Author Topic: Weak flippers - To rebuild or not rebuild (Read 7407 times)

More Cowbell · « **on:** November 19, 2007, 12:41:00 pm »

I have a Jurassic Park pinball that has a weak right flipper and a sticky upper right flipper. Left flipper seems ok. I've read about two methods of repairing weak flippers...
1) Buy a rebuild kit and rebuild the flippers. Seems like this would work for the sticky flipper but not so much if the flipper is just weak.
2) PinLed has an updated flipper board that they say will increase the power and thus make weak flippers strong again. Does anyone have experience with these?

Which of these should I try first? Other options?

ChadTower · « **Reply #1 on:** November 19, 2007, 12:45:06 pm »

Why would you increase the power to a worn out flipper mech? That won't help you.

Rebuild the flippers. If it has never been done it needs it anyway and it is very simple to do.

More Cowbell · « **Reply #2 on:** November 19, 2007, 04:05:14 pm »

Ordered rebuild kit through pinballlife.com. What an awesome site. I got a ton of great stuff at reasonable prices. They're right here in town too so if I ever have a huge order I can simply pick up. Woot.

SirPeale · « **Reply #3 on:** November 19, 2007, 04:07:39 pm »

Agreed. Rebuild.

edit: you posted just as I did.

Though if you don't get the parts to rebuild right away, you may want to disassemble the assembly to see if there are any obvious reasons for drag. It could just be dirty. But on something that old you definitely want to rebuild.

I've done quite a few of them. If you have any questions, let me know.

Oh...one thing you may want to invest in is a set of bent needle nose pliers.

ChadTower · « **Reply #4 on:** November 19, 2007, 04:10:20 pm »

Terry rules. I mean, rules. Best niche web vendor I've ever dealt with. Goes beyond the extra mile to keep repeat customers happy.

More Cowbell · « **Reply #5 on:** November 19, 2007, 05:23:54 pm »

Thanks, Peale. I may have some bent needle noses around, if not, Home Depot here I come. Some of the prices on that website are like 50% of what they are elsewhere. Crazy!

If rebuild doesn't fix, what next? New coils?

ChadTower · « **Reply #6 on:** November 19, 2007, 08:02:28 pm »

You haven't described the problem.

Pull up the playfield and move the mech around with your fingers. If there is any slop, if it moves more than a fraction of an inch in any direction that it wasn't designed for, you need a rebuild.

Odds are very high that just swapping out the coil sleeve and cleaning the coil out will solve at least half of your power problem.

nostrebor · « **Reply #7 on:** November 20, 2007, 10:50:40 am »

You have a Class of 1812 and a Jurassic Park? Only? That's weird. I have the same 2 pins.

Definitely rebuild those assemblies first. Freshened flippers and a clean and wax will make that JP too fast to play.

More Cowbell · « **Reply #8 on:** November 20, 2007, 11:11:25 am »

Quote from: nostrebor on November 20, 2007, 10:50:40 am

You have a Class of 1812 and a Jurassic Park? Only? That's weird. I have the same 2 pins.

Bizarre! Good choices, they're both really fun pins. Congratulations to us both!

Hopefully, I'll have the rebuild kits tomorrow so I can do them over the long weekend.

One other question on the Jurassic Park... sometimes when I hit the ball up the ramp, the game will act like I just lost a ball. Flippers go dead, ball advances, and another ball shoots out while the original ball is still on the playfield and draining. It doesn't always happen so it's kind of like Russian Roullette when you go up the ramp. Any ideas what could be causing this? If I could get the weak flippers hepped up and this ramp issue resolved and get a free working Twilight Zone pin, I'd be all set.

ChadTower · « **Reply #9 on:** November 20, 2007, 11:13:37 am »

Don't know the layout of that playfield. Are there any switches on the ramp or perhaps just underneath it?

nostrebor · « **Reply #10 on:** November 20, 2007, 12:12:52 pm »

There is a roll under switch at the first third of the ramp, a switch at the top of the ramp, a diverter, and switches after the diverter.

Where on the ramp is it freaking out?

