Robotron Joysticks.... Best alternative ?

[maxmix]

Reading a lot of the old Robotron posts..... Great info....

What would you recommend buying for a new cabinet build....

As close as the originals ?

maxmix

PS Any links would be great.... I did have a look at these....

These are 4/8 way.... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290147081974

[Jeff AMN]

DO NOT buy those sticks!

There are a lot of options for joysticks, but the Sanwas are amazing for comfort and accuracy. Some find them a little too clicky, but you don't notice during gameplay.

[maxmix]

Hi Jeff

Thanks.... Do you have a link for what I should go for.... I'm in Scotland, UK but Paypal is my best option
for buying from the USA

maxmix

PS I have the Blue Translucents coming so I really want red ball top....

[NoOne=NBA=]

If you want the exact feel of an original, get Wico 8-ways.

You will definitely want something with round restrictors.
U-360's, P-360's, or Sanwas with round restrictors would be good substitutes.
Happ Supers would be good, but not as good as the above sticks.

After that, you get into square restricted sticks.
Most of those favor the diagonals, and don't rotate in a circle nicely like the originals did.
They will still play OK, but won't allow the fluid movement that circular restrictors will.

[Chunce DeLeone]

Where did you get the blue translucents?

[CheffoJeffo]

I had an answer in mind when I saw this thread, but NoOne=NBA='s answer is better than the one that I would have given.

 

[maxmix]

Chunce.... I had answered your PM.... Here though for all.... (And I got them posted to UK no probs)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250165443216&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=015

maxmix

[fjl]

How do the Sanwas with the octagonal restrictors feel?

[Xiaou2]

efjayel,

  Robotron is a game where split seconds matter.   Your reaction times
have to be darn near perfect and you are almost doing the impossible
at every second of play  (if you spend some time with the game and get
good)

 Anything that causes a slight varience of timing or loss of control
will cause very bad results in Robotron.    This includes Octagonal
restriction.   Because the additional friction, and awkward 'sticky spots'
will cause a slowdown of your joystick motions... which will lead to your
untimely death much sooner.

 True Wico 8 ways are the way to go for this game  Imop.   I dont think
anything else can really compare in control, feel, throw, restriction, and
reaction time.

[genesim]

While I don't device the accuracy claims.   My rig has:

Happs Rotaries on Player one, with Supers on Player two.   Both have very similar feel and work fine for high scores.

So can't see how one arcade stick is SOOOO much better then the other one.

I have competitions, happs perfect 360, Ultimate(hated them), and ultimarc 4 way.   Most can be played well, but I like my current feel the best....and of course being able to use player one for other thins too!

[RobotronNut]

if you want to get the highest score possible, you need: (1) round restriction, so you can make the sweeping movements that are so essential to shooting in robotron, and (2) quick engagement (= small central "dead zone"), for maneuvering in tight spots.

the original robotron joysticks were 8-way, leaf switch, rubber-grommet wicos with round restriction. since they are based on leaf switches, you can adjust the engagement to be very quick by bending the leaf switches. many people swear by them, but i don't like them, for several reasons: (1) i don't like the feel of the rubber grommets, (2) rubber degenerates and nobody has made the rubber grommets for years, which means all the existing rubber grommets in the world are already pretty "old," (3) you have to tweak the leaf switches and occasionally re-tweak them, (4) the leafs also eventually wear out, and no new leafs are being produced either.

i've tried many joysticks, and the best i've found for robotron are happ perfect 360's with kowal's mod. there are links to threads on kowal's mod in the page in my signature.

if you're looking for low cost, i find happ supers to play very well, although i don't like the microswitch feel at all. some have also reported good results with round-restricted U360's, but i haven't gotten around to trying them yet.

in my experience, differences that may seem very subtle can make a huge difference in your score. for me, 2 sticks can feel pretty similar, and even play pretty similarly in the lower levels of robotron, but when i get to higher levels, there's a very noticeable difference, and one gives me average scores that are double what i get with the other one.

[telengard]

As mentioned, I'd get the Wico 8-ways (red too if you can hehe).  It's worth the investment if you are going to invest the time and $$ into a dedicated Robotron 2084 cabinet.  Also, if you are going to have a wood panel, I believe the Robotron sticks are a little taller than most.  Can't remember the exact details.

