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| Foreign shipping brokerage costs and UPS - (Was: Re: Slik Stik - Any Word) |
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| Loafmeister:
I won't be defending UPS. I received a warrantied replacement part delivered through UPS. ie: a FREE replacement. I still got charged $18 brokerage fees. How does that fit in your example demaximis? It's a simple thing, whenever I order something from the states, I ask for them to ship USPS and by an incredible miracle, I never ever get any brokerage fees tacked on. Must be a coincidence... |
| demaximis:
I know that genesim is going to call me out on what he has termed my lawyer-response-style, but since I am responding to a lawyer (why I am arguing about importing things into Canada with a lawyer from Georgia is totally beyond me!), maybe he'll let it go ... Actually, if you read my response, you'll see that I agree with you on most of the pertinent issues. A [good] lawyer will attempt to resolve issues. Continuing to press on issues not at issue in the debate is not responding like a lawyer. It's called being argumentative. Also, my profession and/or location are not really relevant to this topic, are they? No need to lower expectations about your ability to "debate" on this issue - you raised some valid points, and I tried to address them. To summarize, I think we both agree that private shippers like UPS and FedEx may not be the low-cost leaders when it comes to shipping goods across the Canadian border because of the brokerage fees associated with those shipments. the issue is that most noobs in this hobby are about as aware of the issue as they are about SlikStik's long-standing failure to deliver (sound familiar ?), so it is up to the old farts to tell them. And every time this happens, there are some new folks who stand up and say it isn't so or get upset because they had good dealings with SlikStik or UPS or whomever. And so we have to continue to tell the same bloody story each time so that people avoid getting charged more than they should (or could), even though some people hate to see companies "dragged through the mud". Again, I agree that everyone should be aware of the shipping charges up-front. In fact, I think I made that point several times, though you seemed to miss it. The problem is that the carrier gets blamed for not informing the customer of additional service fees (fully known to the shipper) until the goods arrive at the customer's door. Slikstik (or any other retailer or shipper) has the obligation to inform the customer. The carriers' fees are generally fixed (see the link to UPS's website below, for example), so the costs are pretty easy to figure out, if you have the declared value of the goods, and the shipper knows how to properly prepare a shipment. The real message to prospective customers in Canada seeking shipments from the US is to ask the retailer how they handle customs brokerage before you order the goods -- regardless of which carrier is being used. Some retailers actually pre-pay customs brokerage fees (negotiating better rates based on volume), building those costs into shipping & handling charges. The point is, no one is surprised. If this was the same point you were trying to make (as hard as it was to discern from the "lawyer-response-style"), it was a good one. ::) Canada Post doesn't pickup in the USA ... you have this nifty little organization called the USPS and I think they have a drop box or two. Tracking can be sometimes be interesting crossing the border, but I have never had a problem. Other issues would be specifically related to shipping costs, not brokerage costs, so are off-target (unless you, as an insider, are telling us that UPS is subsidizing those services via excessive brokerage fees, instead of delivery fees ...). Now, you're actually getting into an interesting issue (see more below). Of course I was not insinuating that UPS, FedEx, or other private carriers subsidize their shipping costs via "excessive" brokerage fees. The point I was making was that, while the overall cost of shipping (including shipping and brokerage) to Canada might be slightly higher with a private carrier, you are receiving a premium service, and some customers (perhaps those that have ever tried to file a damage claim, track a package, or speak to a customer service representative at the USPS) might appreciate that service. As we've already established, if cost is the sole, determining factor, a private carrier is probably not the way to go from US to Canada. Agreed about choice, but comparing Canada Post's services in the USA is kinda silly, isn't it -- after all, you SEND the packages via USPS and they are DELIVERED via CP. The same points hold true for the USPS. Mail carriers simply do not provide the same level of service as the private delivery companies. Again, if cost is the ONLY factor, then mail's your best bet. The issue of competition is specifically WHY old folks like me need to tell the new kids how to move stuff across borders in a manner that is favourable to them. UPS is absolutely dead last on the list of carriers for most Canadian arcade enthusiasts looking to get items from the USA. It may be an opinion, but it is one that is widely shared here ... I, and others (like the people you called out and a bunch of others I know who lurk), actually buy stuff in the USA and get it shipped to Canada. In fact, there are some collectors that I can think of who won't order stuff from the ONLY legitimate supplier in the world because