Politics and Religion access - opt in, opt out, or regular access?

[shmokes]

Hey look at it this way, if i didn't like you in some odd way i wouldn't have taken the time to make fun of you and would have just told you to ---fudgesicle--- off.   

What you can't tell a guy to ---fudgesicle--- off unless you dislike him?   

[meismr]

I usually don't chime in on these things, but I like my forums like I like my government...  as unobtrusive as possible.  If you don't like something don't read/watch/listen to it.  Sometimes I read the P & R stuff and I think some (ok... a lot of) people are morons in there and say some really insulting stuff.  But guess what...  I went in there.  Running to a moderator saying someone should keep me from reading something screams of a lack of responsibility/self control.  As far as the RSS feed goes; if someone knows how to set up an RSS feed then they should know how to mod it... 

[shardian]

OK, I have been reading P&R threads just to see what the current "situation" is.
Take a look at the first page of this thread. Now I stopped there, so I can only assume pages 2 and three get worse.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=73351.msg757151#msg757151

Ok, we have people insulting each other in every post, we have people disrespecting the loss of another member. And best of all, PBJ was not anywhere near this thread. Jeez, people get banned if they toss around that crap anywhere else on the forum.

So remind me, why should I have to see a forum that violates the rules of the forum on quite a regular basis?

[tommy]

I can see where these guys are coming from and used to say the same things. Just don't click on the thing and don't read that section and all that. All we are saying is block us from that section, that is not hurting anyone in anyway. I'm not trying to get it removed altogether from the board but just for me.

[meismr]

Just so we're clear: You chose to click on a forum and start reading things, and that's how you came to the conclusion that you "have" to see it.
If you don't like a topic, then don't read it.  The responsibility is your own.

[WunderCade]

So remind me, why should I have to see a forum that violates the rules of the forum on quite a regular basis?

You shouldn't have to see what's in P'n'R and certainly you will not if don't click on that forum. As far as the relaxed rules on that forum....well, it is P'n'R....I think the premise alone precludes regular norms of civility...it's simply gonna get more heated there due to the nature of the content.

[Kremmit]

Voting for "Opt Out".

Just so it's clear where it's coming from, I'm not a fan of a lot the things that go on in the P'nR section; that's why I'm glad those things have moved to the P'nR section.  I practically never went in there before it went on "ask for access" status, I didn't ask for access when it did.

-BUT-

That doesn't mean I think it should be hidden.  If it's hidden, as Schmokes has pointed out, there won't be any site traffic, and the board will wither an die.  Despite my ill-thought-out post a few days ago, I don't want that to happen.  If it dies, those topics will either make their way back onto the rest of the forum, or they'll become de facto banned topics.  I don't want to see them back on the rest of the board, and it would suck for the people that want to participate in them if they were banned completely.

So, if P'nR is to stay, then it should stay as open and easy to find as possible, in order to attract more traffic. 

-BUT-

A lot of people obviously hate it's very existence, or cannot control themselves sufficiently to stay out.  If the board's to be available, these people will be happier and cause less trouble for the people in P'nR if they can opt out and pretend it's not there.  Since Saint's opened this poll, he's obviously willing to give those people the ability to opt out.

So, the "opt-out" option should make the following groups happy:

P'nR people
People who want P'nR to stay in P'nR
People who want to never see P'nR

The only group I can think of that it won't make happy is:

People who hate P'nR so badly they won't rest until the forum and all posts on the topics that live there are removed and outlawed.

...that's like forum genocide or something, so those people are like Nazis.  Don't you P'nR guys all compare people you disagree with to Nazis all the time? 

[shardian]

Opting out doesn't hurt anyone, and it doesn't hurt P&R in the least. It can be left open, and there can be a sticky at the top that explains you can opt out if you prefer. MOST members of this forum don't visit P&R or the "Forum" forum - they don't even know this conversation is going on. Why is it such a big deal  to not allow opting out that you have to argue about it? I mean really? Give up the "just don't click on it" argument. It is possible to have an opt out, it gets your precious board back, everyone is happy. Instead of dragging this to eternity, just move on and shut up and let us "P&R relapse prone" members  , as you seem to be portraying it, not have to see that irritating forum.                         

