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The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
Druin:
Now that I'm finally heading into building my own cabinet/controls, I am interested in analysis of that joystick issue. I forgot some of the finer details.
I know MAME had that sticky mode thing or something, trying to do the same as logic gates would do to block out diagonals or some such, to have an 8 way only respond on the 4 main directions, but this still would require accurate joystick motion, which isn't satisfactory....
So since I haven't had the chance to do experimenting with my own parts (I just ordered Ipac and Optipac finally, maybe when I get those I can try it myself), I would like to know if anyone else can fill in the detail on exactly why the 8 way doesn't make a good responsive 4way when you try to apply digital logic to the switches to condition it?
what I mean is....I think the reason an 8 way didn't respond like a 4 way was because unless you press dead on in the 4 way directions, you'd have some diagonal response, and any digital circuit (or MAME sticky option) would filter out the diagonal, thus registering nothing at all unless you hit it dead on in 4way directions.
Is that the situation that everyone has given up on using 8ways as 4ways?
If that's what the problem is, I may be interested in a study on my own for my own interest, to see if I can come up with a circuit to better translate 8way joystick action into a 4 way response, by analyzing the diagonal signals.
I dont' want to have a 4 way stick on a panel, that's why, and I find the thought of manually switching a restrictor plate to be tedious....if I could kick in a circuit, that'd be good for me.
So my thought would be something to the effect of...if you are going to move Right on an 8way, and you are a bit off and hit a diagonal up, I'd like to look at the signals and see if the Right switch is hit before the Up switch (on diagonal) and if so, to register a "Right" because it looks like that was the intention....and if "Up" seems to have been struck first, then register an Up....so instead of filtering out diagonals I'd like to observe them and deduce the intentions of the player. This is on the assumption of course, that when intending to press a direction, that one switch is actually hit before another in a repeatable fashion that this could work. That is what I want to study.
Maybe I'd find some other pattern like this, that would be reliable.
Any thoughts? It's not as tedious to DO as it may seem, since I'm interested in it myself and that takes away any grunt work on developing something so trivial when all one has to do is get a 4way stick or restrictor etc....
If it works out...I'll publish it for public knowledge
Cue-Ball:
No offense, but i think doing this is going to be a waste of your time. No logic can ever replace the physical feel of a 4-way stick with a diamond-shaped restrictor. People have tried all sorts of solutions to this problem and the only TRULY satisfactory one is to use a real 4-way stick. Besides, this is an awful lot of work when you could just buy one of Oscar's restrictor plates or, space permitting, spend an extra $15 on a true 4-way stick.
Druin:
That's the problem, space isn't permitting this time! I'm jammed up with 8ways and have no room for 4 ways...I may compromise somewhere but I wouldn't mind the digital approach attempt. But as I said it wouldn't be a lot of effort since I do this sort of design for a living and it's not out of my normal line of sight to work on...
In my case I have the luxury of not really being familiar with the exact feel of a classic 4 way.
I played the games but I was too young to pay attention to detail, so if I could get an 8way to respond well enough, it'd be fine with me.
But for those things I DO recall, yeah, nothing but authentic will do for those cases/people.
I just bought my Xenophobe joystick, now I'm looking for a spy hunter panel....
Frostillicus:
isn't there a real mod or utility for mame that addresses this exact problem - only with software? Can't think of it right now...it just stops the registering of the diagonals. But nothing can beat a true 4-way; moving from down directly to right is much different than moving from down to sliding through a diagonal which may or may not register, to finally hitting right.
Druin:
--- Quote from: Frostillicus on May 06, 2003, 09:01:04 pm ---isn't there a real mod or utility for mame that addresses this exact problem - only with software? Can't think of it right now...it just stops the registering of the diagonals. But nothing can beat a true 4-way; moving from down directly to right is much different than moving from down to sliding through a diagonal which may or may not register, to finally hitting right.
--- End quote ---
If it's the same software fix I am thinking of, it may just ignore the diagonals, which doesn't address the real issue. I have been observing the mechanical activity of my 8way as I move it in 4way positions, and it looks like the problem isn't with initially hitting a direction from center point, it's when you try to switch from one 4way position to another, like going from Up to Right, I find that the Up switch is never released when I try to move Right, so I go from Up, to Up-Right diagonal...
And if the software blocks diagonals, it won't see me moving from the Up position at all.
So my proposal would be to have something analyze this movement and realize I'm trying to move Right. Which I think I can easily do.
As for the feel of a 4way, do you think there is a big physical difference in the feel or does that feel have something to do more with psychological impact of frustraction with trying to get an 8way to register without such precise movements?
ie if you could use an 8way and just treat it like a 4way and casually try to change directions, and have it do so without diagonal registration fuss, would that be playable to you?