that supplier will only ship with UPS. I guess it all depends on how you define "favourable." I take your definition to mean cheapest, which is certainly one way of looking at things. What I'm saying is that it's not the only way, and perhaps as the self-proclaimed "old fart," it might make sense for you to present all options, especially because some customers might appreciate the level of service the private carriers offer, especially if something goes wrong with the shipment of a long-awaited control panel. There may also be size and weight restrictions the mail carriers have that the private shipping companies do not. I'm guessing there's a reason that the company you referred to only ships with a company like UPS, and I'm sure that cost is not the only factor there. At some point you seem to have interpreted this discussion into an attack on private delivery companies -- it never was -- it is a completely valid criticism of UPS, most of which you have countered with arguments about services that are already covered in the shipping costs and are distinct from the brokerage fees we are talking about. Actually, it was not your post that triggered my initial response - I believe it was the post referring to "Legal Theft" and then the recent post referring to UPS as "scammy, crooked, horrible." Perhaps I misinterpreted the allegations of thievery or "scammy" behavior as attacks. Silly me. ;) You don't really expect to use shipment tracking as a defense of brokerage fees, do you ? And as I said before, I did not use shipment tracking as a defense of brokerage fees, nor do I intend to now (though to some shippers/consignees, detailed tracking information is EVERYTHING, so a cavalier dismissal of it (not to mention the other services you omitted) is probably not warranted). The private shippers have higher brokerage fees. No secret there. UPS's may be the highest - I do not know. However, I do suspect that those fees have a rational relationship to their costs. Why? Because of FIERCE competition within the shipping industry. UPS and FedEx are private companies that operate to make a profit. In order to do so, they must provide a service that customers want, at a price that customers will pay. If entities like UPS set their rates too high, competitors like FedEx will take market share, and vice versa, for similar services. The funny thing is that the mail carriers (USPS, Canada Post, etc. (and even DHL to a certain extent -- DHL is owned by Deutche Post, the German mail carrier)) don't have to play by the same rules. Why? Because they own MONOPOLIES that they use to subsidize their other operations. Both the USPS and CP own a monopoly on First Class mail. No other carrier can compete in this space (though a little known fact is that the private carriers are contracted to carry certain mail for the USPS because they can't handle it all). Even though the USPS is quasi-private, it does NOT have to make a profit, and, to the best of my knowledge, it does not. To raise revenue, they do not have to increase service or offer more competitive products, they just have to increase the price of postage, of which only they can carry. I realize this is a little [ok, a lot] off-topic, but I thought the armchair-lawyer in you (and perhaps, casual reader) would appreciate a little more factual background relating to subsidies in the shipping industry (as you raised the issue). I am sure that private companies like FedEx and UPS would LOVE to compete with the mail carriers on a level playing field in which the mail carriers had to provide the same services and make a profit as well. I'm guessing that the shipping fees or brokerage fees that the private carriers charge would not look so "excessive" if that was the case. To Zakk, carriers like UPS (as you allege) do not simply "make up" their brokerage rates and fees (shipping rates are based on zone/location, but brokerage fees are fixed). They are clearly identified in their rate sheets, tariffs, and on their websites. See, again, for example: http://www.ups.com/content/ca/en/shipping/cost/zones/customs_clearance.html In your example, if the part was a $10 part, and was properly declared as such by the shipper (remember: the carrier has no idea what the value of the shipment is, and relies on what the shipper declares), there should have been no brokerage fee, according to UPS. If the declared value was mistakenly declared as $25, then the brokerage fee, again according to UPS, should only have been $7. I have no idea what kind of value the shipper declared on this anecdotal package, nor do I know if there were exceptions with this shipment (again, resulting from incorrect or incomplete information from the shipper) that caused additional delays or fees to be assessed. Sounds to me like the shipment was improperly prepared/declared. Finally, to Loafmeister, the issue is the same. Whoever shipped you the "free" replacement part probably declared a "non-free" value for that shipment. Again, UPS has no idea about the contents of the shipments it is carrying -- it is just relying on the value that the shipper provides, which is all it can do. Not that I'm trying to be a UPS zealot, but I still don't understand how the private carrier is at fault in this situation. I am in total agreement with you that you have not been made whole -- I just think it is the SHIPPER that is responsible for all costs you incur (including any private brokerage fees) resulting from replacement of a warrantied part. Sorry to have taken the thread off-topic, and as requested, I will "let it go." |