And to be perfectly clear, I used to be a fairly frequent P&R poster. It was an interesting place, and I did learn a bit thru that forum. Unfortunately there is a very small handful of people in there who make it their life's goal to tick off people who are trying to have intelligent debate, this devolving the whole discussion. They get dealt with everywhere else on the boards, but not there. It is ---smurfing--- ridiculous.

If it isn't going to be moderated like the rest of the site, then it should be an optional forum.

[saint]

That does beg the question, should it be moderated better? I do deliberately avoid moderating that forum as kind of a zinc to keep rancor out of the other forums, but that may be a contributor to the decline of that forum...

[Kremmit]

and there can be a sticky at the top that explains you can opt out if you prefer.

I like that bit.  It's a bit like the casinos putting the phone# for Gambler's Anonymous on all their literature, which always seemed kind of weird to me, but if you don't have it stickied, then will noobs even know they can opt out?

[missioncontrol]

and there can be a sticky at the top that explains you can opt out if you prefer.

I like that bit.  It's a bit like the casinos putting the phone# for Gambler's Anonymous on all their literature, which always seemed kind of weird to me, but if you don't have it stickied, then will noobs even know they can opt out?

isn't the FAQ stickied on the main page? and we all know how well it's read

[ChadTower]

Just so we're clear: You chose to click on a forum and start reading things, and that's how you came to the conclusion that you "have" to see it.
If you don't like a topic, then don't read it.  The responsibility is your own.

Now elaborate on how that applies to the other means of accessing threads that this forum provides.  The main forum page is not the only way to do it.

[tommy]

Just so we're clear: You chose to click on a forum and start reading things, and that's how you came to the conclusion that you "have" to see it.
If you don't like a topic, then don't read it.  The responsibility is your own.

Now elaborate on how that applies to the other means of accessing threads that this forum provides.  The main forum page is not the only way to do it.

[shmokes]

This may sound strange, coming from me, but I wouldn't mind a heavier moderator presence.  I think there should be room for the heat to turn up -- more latitude than the rest of the site, but I wouldn't mind having it toned back a bit from the free-for-all it has devolved into lately.  The place just isn't attracting enough users to make it as great as it once was (well . . . it'll never be as great as it was when it was part of the EE forum, but someday I'll get over that      )

And Chad, all I can say is try to be a little gracious.  I understand that you have very recently decided to boycot PnR, but what's up with deciding that now that you suddenly don't personally enjoy it anymore you think that all vestiges of it should be crushed out of existence.  People enjoy different things.  You didn't have a problem with RSS for PnR when you used it post 30-40 messages an hour.  Where was your concern for people being subjected to our horrible thread-titles then?  Chill out, man.  You're going to be okay.

[ChadTower]

...you think that all vestiges of it should be crushed out of existence.

You throw around the word disingenuous quite a bit.  Toss it at a mirror.  I have not said anything of this sort.

[shmokes]

RSS in particular is one I think saint would want to pay attention to as any external service that wants to offer a BYOAC feed is going to be getting it through RSS.  Would we really want someone somewhere with a scrolling BYOAC topic feed getting all of the nastiness that will come up when the '08 election starts?


(yes, I realize the irony of being the Chief Kicker and saying that)

I apologize if I misunderstood you, but I took this to mean that you thought PnR should be crippled so that it would be invisible (as it has been) and incompatible with stuff like RSS and the like.

[ChadTower]

Not making it available in RSS does not cripple PnR.  I didn't even say I would like it eliminated from RSS.  I suggested saint put some thought into the issue.  I don't know if there are any external sites taking RSS feeds from BYOAC... only saint and SirWoogie would know that for sure, and as site owners, it is their choice as to whether or not any third party sites (if there are any) would be feeding PnR posts.  I chose that phrasing very carefully.

I'm also not saying that PnR should be invisible by default.  I have stated clearly, I think, that I'd like it to be opt out, which makes clear visibility the default.

You're an IT/web/admin guy just like I am... we both know active opt out is rarely actually used by much of a site membership.  Most people usually can't be bothered.



EDIT:

Let me approach this from your side.  You want it open and available to all... great.  What is the benefit of having it how it is now?  What good is it having it open for all to read but only for some to actually post?  Why is that useful?

[tommy]

I think most of the hard core PnR's want a non-modded no interference section where they can do what they please and not have to worry about rules.

