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4Ghz Core 2 Duo vs M.A.M.E. 0.120 (benchmark results)
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Tiger-Heli:
DiveMaster - Thanks!

Thanks TheManuel!

DDR2-800 is really cheap right now - I can understand you not upgrading, but it wouldn't make sense for me to buy less than that.

Before we start, I have some dumb newb questions coming from the AMD world and being somewhat out of touch:

Can you change both the multiplier and FSB on the C2D's or just the FSB or both but only up to the max.  On AMD, usually you can only mess with the FSB b/c they are multiplier locked.  For example, the E4500 is stock at 11x200 FSB, but Taz mentioned a 9x multiplier.  Your E4300 is stock at 9x200FSB, but you said you had it at 3 Ghz, was that 10x300, or 9x333FSB?  (Errmm - you said you're at 300FSB at 2.7 so that tells me you are running at 9x, but Taz said the E4500 was picked for the 9x multiplier, so I'm guessing maybe you can reduce the multiplier but not increase it?)

Also, can you run the memory bus independently of the CPU FSB or not (or does that vary from mobo to mobo)?

The games I would mainly be interested in would be
SFrush
Cruisin'USA
SWTrilogy (not much chance)
RidgeRacer

and the like.

If you don't mind, I would like to see framerates at Stock clock (1.8 Mhz), 2.4 Ghz, 2.7 Ghz, and 3.0 Ghz, for the above games.

(I thought I would save you some work and just look at the MAME benchmarks site, but CrusnUSA is running at 69% with a 2133 Mhz Core2Solo/Duo and 101% with a 2033 Mhz Core2Solo/Duo both with 0.118, so ....)

I'm just kicking around the upgrade idea now, so no rush on the results, but I'm curious to see what you come up with!!!

Thanks again! 
TheManuel:

--- Quote ---DDR2-800 is really cheap right now - I can understand you not upgrading, but it wouldn't make sense for me to buy less than that.
--- End quote ---
You are absolutely right on this.  I built my PC in April right around the middle of the price drop curve and they are dirt cheap right now so just go for the fastest you can afford although I would not pay too much extra for boutique memory with low timings.


--- Quote ---Can you change both the multiplier and FSB on the C2D's or just the FSB or both but only up to the max.  On AMD, usually you can only mess with the FSB b/c they are multiplier locked.  For example, the E4500 is stock at 11x200 FSB, but Taz mentioned a 9x multiplier.  Your E4300 is stock at 9x200FSB, but you said you had it at 3 Ghz, was that 10x300, or 9x333FSB?  (Errmm - you said you're at 300FSB at 2.7 so that tells me you are running at 9x, but Taz said the E4500 was picked for the 9x multiplier, so I'm guessing maybe you can reduce the multiplier but not increase it?)
--- End quote ---
Multiplier for Core 2 Duo's is locked if you are increasing so you will be limited by the stock multiplier.  However, you can run a lower multiplier which is what some people do because they want to increase their FSB fo improve communication with the memory (for what it's worth) but they don't want their CPU speed beyond the point where they cannot control stability with their setup.


--- Quote ---Also, can you run the memory bus independently of the CPU FSB or not (or does that vary from mobo to mobo)?
--- End quote ---
In my motherboard, I can run the memory bus faster than the CPU bus but I don't know if I can running it slower.  There is a limited selection of multipliers I can use to set this up in my motherboard.  Maybe someone can pitch in with more info?  I am not much of an overclocker.


--- Quote ---The games I would mainly be interested in would be
SFrush
Cruisin'USA
SWTrilogy (not much chance)
RidgeRacer

and the like.

If you don't mind, I would like to see framerates at Stock clock (1.8 Mhz), 2.4 Ghz, 2.7 Ghz, and 3.0 Ghz, for the above games.

(I thought I would save you some work and just look at the MAME benchmarks site, but CrusnUSA is running at 69% with a 2133 Mhz Core2Solo/Duo and 101% with a 2033 Mhz Core2Solo/Duo both with 0.118, so ....)
--- End quote ---
I will try to run this tonight when I get home or tomorrow if I can't get to it since I will have to find the games first. 
While I'm at it, if you want me to mess around with the memory speed, let me know.  I can run it at 800MHz since this is what you want to buy although I don't expect a difference.
divemaster127:
You can pick up the adata 2 gig ddr ram 800 on newegg for less than $56.00, its a no name but tons of people on newegg on given 5 stars.  I purchased 12 gig of it & this stuff works great & overclocks very good.  I have a 2 page form that I printed off the internet that is a step by step guide for the gigabyte overclocking of the boards, if you pm me a fax number I can send it over, I cannot remember where I found this guide but its great
dm
Tiger-Heli:
TheManuel - I'm not too worried about the memory speed - I've never seen it to make much difference.  Thanks again.