I at one point had the 360 ones and I have a few issues with them.  One is the feel, two was w/ certain games (not necessarily Robotron) when I'd let go of the joystick it would travel such that it would trigger the opposite direction.  Does the mentioned mod fix that?  This did mostly show up on 4 ways games though that involved one press to do an action like Tetris, etc.  I don't remember it being an issue w/ Robotron.  I just didn't personally like the feel.

I do hope that at some point, some kind soul repros the grommets.  I have enough extra leafs to last 2 lifetimes so I'm good there.   

~telengard

[RandyT]

I'm not a real heavy player, but I like the game.  My all time best is ~242,000 points and that was with a pair of 49-ways with GP-Wiz49 interfaces in 8-way mode.

How does that compare with the scores achievable with other setups?

RandyT

[RobotronNut]

... How does that compare with the scores achievable with other setups?

Roboton scores vary greatly from player to player, depending on experience, raw reaction time, etc. the best can play "forever" (the score turns over at 10M). i'm not that good. at the moment, the biggest limitation on my high scores is my ability to see (by the time i get to the higher levels, i start perspiring so much my glasses are constantly getting fogged)! 

i started out with stock P360s with the large metal SlikStik handles. after getting used to them, i'd get to 400K-500K every couple of games , and my high score was 640K. after applying kowal's mod and installing shorter shafts and lighter springs, my scores just about immediately doubled.

since then, i've been improving slowly. i almost never score less than 1M. my average game is 1M to 1.5M, and my high score is 3.11M on level 117. i feel like i'm getting close to being able to play forever.

strategy makes a huge difference in robotron. i'd love to see some robotron wizard write a strategy guide, with some sample videos. here are some tips, off the top of my head:

• learn to move in any direction while shooting in any other direction.
• you have to balance not getting killed with grabbing as many humans as possible. if you prioritize avoiding death too highly, you won't pick up enough humans, and you'll run out of lives too quickly. often, it's better to throw caution to the wind and charge into some dangerous situation, if there's the possibility of picking up some humans, even though you may very well get killed.
• when a lot is going on, it often helps to sweep back and forth with your shooting hand, rather than shooting in the same direction for longer periods.
• learn how to survive forever with all bad guys dead except one enforcer. you can "orbit" around him without shooting, while you pick up any remaining humans. this is useful on many levels and will boost your scores, especially:
• in the first brain wave, avoid all humans and protect mikey at all costs until all the brains are dead. then kill everything except one enforcer. then pick up all the humans for huge points. you have to do all that without getting killed once. if you get killed, then go back to the default strategy of grabbing humans, instead of leaving them until the end.
• in waves 9, 19, 29, 39, etc.: try to blast your way through to a wall and orbit around the seething mass of grunts.
• you don't have to go barreling through a human to pick him up. if you imagine you're playing "tag" with them, you'll pick up more humans faster and have more time to dodge and shoot bad guys.
• in the higher levels, when there's so much stuff on the screen that everything (except you) slows down, at the beginning of each level, try to find places where you can run thru and grab humans without having to shoot your way thru. you can often gobble up a lot of points that way, before things get dicey.

anybody else have any good tips to add, or pointers to useful web pages?

[Donkey_Kong]

I'm at like 275K, my 11 year old has a high score of 342K. My kid :haha: @ me. That kid eventually beats me at everything! Except for Donkey Kong and Mspacman. :haha: @ my kid. We never get to play anymore cause we still don't have a new monitor for our cab. 

Me and the kid...
 

All games :haha: at us


Oh yea: We have a pair of U360's...which are pretty sweet for Robotron with the round restrictor installed. Never tried any other sticks for the game, except the originals sometime in the late 80's, or early 90's.

[Xiaou2]

I think the comparison is when you take your Own personal ability, and compare
with different types of controllers.

 My friend has a shop with many classics.   Me and a friend played his Robotron
machine for a few hours each weekend for a short while.

 I got up to like level 30... and he got to level 34.  (unsure the points)
This was on easy difficulty, but even then, Robotron is never really easy.   
Just easier to get extra men.