| CheffoJeffo:
--- Quote from: demaximis on January 03, 2008, 11:03:53 am ---Sorry to have taken the thread off-topic, and as requested, I will "let it go." --- End quote --- I don't see any need to let it go -- you have been forthright, honest and respectful in your commentary -- can't ask for more than that. After all, I was the one who took it off-topic in the first place. Perhaps we should split this off into another thread (mods ?), but the conversation is valuable. As I said in my last post, however, I think that you have seen this as an attack on private carriers and it isn't. There are a few carriers who have excessive brokerage fees, compared to the public carrier AND other private carriers. My comparisons have been entirely limited to the brokerage fee issue because it is so far out of line (and, FWIW, the various FedEx carriers charge different amounts, so some are not bad and some are) and is, for a large part, hidden and not disclosed (by either UPS or the shippers). Both DHL and Fedex are more typically expensive than UPS for me for base shipping costs, but the UPS brokerage fees completely annhilate the apparent savings. As for what Zakk says about randomness ... I can vouch for what he said. I know that UPS now posts their fees (IIRC, that was part of them trying to straighten the practice up prior to the suits being filed), but the apparently random nature of their brokerage fees HAS been a real and serious issue (it has happened to me ... I got hit with $30 on a $10 item while my wife was hit with $10 on $750). The issue is not that UPS charges a brokerage fee, it is that UPS has been charging a bloody huge (and sometimes apparently random) brokerage fee without presenting the alternatives in a fair manner. You suggest that the seller should disclose and I would agree -- I'll go further and suggest that the buyer needs to be aware and responsible, hence the need for folks to post about their actual experiences (after all, I could read the shipping info information on SlikStik.com and conclude that you are all a bunch of whiners ... except that you're the ones with the bad experiences and you're right). It is clear to me that you believe what you say, but it is equally apparent that you don't actually ship stuff to Canada using UPS, so your comments don't ring quite true. This stuff is not made up -- neither Zakk, nor I, nor the others are lying about this just to beat up on UPS (I, for one, have other folks that I would much prefer to beat up on). As a newb, you may not know Zakk, but when he says that he imported a lot of arcade stuff, he did (and he's been warning folks about SlikStik for a long time). :cheers: |
| Zakk:
To argue that UPS's BROKERAGE fee is posted is an outright mistake. (Well maybe it is now, I'm not sure as I'll never use them to go across the border again). Let me say that they their charges were indeed, absolutely, random. To say that they look at a box and say "hmm, that doesn't look like a $25 box, that looks like a $90000 box" and charge accordingly is crap. I still say they base it on a toss of the dice, cross referenced with the neighborhood they are delivering too. Nice big house, let's tack on $40, they won't miss it! I'll say again, I've shipped a lot of stuff from people in the States, have NEVER asked anyone to misrepresent the value (if that is what you're insinuating, UPS guy), and ONLY has UPS ever tried to extort me (more than once). Lastly, your argument states that it's misrepresented values that might be the problem. Okay, so if it is, wouldn't this be an issue with customs, which comes as a SEPARATE charge. I know a customs officer, and they are more than well aware that things marked as GIFT is rarely a gift. They know a $5,000 watch when they see it. If they catch yo misrepresenting a value, then they charge you duty and a fine before releasing the item. I don't see how this affects UPS in any way. They agreed to transport a 4" X 4" box from A to B, with a declared value of say $20. If it got lost or broken and was in fact worth $50,000 would UPS be on the hook for the 50 grand? Oh I think not. So you are saying that they just assume people are lying and stick a naughty tax on the parcel when it arrives? What a load of junk. Just don't use UPS EVER if you're getting something sent to Canada from the US. Period. There's tons of alternatives that don't rape you. I'm not arguing with you, because I don't care that you are brainwashed and/or don't want to believe that UPS is this corrupt, but I'd like to point out the facts for others in the hobby that have yet to be raped by your beloved company. K? Oh, and don't buy from slik stik. |
| CheffoJeffo:
NOTE: the issue with genesim that I referred to is that he hates when I dissect posts and respond to individual points, nothing really to do with demaximis ... the lawyer thing was coincidental. --- Quote from: demaximis on January 03, 2008, 11:03:53 am ---The real message to prospective customers in Canada seeking shipments from the US is to ask the retailer how they handle customs brokerage before you order the goods -- regardless of which carrier is being used. --- End quote --- I was preparing another post with some comparatively minor points, but, at the end of the day, the advice you give here is excellent, so I'll quote it for emphasis, with the disclaimer that most "retailers" in this hobby won't know or care, so the buyer needs to find out (or be told by folks like us) for themselves. :cheers: |
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