Happ Competition Joystick sloppy - RESOLVED w/ shims

[Zebidee]

Hi all

I just got two sets (8 joys, 2 red/2 blue/2 green/2 yellow) of Happ Competition joysticks for fitting into two four-player cabs, and I'm not very happy.   

The joysticks are very, very sloppy.  Unacceptably so, and because of this they feel cheap.  the joystick bounces so much that often I find my game character has turned around inadvertently, because the joystick has bounced back the other way.  This makes many games (eg Ghosts n Goblins) unplayable, even though they should be playable with a good 8-way joystick.

I mean, I thought that the Happ controls were better than this.  From the reviews I've read, posters on this forum etc.  I feel ripped off. 

So, my questions are:  Does anyone know how to make these joysticks more playable?  How do I "stiffen them up"?  Especially, I want to eliminate this double-bouncing behaviour.  They are spring-centred, but stretching this would only make them looser and sloppier, I think. 

[Xiaou2]

Dont let go of the stick, and they wont bounce.

[Zebidee]

Dont let go of the stick, and they wont bounce.

Cmon guys, any serious brains out there?

[Spaz Monkey]

What are you doing to make the stick so bouncy?

[Zebidee]

What are you doing to make the stick so bouncy?

Played a game.  Any serious input?

I've solved the problem now - they are heaps better now.  You need to put shims in under the spring the make it a bit shorter/tighter, so that the stick doesn't bounce back and hit the opposite direction.  Quick visit to the hardware store fixed the problem.

I put an M20 steel washer and two 12mm fibre washers (used in plumbing) as shims to reduce the spring length by about 5mm.

Does anybody else out there actually have Happ Competition Joysticks and understand this problem?  I would never  be happy with them as sloppy and bouncy as they were, out-of-the-box.  Much happier now though and I know that I can make adjustments by adding/removing shims.

[MaximRecoil]

Does anybody else out there actually have Happ Competition Joysticks and understand this problem? 

I think the reason you got the responses you did is because it is not a problem for most people. All joysticks of that style that I've seen bounce in the center a bit if you push them over all the way and then let go. Someone would have to have an unusual style of using a joystick for this to ever happen during gameplay (except if your hand were to slip off the joystick accidentally).

Do you just tap the joystick in the direction you want rather than keeping your hand on it at all times?

[TOK]

I have Competitions on one of my machines and never noticed the issue you're having. I do know they return to center with a bit of a twang if you let them go, but never played a game where just letting the stick go was a useful strategy.

How did your mod affect the regular feel of the stick? I rather like the light throw of the Comps, but that is probably what contributes to the issue you were having. Is the throw now stiffer?

[Zebidee]

Maxrecoil, it seems that you notice the same joystick behaviour but it doesn't bother you 
Maybe I'm just too fussy    I grew up using rubber-plug/grommet centred joysticks, and they simply didn't allow for "bounce".  If I watch a Happ Competition joysticks from underneath, I watch the activator bounce back and forth (and up and down a bit too) and trigger the opposite switch.

I really notice the problem playing a game like Ghosts n Goblins.  But it affects other games as well. 

In G&G you have to tap-tap-tap the joystick in one direction while tapping the fire button to get your shots to bunch together.  If I do that (essential) tactic in G&G, I often get turned around because the joystick has bounced back the other way.  The result of this, usually, is that you get killed.  You can't avoid this by "Holding onto the joystick" because the response would be too slow.

It might not be a problem in Streetfighter-style games or shmups, but it is for heaps of others.

ANYWAY, the effect of my "shimming" is that the joysticks don't bounce about as much, and I don't have that problem in G&G now.  It is a much better compromise - the joysticks feel a bit stiffer now, which is a good thing, but not stiff and clunky like a Magstick (I have used these too).  So they are more in-between , which is a good thing.

With shims, the 8-way Happs feel much better on 4-way games too.  I'm actually really happy with them now.

I want to experiment with a thin rubber shim under the metal one (the metal one would be in contact with the spring).  I think that this would improve the feel and action a little bit more again.  But I'll have to visit the specialist rubber store tomorrow to get those

[kowal]

purchase Japanese joystick seimitsu LS32/LS40/LS56 or sanwa JLF/JLW
they use pivot bearings.

[TOK]

purchase Japanese joystick seimitsu LS32/LS40/LS56 or sanwa JLF/JLW
they use pivot bearings.