 Anyway, I then went to a friends house and used his mame machine to
fire up a game of Robotron.   He had happs supers in it.  It was horrendous.
The lag in my responses were way too slow - as the throw was way too
long.   I could barely get past level 5 with them.  Pathetic and too
frustrating to even bother with.

[RandyT]

I think the comparison is when you take your Own personal ability, and compare with different types of controllers.

I have to agree.  I think someone having the name "RobotronNut" is going to have some pretty good scores no matter what .

I can't imagine playing the game to a score of a million or better.  I'd be a wreck afterwards.   

I just noticed I did about 45k better on the blue version.  Anyone know what the differences are?

RandyT

[hillbilly]

I did up my cabinet as a multiwilliams recently using the metal control panel arcadeshop sells. I have some J-stiks from Ultimarc and they are great for 4 way games but made robotron very hard with the diamond restrictor

i have since replaced the restrictor with a circle one for a sanwa from lizard lick and a big improvement in control. my scores went up, I can only get 300k in robotron but it is getting easier and easier to get that score.

what it comes down too is ramping up enough lives in the brain waves to last you to the next brain wave. The game is feast and famine like that. Once you can do that you can pretty much roll the game i would say.

[NoOne=NBA=]

I've had opportunity to play an Ultracade lately, as well as a Robotron/Joust reunion machine.
The Wicos on the original were much better than the sticks on either of those machines.
I can only seem to get about 150k with the new ones, vs. 500k+ on an original machine.

I haven't tried them, but would bet that the 49-ways would work well with mapping all the way to the inner ring.
That would let them be super responsive with minimal movement.

[genesim]

I think someone having the name "RobotronNut" is going to have some pretty good scores no matter what .

I think this is key to the whole thing.   We all can have our standbys.   I hate Perfect 360's because of the absence of clicking...others like it.

It all comes down to practice and dedication.   IMHO, you don't even need two sticks.   Maping buttons correctly can do it too.    It definetly feels more intuitive to people that grew up only hitting buttons with their right hand.    That not being me though.   I prefer dual sticks and that is why I have them.   Then again, I am anal about having the rotaries on the left stick, so there you go.

Supers/Rotaries, feel so close in design, it just made sense to me.   My only problem is the fact that I always wonder how long the soldering jobs will hold up....forever???    Don't know, but they seem solid now.   Hopefully long after I will ever care about it.

[RobotronNut]

... w/ certain games (not necessarily Robotron) when I'd let go of the joystick it would travel such that it would trigger the opposite direction.  Does the mentioned mod fix that? ...

i'm not sure. i'm not sure i ever let go of the joystick in any 8-way games. the kowal mod might make that problem worse, since it makes engagement quicker.

I think the comparison is when you take your Own personal ability, and compare with different types of controllers.

I have to agree.  I think someone having the name "RobotronNut" is going to have some pretty good scores no matter what.

didn't mean to be a show-off... i still have a long way to go. for me, at least, the modded P360s doubled my scores. for more details, see this post.

I can't imagine playing the game to a score of a million or better.  I'd be a wreck afterwards.   

i have to take a shower after playing robotron.    to see the creator of robotron talk about how hard it is, watch the two videos at the bottom of this post.

I just noticed I did about 45k better on the blue version.  Anyone know what the differences are?

the blue one has a default difficulty of 3. the yellow defaults to 5. if you want to have a heart attack, try difficulty 10. you can find instructions for setting the difficulty by downloading the manual at the bottom of this page.

[Lilwolf]

btw, you can't compare the original to the emulated.  Robotron is MUCH better then it used to be (emulation wise) but still not the same.   (the original system was pushed past its limit on the video system.   Emulation is trying to limit it, and its closer.. but still not exact).

Anyway, if you are building a robotron cabinet.  Buy the originals. 

If your building a generic cab, but robotron is your favorite... consider others... But only if wico 8ways aren't that great for other games you love.  They aren't my favorite joysticks at all...

I play with 2 happs supers (I think they are my favorite all around joysticks).  But have used Comps, Ultimates, and dual Monroes.... I have a single wico 8 way (and some 4 ways) and I'm not that impressed...   But I also like bats also... what I'm used to.

[spacies]

And the conclusion is.....?

I have just scored an original Robotron. I am so freakin happy.