ChadTower · « **Reply #11 on:** November 20, 2007, 12:15:23 pm »

It is probably one of those switches then, could be a short that only happens if the ball hits it just right. Start up a game, launch the ball, pick it up with your hand, and tweak those ramp switches a bit to see if you can reproduce the issue.

More Cowbell · « **Reply #12 on:** November 20, 2007, 12:35:29 pm »

It's the first switch where the Jurassic Park gates are. It seems to happen more when the ball goes through with some force as opposed to just going up part way and rolling back down. Why can't it freak out and give me a million points or something instead of taking a ball away. I could live with that. I'll check the switch and see if there is anything out of the ordinary.

One final issue...
When a ball kicks out into the firing lane to start the game or at each new ball, the kicker keeps trying to kick another ball out five more times (no ball there so it doesn't actually kick a ball out). Then it releases a ball into the area where the kicker is before it will let you fire the gun and shoot the ball onto the playfield. I've checked the switches in the trough with a multimeter and in the diagnostic tests and they all seem to be working. The only other things I can think of is the switch in the kicker portion or the release lever to allow the ball into the kicker area. You'd think that it would kick a ball into the lane and the switch there would say "Word! There's a ball here, don't kick any more out here, Dawg!" But apparently, the game isn't that smart or that hip to talk all ghetto.

ChadTower · « **Reply #13 on:** November 20, 2007, 12:37:57 pm »

Sounds like you could have something in your trough switch circuit that may be causing both issues.

nostrebor · « **Reply #14 on:** November 20, 2007, 01:25:21 pm »

Yeah.

JP is notorious for having trough switch problems and trough wear problems. An RGP search on google will give you a bit of light reading on the subject.

SirPeale · « **Reply #15 on:** November 22, 2007, 06:09:04 am »

Put it into switch test and start testing all the switches methodically.

More Cowbell · « **Reply #16 on:** January 31, 2008, 11:16:49 am »

Resurrecting this old thread with an update. I FINALLY got around to rebuilding the flippers on my Jurassic Park pin. First the upper sticky flipper two days ago. Worked like a charm! It's like the flipper is brand new. Then did the lower right weak flipper last night and had my doubts on it's effectiveness since there really wasn't anything that looked or felt wrong with the flipper, it was just weak. Again, worked like a charm! I ordered the parts to rebuild the left flipper too since the right one is so great now and it's so easy to do. I'm so happy that it fixed the issues. I also figured out what is causing the ramp/ball drain issue, there is a diode missing from the Control Room switch and the wire is plugged into the rail that the diode should go on. I noticed this when the wire fell off of the the switch and the ramp started working fine while the Control Room stopped working. Ordered a bunch of diodes too. Now I just need to figure out the trough switch issue. Fortunately, that issue only causes a delay before I can shoot (about 10 seconds) so it's not life or death. Thanks for the help on all of this.

grantspain · « **Reply #17 on:** January 31, 2008, 03:16:17 pm »

the problem with the trough kicker running all the time is either;
a ball sticking in the trough
the shooter lane switch broken
a broken switch in the trough
now its a long time since i worked on jp but did it have the two red opto's in the trough kicker assem?

More Cowbell · « **Reply #18 on:** January 31, 2008, 04:30:07 pm »

No optos. I'm guessing it's a trough switch issue as some of the diodes look kind of smushed. I planned on removin g all of the diodes and replacing. If that doesn't fix the problem then, dammit, $.60 cents down the drain but at least I'll know it's not the switches. I'll move on from there. Since the flippers worked so well, my assumption is I have the golden touch and I will get lucky.

SirPeale · « **Reply #19 on:** January 31, 2008, 04:59:03 pm »

When you said you planned on replacing all the diodes, you didn't mean *all* the diodes, did you?

More Cowbell · « **Reply #20 on:** January 31, 2008, 05:03:53 pm »

Haha. No, just the ones on the trough switches. There are 6 or 7 of them so it shouldn't take too long. I figure, for $.60 cents, it's worth taking a chance that it fixes the problem.

grantspain · « **Reply #21 on:** January 31, 2008, 05:09:02 pm »

your switch test will prove the trough switch operation,i think its gonna be wear on the trough itself-after years of play the balls wear grooves in the metal and can just sit there.
its an easy fix as you can file out grooves.
this was extremely common with bally/william pins like indiana jones

ChadTower · « **Reply #22 on:** February 01, 2008, 09:59:55 am »

Quote from: More Cowbell on January 31, 2008, 05:03:53 pm

Haha. No, just the ones on the trough switches. There are 6 or 7 of them so it shouldn't take too long. I figure, for $.60 cents, it's worth taking a chance that it fixes the problem.

