 for the same taxes and duties. ::) |
| dirt:
i think someone works for ups. demaximis im looking in your general direction. ;D |
| demaximis:
Agreed that brokerage fees are not the same as duties & taxes. I never meant to imply that they were one and the same. We'll have to disagree about the disclosure of the brokerage fees. Since you focused on UPS, I'll go with that carrier -- UPS charges a brokerage fee based upon the value of a given shipment. ALL courier shipments importing into Canada with a value exceeding $20 CAD require customs clearance by the importer or their agent (customs broker). You can thank Canada for that. I assume that you read the post you linked to, and it clearly states that UPS and other carriers charge a fee for the service which is REQUIRED to move the goods across the border. Sure, you could clear customs yourself, but the service is door-to-door, and that's what UPS, FedEx, etc. provide. When you order something online from the States to Canada, and pay for shipping, you are usually the consignee, unless you set up the shipment yourself. UPS has no idea about the value of that shipment, or even what's inside. The SHIPPER knows this information, and has access to UPS's rates (or any other carrier it is using), as well as its brokerage fees (they are clearly stated on UPS's website, for example, at http://www.ups.com/content/ca/en/shipping/cost/zones/customs_clearance.html). I understand that, as a consumer, it bothers you that UPS does not disclose its brokerage costs to you until the goods get to your door. However, who is really in the best position to disclose those costs to you, and when? Is it UPS, who has no idea who you are (remember, it has the relationship with the SHIPPER who tenders the package, not the consignee), has no idea what you ordered, or what it's worth... or is it the SHIPPER, who knows YOU (your contact information, email address, credit card, etc.), what you ordered, what it's worth, and where it is going? I agree that those costs should be disclosed to international shoppers, but it is the SHIPPER that should disclose them, not the carrier. This is from someone in the (shipping) trade. In the end, it seems to me like your biggest gripe is that UPS is not the most cost-efficient shipper to Canada. That may be true. But, you have to compare apples to apples. Canada Post might be able to clear customs at a lower cost, but what would they charge for pickup service in the US? How many drop boxes do they maintain in the shipper's area? What is their declared value policy? What is their commitment to time-definite service? Their ability to provide tracking information? Paperless invoices? Delivery intercept? In the end, you almost always have a choice as a consumer. You could always arrange for your own shipping, or you can drive down and pick it up yourself, though in most cases, that would not be cost-efficient. The point is, you could. UPS and other carriers charge money for a service they provide -- that's business. It may cost more for them to clear north-border customs because they don't have the same network in Canada that Canada Post does. But, Canada Post can't touch the network they have here, nor can Canada Post provide the same level of support to US domestic shippers. Putting aside service, all carriers have more favorable rates in different lanes - while DHL might have beat UPS's rate in your example, the same might not be true for a UPS delivery from US to Israel, or China, or country X. What you point out is that different carriers are better in different situations. That's called competition. So, agreed, it makes sense to maintain a US address, if multiple shipments from the US to Canada are an issue, and U.S. door-to-Canada door service isn't a priority. If it IS a priority, UPS, FedEx, and others can perform that service. That said, I agree that consumers should be made aware of any costs up front, but it is the Shipper who has this responsibility, not the carrier. As for working for UPS or another carrier (I cannot confirm), it never hurts to have a friend in the shipping business who likes arcade controls, does it? ;) |
| CheffoJeffo:
I know that genesim is going to call me out on what he has termed my lawyer-response-style, but since I am responding to a lawyer (why I am arguing about importing things into Canada with a lawyer from Georgia is totally beyond me!), maybe he'll let it go ... --- Quote from: demaximis on January 02, 2008, 05:54:03 pm ---In the end, it seems to me like your biggest gripe is that UPS is not the most cost-efficient shipper to Canada. That may be true. But, you have to compare apples to apples. --- End quote --- Actually, no ... the issue is that most noobs in this hobby are about as aware of the issue as they are about SlikStik's long-standing failure to deliver (sound familiar ?), so it is up to the old farts to tell them. And every time this happens, there are some new folks who stand up and say it isn't so or get upset because they had good dealings with SlikStik or UPS or whomever. And so we have to continue to tell the same bloody story each time so that people avoid getting charged more than they should (or could), even though some people hate to see companies "dragged through the mud". --- Quote from: demaximis on January 02, 2008, 05:54:03 pm ---Canada Post might be able to clear customs at a lower cost, but what would they charge for pickup service in the US? How many drop boxes do they maintain in the shipper's area? What is their declared value policy? What is their commitment to time-definite