[shmokes]

I think opt-out is perfectly fine.  In the alternative, though, having it visible at least means that people will see it and if they are interested, will opt-in.  Nobody will ever opt into something that they don't know is there.  I have memberships to quite a few places cos I saw something that interested me and realized that I had to register if I wanted to participate.

[patrickl]

I think most of the hard core PnR's want a non-modded no interference section where they can do what they please and not have to worry about rules.

Actually I'd rather have some rules. I guess a political debate can get a bit more heated than a regular EE thread, but sometimes it's really ridiculously foul.

[WunderCade]

I think most of the hard core PnR's want a non-modded no interference section where they can do what they please and not have to worry about rules.

Kinda like a section where adults can have a frank discussion and simultaneously be mature enough not to get their wittle feewings hurt?....wow....never thought about it like that. Cutting edge indeed.

[tommy]

If you took the people who visit the PnR section and put them in a real life room i don't think much discussing would be going on, it would be a room full of people fist fighting.

[ChadTower]

I tend to agree there.  You'd only get away with calling a man a --cream-filled twinkie-- IRL twice at the most before you were spitting teeth.  In PnR it gets tossed around like a proper noun.

[FrizzleFried]

If people in the jukebox forum were belligerent, aggressive, and abusive, no one would blame you for wanting the jukebox forum gone.

I don't want the PnR forum gone for everyone... just for me.  I have given up on it being a place worth being and on it being a positive contribution to BYOAC.

No Chad,  you just got tired of people handing your ass to you in P&R....

If you can't stand the heat,  stay out of the kitchen.  No need to excavate the kitchen from the house.

[FrizzleFried]

I tend to agree there.  You'd only get away with calling a man a --cream-filled twinkie-- IRL twice at the most before you were spitting teeth.  In PnR it gets tossed around like a proper noun.

Chad...stop being a --cream-filled twinkie--...

 

[ChadTower]

Chad...stop being a ---meecrob-bag---...

 

That's one, but given your gigantism, I'll let you have three.  Now go back up your beanstalk before I change my mind.

 

[shardian]

Chad...stop being a ---meecrob-bag---...

 

That's one, but given your gigantism, I'll let you have three.  Now go back up your beanstalk before I change my mind.

 

You're only a month away from playing shape remember? He only gets two.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, but as time goes on, I'm a lot farther from being 25.   

[FrizzleFried]

Yeah, but as time goes on, I'm a lot farther from being 25.   

...but at almost 36 I ain't no spring chick myself.  Hell,  I get winded after 30 seconds of strenuous activity. 

[saint]

...but at almost 36 I ain't no spring chick myself.  Hell,  I get winded after 30 seconds of strenuous activity. 

Must play havoc with the love life!

[FrizzleFried]

...but at almost 36 I ain't no spring chick myself.  Hell,  I get winded after 30 seconds of strenuous activity. 

Must play havoc with the love life!

Sheeeeiiiiiiittt... 20 seconds is all I need to make my woman happy!   

[missioncontrol]

...but at almost 36 I ain't no spring chick myself.  Hell,  I get winded after 30 seconds of strenuous activity. 

Must play havoc with the love life!

Sheeeeiiiiiiittt... 20 seconds is all I need to make my woman happy!   

yep, because she's happy you stopped touching her 10 seconds ago

[ChadTower]

The first ten seconds are all "ew put those back on" and "ow my leg doesn't bend like that" and the next 8seconds are when he gets his groove on... the final two are all about her, baby.  That's her time.

[WunderCade]

20 seconds???

Does that include cuddling 

[danny_galaga]

looks like someone has opted me out in PNR regardless, i have no access   

[patrickl]

Cool, I was "opted out" too 

[saint]

Uh... think I broke something   Will look at it shortly.

[fredster]

Maybe you could opt it out as an option from the main menu.  Like one of those "are you sure???" options on that ONE board.

Click it, and it comes up with a menu to view it or not.  Once there, you could have a 'hide forum' button on that one board.


If you want to write in it, you have to request it with a pm as outlined. 

[WunderCade]

Judging from the ghost town over there, everyone has been "opted out" for the time being.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Uh... think I broke something   Will look at it shortly.

Actually, I'd say you fixed something. Que sera sera...