Thats an excellent suggestion. I have a red balltop Sanwa in my bartop cab, and it combines the light throw and lacks the return "twang" of the Happ.

[MaximRecoil]

 
In G&G you have to tap-tap-tap the joystick in one direction while tapping the fire button to get your shots to bunch together.  If I do that (essential) tactic in G&G, I often get turned around because the joystick has bounced back the other way.  The result of this, usually, is that you get killed.  You can't avoid this by "Holding onto the joystick" because the response would be too slow.

It might not be a problem in Streetfighter-style games or shmups, but it is for heaps of others.

Yeah, I have a pair of them on an SFII machine where it is not a problem. I wouldn't know about G&G or others that might require a technique where the bounce would be a problem.

[Xam]

The comps do have a light spring and do "twang" back to center. It takes a bit of getting used to, but I have never had an issue with mine.

Xam

[Ahigh]

Anecdotally, the weak spring is what makes it easier for me to play robotron on comps.  It's definitely a preference thing.  I wasn't so sure about these joysticks at first myself, but it only took a short while before I adapted and preferred them.  Add to this how inexpensive they are, and it makes sense why they are so popular, especially for people who have to buy a lot of them (operators and manufacturers).

Stiffening the springs to your preference is a great idea.

On the flip side of the equation, I have some 4-way joysticks I bought from MikesArcade for my mspac galaga cocktail cabinet, and they have the opposite problem.  The spring is too stiff.  I have to use so much force to reverse directions that it interferes with gameplay.  I'm not sure if I could take some wire cutters to the springs to fix this, but your fix has me wondering.

--
- Ahigh

[kowal]

this is not the problem of spring.
it is problem of pivot construction.

[RandyT]

this is not the problem of spring.
it is problem of pivot construction.

No, actually, it's a combination of both things.  A larger circumference on the pivot part, the more likely it is to "lock" at center.  Likewise, the more pronounced this locking effect is, the more it is felt when trying to "unlock" the center position when you want to move it.

A ball pivot may be better, but if the spring power is not balanced to the pivot mechanism, one would still be able to get the bounce effect.

Proper balance of the components, based on the way they are used, is the key.  On models where it is possible to do so, even changing the knob to one that is a different weight than the original can affect this balance.

As for the Competitions, they are a very good stick.  A harder spring may prevent "twanging" but it will also lead to a more tiring game session.  Most will opt for less resistance in this case.

RandyT

[kowal]

actually pivot is most important, next actuator weight, height/weight of stick

actually the change of spring will not fit the bounce
this can reduce only 'quantity' of bounce, problem never will disappear.
I have 4 spring for my  P360. 600g, 400g, 350g, 250g all  bounce

[RandyT]

actually the change of spring will not fit the bounce
this can reduce only 'quantity' of bounce, problem never will disappear.

Regardless of the springs you have in your "library", you can indeed put a spring on any such mechanism of such force that it will not overshoot when released.  Simple physics of force pitted against momentum.

Whether you would ever want to play a game with that amount of spring tension is another story altogether.  But there is far more at play in the dynamic than just the "pivot design."

RandyT

[fjl]

I have two Sanwa sticks, the bat top and the ball top and neither one has this "twang" effect. The same goes for my Happ Supers Joystick.

I also own a pair of U360's and it does have that "twang" effect even with the hard springs in them. I think they should make an even stronger spring for it to prevent that from happening. And your right, there are games when you are supposed to let go of the joystick or "tap it" instead of holding on to it which causes this annoyance. I sometimes tap my direction on Ms. Pac-Man which causes her to do a little dance because of the "twang" effect and finishes off by going in the wrong direction.
 

[kowal]

sorry
do not refer on simple phisics because you do not understand her. this is the still problem of construction - not springs

U360 bounce because has fast engagement, faster than microswitches JLW version. Miroswitches let additional resistance. Every joystick has small bounce.
if someone do not want to have "bounce", purchase Japanese joystick - end of discussion

[Xiaou2]

A game like Mortal Kombat III requires forwards double taps + button strikes.

 The games used Comps.    Most dont ever have a problem with it.

 When you do the move, you keep your hand in center,  so that it wont fly past
and go the opposite direction.

 I keep my hands on it the entire move.  On the backswing, with featherlight
follow.    However, as said,  one could let go, and still catch it at the center.
Letting go completely is not a good strategy.