No, it's not. Learn to test a diode. If you want to own pinball machines you'd better learn to test components or you're never going to be able to troubleshoot anything. A diode test takes 2 seconds once you have desoldered one end from the circuit.

More Cowbell · « **Reply #23 on:** February 01, 2008, 01:36:16 pm »

Quote from: ChadTower on February 01, 2008, 09:59:55 am

Quote from: More Cowbell on January 31, 2008, 05:03:53 pm
Haha. No, just the ones on the trough switches. There are 6 or 7 of them so it shouldn't take too long. I figure, for $.60 cents, it's worth taking a chance that it fixes the problem.
No, it's not. Learn to test a diode. If you want to own pinball machines you'd better learn to test components or you're never going to be able to troubleshoot anything. A diode test takes 2 seconds once you have desoldered one end from the circuit.

Can you test a diode with a standard multimeter? If not, then desoldering the other side and soldering a new one on will take me about 5 seconds each.

ChadTower · « **Reply #24 on:** February 01, 2008, 01:44:38 pm »

Quote from: More Cowbell on February 01, 2008, 01:36:16 pm

Can you test a diode with a standard multimeter?

Yes.

SirPeale · « **Reply #25 on:** February 01, 2008, 01:45:15 pm »

Quote from: More Cowbell on February 01, 2008, 01:36:16 pm

Can you test a diode with a standard multimeter? If not, then desoldering the other side and soldering a new one on will take me about 5 seconds each.

Every standard digital multimeter I've seen has a diode check.

ChadTower · « **Reply #26 on:** February 01, 2008, 01:52:43 pm »

Quote from: Peale on February 01, 2008, 01:45:15 pm

Every standard digital multimeter I've seen has a diode check.

My pocket DMM was weird on that. It would display junction drop voltage rather than do a continuity check in both directions - but it use such a low current that it would only display like 0.4v, not a full 0.7v, and made me think a lot of diodes were leaky. Eventually someone explained to me what was going on and I switched to doing two continuity checks manually.

More Cowbell · « **Reply #27 on:** February 05, 2008, 10:24:19 am »

I received the diodes and another flipper rebuild kit from pinballlife.com yesterday. The flipper rebuild kit was just the coil sleeve, the flipper arm holder thingy, leaf switch, and a new link assembly. Essentially all the moving parts. Rebuilt the last flipper and it's now working great, so now all three are fantastic. I can't get over how much they improved and how easy and cheap it was.
The really great progress was in the ramp and trough areas. I replaced the diode on the control room switch and it fixed the ball-dying-when-it-goes-up-the-ramp issue. That was huge because it took away from the gameplay before but now it's perfect. The other big score was on the trough firing too much issue. I checked all the diodes in the trough and they all looked fine. I then found the switch on the side where the kicker shoots a ball into the lane. That switch had a diode that was disconnected on one end! I resoldered that and it now seems to work fine. Interestingly, it took a few games to work out the kinks. I'm guessing the board logic tells the game to disregard that switch when it doesn't see it for 50 games. Now my only remaining issue is that the T-Rex won't eat the ball. He goes down on it (giggle) but doesn't swallow it (chuckle). I have a new post that is supposed to attach the jaw to a coil but I need to figure out how it all hooks up. At least all of the gameplay issues are resolved.

SirPeale · « **Reply #28 on:** February 05, 2008, 03:37:17 pm »

Yes, on some machines if it doesn't see a switch activate within a certain number of games, it reports it as an error. Or if it expects a certain input/output when a feature is activated it'll disable certain things. Designed that way to keep the machine earning money.

ChadTower · « **Reply #29 on:** February 05, 2008, 04:14:26 pm »

Usually indicated by what is called a "credit dot" on the display.