service? Their ability to provide tracking information? Paperless invoices? Delivery intercept? --- End quote --- All good questions ... ? Canada Post doesn't pickup in the USA ... you have this nifty little organization called the USPS and I think they have a drop box or two. ::) Tracking can be sometimes be interesting crossing the border, but I have never had a problem. Other issues would be specifically related to shipping costs, not brokerage costs, so are off-target (unless you, as an insider, are telling us that UPS is subsidizing those services via excessive brokerage fees, instead of delivery fees ...). --- Quote from: demaximis on January 02, 2008, 05:54:03 pm ---In the end, you almost always have a choice as a consumer. You could always arrange for your own shipping, or you can drive down and pick it up yourself, though in most cases, that would not be cost-efficient. The point is, you could. UPS and other carriers charge money for a service they provide -- that's business. It may cost more for them to clear north-border customs because they don't have the same network in Canada that Canada Post does. But, Canada Post can't touch the network they have here, nor can Canada Post provide the same level of support to US domestic shippers. --- End quote --- Agreed about choice, but comparing Canada Post's services in the USA is kinda silly, isn't it -- after all, you SEND the packages via USPS and they are DELIVERED via CP. BTW -- I'm not Canada Post's poster boy -- I also use Fedex, DHL and other carriers whose brokerage rates are more reasonable than UPS. --- Quote from: demaximis on January 02, 2008, 05:54:03 pm ---Putting aside service, all carriers have more favorable rates in different lanes - while DHL might have beat UPS's rate in your example, the same might not be true for a UPS delivery from US to Israel, or China, or country X. What you point out is that different carriers are better in different situations. That's called competition. --- End quote --- The issue of competition is specifically WHY old folks like me need to tell the new kids how to move stuff across borders in a manner that is favourable to them. UPS is absolutely dead last on the list of carriers for most Canadian arcade enthusiasts looking to get items from the USA. It may be an opinion, but it is one that is widely shared here ... I, and others (like the people you called out and a bunch of others I know who lurk), actually buy stuff in the USA and get it shipped to Canada. In fact, there are some collectors that I can think of who won't order stuff from the ONLY legitimate supplier in the world because that supplier will only ship with UPS. I have about 2-3 packages shipped each week into Canada from the USA (not all arcade-related) and have a pretty solid idea how to do it efficiently. I want to share that knowledge with folks who may not know otherwise. You want to protect UPS' image (maybe you are an employee, maybe they are a client or maybe you are just a samaritan) --I don't have a problem with that ... there are UPS employees on this board and I have no issues with them. --- Quote from: demaximis on January 02, 2008, 05:54:03 pm ---As for working for UPS or another carrier (I cannot confirm), it never hurts to have a friend in the shipping business who likes arcade controls, does it? ;) --- End quote --- Nope ... I have a couple ... one wrote that guide and is a VERY good person to know. At some point you seem to have interpreted this discussion into an attack on private delivery companies -- it never was -- it is a completely valid criticism of UPS, most of which you have countered with arguments about services that are already covered in the shipping costs and are distinct from the brokerage fees we are talking about. You don't really expect to use shipment tracking as a defense of brokerage fees, do you ? After all, I can clear the package myself and still get all of those services using UPS, Fedex, DHL, whomever. :dunno |
| Zakk:
As a person who has shipped countless "arcade" related products from England and the US, I will, without hesitation, stand on a soapbox at any time and declare that without a doubt, UPS is a scammy, croooked, horrible company when it comes to cross border shipments. Even Fedex (which is usually more expensive than UPS), doesn't charge such ridiculous fees. Don't even try to confuse people by saying they are "government charges". UPS just sort of makes up an amount (let's say $50USD on a $40USD part), which is demanded before they will release the package to you. THIS is probably where the problem with receivers not accepting packages comes in. I've turned down a couple. One was a $10 part, that I paid $15 to ship...so $25 total. UPS wanted $35 BROKERAGE, and $5 in duty/taxes. So they wanted $5 more than the part, the shipping and all the duties combined. True story, and I have several more. I have NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER had this happen when shipping via USPS. Not ever. ever. I do not mind paying duty, I mind paying an extortion payment. So if you do work for UPS fella, call your supervisor and ask him what kind of chart they use to figure out that "fee". I'm almost assuming they do it by area. The more affluent the area, the more they just stick on, figuring the person at the door will just pay it. All that said, inside Canada, I'd have no problems using UPS. They are polite, and they charge a reasonable fee. My only qualm is the extortion department they seem to have at the border. |
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