The only problem is that is has the worst sticks ever.

I NEED good replacements, NOW! lol.

[Xiaou2]

Wico 8 ways arent the best for being accurate with diagnals for instance..
but because of the nature of Robotron, it works out great...

 As in Robotron, you are doing many circular and rolling moves.  Never
going from dead center to any one direction.  Instead, going from one
direction and rolling right into the nearby direction in sequence.   Being
that the throw and activation is so short and easy,  it makes for
faster reaction times than most stick. (diag's are shorter dist. than
most to activate which in some games would have you accidentally
hitting the wrong direction on accident)

 But trying to use a wico 8way leaf stick in a fighter.. and you will get
pissed really quickly. (ducking or jumping on accident - or not being able
to jump or duck cause you hit left or right instead) 

 My problem with the supers is that they are very stiff and have
a Huge travel to activation.   For example - going all the way from
far left to opposite right.    In most games the delay wouldnt be
a problem.  However, in Robotron, a fraction of a second will
at most times cost you a life.


 Congrats to getting a real machine     I dont think anyone would regret
having one, As its a game that you never seem to get bored of.
 

 I think we need David to make a new run of Wico 8 ways.

[Kremmit]

I play with 2 happs supers (I think they are my favorite all around joysticks).  But have used Comps, Ultimates, and dual Monroes....

How did you like the Monroe sticks for Robotron?  I've been wanting to give that a go myself.  Also, did you have the ones with the round restrictor plate on the bottom, or the ones with no plate?

[kowal]

someone has good photos Monroe sticks (profile)?

[Kremmit]

Here's everything I know about Monroe joysticks:

Monroe joysticks were originally used in Gyruss, Time Pilot, Rampage, Circus Charlie (2-way variety), (maybe) Zookeeper and possibly others.  These are leafswitch sticks with a ball pivot and a spring for resistance.    There are at least two varieties:

One variety was fitted with a restrictor plate that could be switched out for 2, 4, or 8-way operation.  The 2-way plate was used in (at least) Circus Charlie.  I have never seen the 4-way plate in person, but a drawing of one in an old game manual- I think it was Rampage, which is odd since the game is 8-way.  Looked like Midway took a stock drawing from Monroe and stuffed it in there.  At any rate, the drawing showed a cloverleaf shape rather than a diamond. The more common 8-way plate is round.

The other variety of the Monroe stick has no restrictor plate, and a much less complicated 1-piece base design.  I'm not aware of any restriction schemes for that variety.  The balltop on this variety is slightly smaller than on the restrictor plate type.

I've never seen a Monroe stick with a handle other than a black balltop.

Pics (click for 640x480 views):

[Donkey_Kong]

the blue one has a default difficulty of 3. the yellow defaults to 5. if you want to have a heart attack, try difficulty 10. you can find instructions for setting the difficulty by downloading the manual at the bottom of this page.

What was the default difficulty for the Robotron machines back in the day, or did it vary from cab to cab?

Also, IRC...it is difficulty 5 for Twin Galaxies scoreboard. (I'll go check.) Yep, difficulty 5 and 5 lives to start and no extra men. Mame or Arcade. 1st place is 945,550 in tournament mode arcade. Tournament mode high score is 348,691,680. The only difference in settings is extra men every 25K, vs none for tournament.

Here is a link to All Twin Galaxies  Robotron high scores, all platforms.
http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=22&g=

Man...300+ Million! I think I have read that with that type of talent you can actually bank up extra men, go to bed, wake up in the AM and keep on playing...That would be sweet! I may have read that in this post, or somewhere at BYOAC. Too tired to check. 

[kowal]

 Kremmit big thx
I must to buy one. But I do not see this on E-bay:(

[Ahigh]

I have tornado terry's red-balltop happ cometition 8-way's on a real cabinet in perfect condition.

http://www.tornadoterrys.com/surplus.htm

i only count scores at difficulty 10, 3 men to start, 25k extra.

my high score is 1.93 million.  i can play indefinitely at difficulty 5.

- ahigh

[Kremmit]

Kremmit big thx
I must to buy one. But I do not see this on E-bay:(

They don't show up too often, probably due to the small number of games that used them.