 Would you let of the steering wheel on a F1 race car at speeds of 200+ mph?

 
 As for MS Pacman,  It used a 4 way with a restricor.   That is what will keep the
joystick from hiccuping.   The problem is that if you hit a diagonal, it will cause issues.
The restrictor makes it impossible for that to happen.

 
 However, I do agree that Rubber gromets are much better than springs IMOP. 
If that is your game,  then I suggest picking up some true Wico 8ways off ebay.

 (just dont expect to play something like a Fighter with them)
 

[RandyT]

sorry
do not refer on simple phisics because you do not understand her.

Yeah, ok 

It's obvious from your posts, past and present, that you believe all joysticks are crap except the Japanese ones.  So please excuse me if I think it has some effect on your input.

Obviously if you can do things to increase the "twang" effect on a joystick, such as the addition of a heavy ball-top, then it stands to simple reason that similar adjustments in the opposite direction will minimize or eradicate this effect. 

And I"ll bet you a nickel that I can get your Japanese sticks to do it as well, without ever modifying the pivot mechanism.

RandyT

[Jack Burton]

Sounds like a Sanwa or Seimitsu joystick would be perfect for you.  They do not have the effect you described and are still excellent for fighting games. 

[fjl]

As are the Happ Supers. But what I like and dont like about the Sanwa's are the restrictor plates. I got the JLW or JLF or whichever one it was that has only a 4 way restrictor. The one I got doesn't have an 8 way octogonal restrictor.

As for the "twang" effect on U360's a stronger spring might do the trick. Or perhaps inserting something like foam to prevent bouncing. Not sure how that could be implemented though. Of course one must take into consideration that foam wears away. But I guess so do all the other parts.

[DeLuSioNal29]

I just figured I'd add my 2 cents in:

Looks to me that joysticks are like cars.  Everyone has their own preference on what style they like to drive.  If there were "universal" or "perfect" cars then everyone would have the same car.  Now that wouldn't be any fun would it?

~ DeLuSioNaL

[kowal]

RandyT, theme is about "bounce" , not regional/personal preference . You have regret for japanese because it don't bounce?  throw on japan atomic  bomb - problem will disappear.

[RandyT]

RandyT, theme is about "bounce" , not regional/personal preference . You have regret for japanese because it don't bounce?  throw on japan atomic  bomb - problem will disappear.

I think it may be time for a new translator.  My comments have nothing to do with countries.  I just referred to the sticks exactly as you did so the context would be clear.

I have seen flight sticks based on a ball pivot mechanism do the same bounce.  The Japanese sticks are balanced properly so they don't.  This means the springs and weights are all well balanced with the mechanism, not that a ball pivot is the only arrangement capable of performing this way, as you claimed.

Just trying to prevent your preference for Sanwa or Seimitsu joysticks from getting in the way of an accurate discussion.

RandyT

[councilface]

I also hate the feeling of my happs. I like the ergonomics of the actual stick but I didnt like the movement whilst playing games. In the end Ive put the sticks into the box with the microswitches (not sure of the correct terminology) that came with my videomaster (made in Birmingham uk) cab. They are now much stiffer thanks to the rubber bush that the sticks are now in.

[kowal]

purchase LS56 and LS55. both have identical height shaft and balltop, similar base,  but have different pivot mechanism.
LS55 bounce similarly how Eurojoystick
LS56 not  bounce - pivot is bend/hemisphere

your preference for Sanwa or Seimitsu joysticks

 I play on P360  and Suzo Universal Inductive - this is my preference.

[Zebidee]

I bought some high-density foam rubber "pipe", commonly used for insulating 20mm hot water pipes, about $5 for a metre from the hardware store.

With a pair of scissors, you can easily cut discs off the end of the rubber pipe -  these discs are the perfect size for Happ Competition Joystick spacers/shims!

I put a cut-to-size rubber disc under a 20mm steel washer (pictured earlier).  The spring then sits on top of the washer.  This makes the joystick a tiny bit stiffer, but reduces the bounce a lot.  Now much of the bounciness has been elimiated.

You can cut foam rubber discs of different width from the pipe, trim then and experiment with what feels best for you!

Note that the rubber pipe I am talking about is a high density foam, possibly neoprene (though I'm not 100% sure), which should be hardy enough to last a normal joystick lifetime.