More Cowbell · « **Reply #30 on:** February 06, 2008, 10:52:26 am »

My scores are improving now that I have complete gameplay. Not great, just improving.
320 million last night in 3 tries. I'm gunning for that 500 million top spot.

More Cowbell · « **Reply #31 on:** February 07, 2008, 11:31:29 am »

Finally got around to working on the T-Rex. I had to kind of figure it out as I went along since the schematics for the T-Rex were cryptic at best. Once I took off the "head" I found the coil and figured out how everything fit together. Attached the new jaw bar that connects to the coil plunger, replaced all of the parts, and fired it up. The jaw was working but was snapping just before it got to the ball. I adjusted the switches and it now works perfectly. It's so gratifying figuring out these issues. My wife freaked when she saw him eat the ball the first time she played it last night. The only thing still not working quite right is the trough seems to be only partially working right. It will still keep trying to kick a ball out, just not as much as before and sometimes it works fine. Weird and could be a tough one to figure out.

More Cowbell · « **Reply #32 on:** February 11, 2008, 10:35:28 am »

Success! Finally figured out the trough issue. I got sick of trying to figure it out mechanicallysince I couldn't identify any issues with the trough or the switches themselves. I went into switch test and one of the tests cycles through all of the switches that are currently on. All of them looked correct... except one. Galimymus. Why would that switch be on? I located it on the board and the switch/diode was smashed which kept it on. I straightened it out and it no longer showed as being on. Could it be that easy? No. It fired the ball out correctly, but any time the ball hit a couple of certain targets, it fired off all kinds of stuff. Switch test again. When I hit those certain switches, everything under them in the switch matrix fired. Finally zeroed in on a trough switch that was smashed a bit (trough switch 2, so it didn't really effect gameplay since there is usually a ball there anyway). Fixed that up and everything is now working great. Awesome feeling to get it figured out and working like it should.

Level42 · « **Reply #33 on:** February 11, 2008, 01:56:44 pm »

Congrats ! I can imagine how you felt

There's a stack of issues to solve on my Getaway, but I know it'll be worth it.

More Cowbell · « **Reply #34 on:** February 13, 2008, 05:27:57 pm »

Yeah, some of that I figured out just by examining and trying things. I shorted the end stroke switches and that fixed one of the flippers but that still left two weak ones (one was obviously rubbing as it would stick at the top of it's stroke, not electrical, mechanical). I'm happy that spending less than $40 in parts and learning how to do it resolved the problems. I feel a lot more knowledgable overall about flippers and switches.

nostrebor · « **Reply #35 on:** February 13, 2008, 06:28:30 pm »

There's nothing wrong with putting a rebuild in the flippers on a pin you just got. Unless you just don't have food money. JP is a fast, fun pin. It needs to have snappy flippers to not suck. Now toss 3 coats of wax on that joker and try for that 500 mil.

Congrats on getting your issues ironed out. I bought my JP with the intention of flipping it. It's still in my gameroom, and is actually the most played of the 2 pins. I'm sucky at pinball, and am just now able to get a CHAOS multiball going on a regular basis. It is a highlight of the day to rack up a few fast games on that pin.

advocate · « **Reply #36 on:** February 22, 2008, 05:05:05 pm »

Quote from: ChadTower on November 19, 2007, 04:10:20 pm

Terry rules. I mean, rules. Best niche web vendor I've ever dealt with. Goes beyond the extra mile to keep repeat customers happy.

I have to Agree.

Terry is an absolutely fantastic individual and company.

When I had an issue with a Trackball, he helped me by E-mail and then I sent it back for him and he Immediately, Let me say Immediately Twice, He took care of the problem and sent it back to me.

He even credited me for my shipping cost of the Trackball to him, which was completely Unnecessary, and I didn't even request it..

Go to His Site at : www.tornadoterrys.com/surplus.htm

His stuiff is the cheapest, but I would even be willing to pay extra just to deal with him.

Terry stands behind every transaction, and he will not stop until you are satisfied.

Jacob

ChadTower · « **Reply #37 on:** February 22, 2008, 10:11:35 pm »

Is that the same Terry from Pinball Life?


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