[RobotronNut]

the blue one has a default difficulty of 3. the yellow defaults to 5. if you want to have a heart attack, try difficulty 10. you can find instructions for setting the difficulty by downloading the manual at the bottom of this page.

What was the default difficulty for the Robotron machines back in the day, or did it vary from cab to cab?

it was operator-settable. if the operator left it at default values, then it would have been the ones listed above, depending on which rom he had.

[RobotronNut]

i only count scores at difficulty 10, 3 men to start, 25k extra.

my high score is 1.93 million.  i can play indefinitely at difficulty 5.

- ahigh

aha! a robotron expert... can you give me some tips to get my high score past 3 million at difficulty 3?

[Xiaou2]

No offense  Ahigh, but I dont believe it.

 Theres no way anyone can play Robotron on med level indifinitely with
Competitions.  The square actuator would make that impossible.

 Its bad enough with supers...  but I might have given you the benefit
of the doubt with them cause of the round restriction.


 Must be a sponsor of Tornado Terry's or something...
 

 Btw - Competitions are known for 'spacer wear'.   Playing Robotron for any
length of time and those spacers must be History.   Look for lots of white
powder under the CP.   

[Ahigh]

Scouts honor truth.  I thought the same thing when I put them on (didn't know comps had square actuators when I bought them).  Looked like imperials, which I know are crap.  You could do supers too, but I highly recommend the comps, and haven't had any issues at all.

--
- Aaron

No offense  Ahigh, but I dont believe it.

 Theres no way anyone can play Robotron on med level indifinitely with
Competitions.  The square actuator would make that impossible.

 Its bad enough with supers...  but I might have given you the benefit
of the doubt with them cause of the round restriction.


 Must be a sponsor of Tornado Terry's or something...
 

 Btw - Competitions are known for 'spacer wear'.   Playing Robotron for any
length of time and those spacers must be History.   Look for lots of white
powder under the CP.   

[RandyT]

Isn't there some MAME settings that would make things easier as well?  Like playing on a slow system and turning off frameskip?

[NoOne=NBA=]

Isn't there some MAME settings that would make things easier as well?  Like playing on a slow system and turning off frameskip?

Yes and No.

Yes, on a slow system, as you mention.

No, on a good rig.
MAME is actually MORE difficult because you don't get the hardware induced slowdown at the higher levels.

[RobotronNut]

MAME is actually MORE difficult because you don't get the hardware induced slowdown at the higher levels.

some amount of slowdown is defintely being emulated. in mame, there is a noticeable slowdown at the higher levels, like i remember the original, although i haven't played (or even seen) an original in years.

perhaps the emulation isn't exact, but it feels pretty close to my (admittedly rusty) recollection of what the original felt like.

both mame (and the original, IIRC) keep you moving at normal speed, while everything else slows down. this affects your strategy. at the beginning of levels, when the slowdown is most noticeable, it's best to look for places where you can charge ahead, grabbing humans, without having to shoot your way thru. since you're faster than everything else, you can cover a lot of ground quickly. if you have to shoot your way thru, you have to wait for your shots, and for the bad guys to die, which are slowed down with everything else.

[Ahigh]

Isn't there some MAME settings that would make things easier as well?  Like playing on a slow system and turning off frameskip?

Yes and No.

Yes, on a slow system, as you mention.

No, on a good rig.
MAME is actually MORE difficult because you don't get the hardware induced slowdown at the higher levels.

In my opinion, the MAME problems are all about latency.  Even the latest version has a tear mid-way down the screen.  This demonstrates a frame of latency on the top half of the screen.

Additional latency is present on earlier versions of MAME making the problem even worse.  The latency is in the details of the emulation and synchronization with the graphics system's vertical retrace.

hardware slowdown is not something that I take advantage of on the real machine.  It does occur, but for me, it does not make things easier at level 10.  It actually impedes the timing of the movement of the joystick preventing bullets from firing due to slowdown and makes things harder.  But I haven't heard anyone else complain about this; it's definitely not a thing that I pray for, but usually it's not a big differentiator like the latency is.

I hope this is helpful.

[maxmix]

Went for some of these for now....

http://www.gremlinsolutions.co.uk/products/happjoycompred.htm

maxmix