DM - I'll remember A-Data.  Thanks!
taz-nz:
Just to clarify a couple of things (this got way long winded, repeats some of what I've already said but still please read it)

First I got the Core Multiplier on the E4500 wrong it's 11x not 9x my mistake, long day. :-[

The stock Core Multiplier matters as you can't increase this on a Core 2 Duo only decrease it in steps of 1x down to 6x, so the higher the Core Multiplier the higher you can get the CPUs clock speed with and given FSB speed.

So if you want to hit say 3.6ghz and don't want to go any higher than a 400mhz FSB, because your using cheep DDR2-800 and don't want to overclock it , then you need at least a Core Multiplier of 9x to achieve this that CPU speed.

So why would you buy a E4500 with a multiplier of 11x when you could buy a E4300 with a multiplier of 9x would in thoery do the job? Well the answer is that the faster stock clock speed a CPU has the better binning it has, this mean the fastest model or a given series of CPUs will tend to have the highest overclocking potential. Any example of this is the E6750 with a multiplier of 8x @ 500mhz FSB it should be able to hit 4.0ghz but in reality they tend to hit a wall around the 3.8ghz mark with air cooling, as where the E6850 is know to be good up to 4.0-4.2ghz before it hits the wall on air cooling.

So running a E4500 @ 9x 400Mhz FSB is a safer bet to get to 3.6ghz (a 63% overclock) than an E4300 @ 9x 400 FSB to get to 3.6hgz (a 100% overclock).

When deciding on what FSB to run to achieve your final clock speed you need to think about what else your going to overclock then you increase the FSB, the FSB speed effect the speed of your CPU, Memory and Chipset, and these all need to be taken into account. The lowest FSB you can run is the Final CPU speed you want to hit divided by the stock Mutliplier of you CPU, for a E4500 @3.6ghz that is  3600/11 = 327mhz (1307 FSB), now 327mhz * 2.4 memory multiplier gets you DDR2-784 so now your memory is underclocked at there for you have less memory bandwidth, if you increase the memory multiplier to 2.6 you end up with your memory at DDR2-850 now it's overclocked, so the easy thing to do is find the common ground between your memory speed and the final CPU speed you want of 3600mhz with is 400mhz 2x for the memory multiplier to give DDR2-800, and 9x for the core multiplier to give 3.6ghz.

The one other thing you have to watch out for when selecting you FSB is whether your motherboard and chipset can handle the new FSB speed, now the P35 Chipset is good for well over 500Mhz FSB speed, but this is only on the right motherboard with good chipset cooling, some motherboard become unstable when you increase the FSB speed due to their design, others because the North bridge heatsink can not keep the chipset cool at the higher FSB speed. Also the higher you increas the FSB the more likely it is that you will need to overvolt the FSB and Chipset some to make it stable and the higher speed, that extra voltage equal more chipset heat.

Higher FSB speed give the CPU more bandwidth to talk to the memory and the rest of your system with, but there is limit to what is practical, an extreme setup would be run say a CPU at 6x 600mhz FSB to get to 3.6ghz, this would require a very stable motherboard with very good chipset cooling, and a lot of extra voltage to the chipset & FSB to work, it would give you massive FSB bandwidth but would be very hard to get stable.

Memory Speed & bandwidth why should you care?
Memory bandwidth is the speed at which the system can get information from your RAM, basically more is better as long as you CPU can put it to use, little point in having a 800 FSB CPU with dual cannel DDR3-1600 the CPUs FSB bandwidth is just now wide enough to make use of the huge memory bandwidth with would give you.

Memory bandwidth & FSB are important because of the way CPUs work, without getting into a whole heap of tech-talk, The great the Memory & FSB bandwidth a system has the more able the system is to supply the CPU with information to process, that catch is if you don't have enough memory or FSB bandwidth then the system has trouble keeping up with the speed of the CPU (this is made worse if the CPU is noticeably overclocked). This is why CPU have Cache Memory it acts as a buffer between the CPU and the system memory, hiding any gaps in the flow information from the CPU.

Now what happens if the memory bandwidth can't keep up with the CPUs needs, and the memory access is to random for the cache memory to buffer fully, then the CPU becomes starved or information and can't process anything for a split second, now it's worse than that because of the way a CPU works, what might be a one cycle break in the flow of the data can result in a 20-40 cycle break in the processing of data, so the penalty for not having enough memory or FSB bandwidth can be much great than you would think.

A modern Celeron is nothing but a Pentium 4 Core with 1/2-1/4 of the cache memory and a lower FSB, these two things make the same CPU Core perform much slower than it would in a Pentium 4 at the same CPU Clock speed because it spends so much more time wait for data to process.

This where memory & FSB speed & dual channel kick in.

Theoretical DDR2 Memory bandwidth:

DDR2-800 Single channel   ~6.4GB/s   (400mhz)
DDR2-1000 Single channel   ~8.0GB/s   (500mhz)
DDR2-800 Dual channel   ~12.8GB/s (400mhz)
DDR2-1000 Dual channel   ~16.0GB/s (500mhz)

800 FSB         ~6.4GB/s (200mhz)
1600 FSB         ~12.8GB/s (400mhz)
2000 FSB         ~16.0GB/s (500mhz)

As you can see the drop from DDR2-1000 to DDR2-800 is only 23% but the Drop from Dual channel to single channel is 100%, this is why it's important to run dual channel, you loose way to much memory bandwidth if you don't run dual channel.

How does this effect MAME if you drop from dual channel to single channel, well very little at 500mhz (2000 FSB) DDR2-1000 with a E6850 with 4mb of cache like I'm running, about 2-3% across the board in fact as you can see in the benchmarks below.

The catch is that while MAME is basically CPU limited and doesn't appear to require huge memory bandwidth, these result are on my system and thus not the norm, the effect of dropping to only 6.4Gb/s memory bandwidth with a single DDR2-800 Dimm on say a E4*00 series with only 2mb CPU Cache will probably be much more noticeable that the effect of dropping to 8.0GB/s with 4mb of CPU cache on my system.

Benchmark performed same as normal just with my memory in single not dual channel. (still 2gb of RAM in system)

ROM NAME   MAME Ver   dual Channel   Single Channel

- 1942      0.121u1      6572.08%   6555.78%

- a51site4   0.121u1      235.35%      234.89%

- airco22b   0.121u1      143.19%      141.29%

- alpinerd   0.121u1      88.50%      87.20%

- biofreak   0.121u1      145.12%      143.02%

- blitz2k   0.121u1      160.68%      160.12%

- blitz99   0.121u1      153.09%      151.04%

- blitz      0.121u1      167.30%      166.52%

- calspeed   0.121u1      204.23%      203.53%

- carnevil   0.121u1      285.30%      283.93%

- crusnusa   0.121u1      276.53%      275.63%

- crusnwld   0.121u1      249.91%      249.36%

- cybrcomm   0.121u1      135.27%      134.07%

- Daytona   0.121u1      212.79%      209.73%

- gauntdl   0.121u1      134.20%      133.14%

- gauntleg   0.121u1      159.81%      151.36%

- gradius4   0.121u1      96.85%      96.45%

- hyprdriv   0.121u1      175.17%      167.02%

- mace      0.121u1      251.07%      248.84%

- offroadc   0.121u1      438.94%      436.40%

- propcycl   0.121u1      137.27%      135.14%

- radikalb   0.121u1      177.72%      176.58%
   
- raveracw   0.121u1      121.21%      119.77%

- ridgerac   0.121u1      151.72%      148.99%

- scud      0.121u1      28.61%      27.87%

- sfrush   0.121u1      211.70%      199.13%

- sidebs2   0.121u1      215.90%      213.46%

- speedup   0.121u1      179.16%      179.30%

- starblad   0.121u1      145.58%      144.87%

- surfplnt   0.121u1      163.14%      161.74%

- tenthdeg   0.121u1      85.30%      83.64%

- timecris   0.121u1      145.30%      148.09%

- wargods   0.121u1      411.74%      411.54%

- wg3dh      0.121u1      375.54%      374.59%

- xevi3dg   0.121u1      371.37%      372.76%


--- Quote from: divemaster127 on November 28, 2007, 10:14:20 am ---I am running the Rosewill Z-3 coolers I have 3 of these & they work great, the artic cooler you are looking at is fine.  But with the tags on it, it makes it a pain to install these coolers are not good for being used over & over.  That is why I like the rosewill or similar they use a back plate w/screws & nuts.  I am kicking around dumping my 6750 & going to the 6850 just for the extra performance.  I also prefer Gigabyte motherboards I have 3 of the GA-P35-DS3L, these boards are tough & great overclockers.
dm

--- End quote ---

I had a look at the cooler your using and while it's the right design type for overclocking it's only a mini tower-cooler, with only a 92mm fan and what looks like three heat pipes, I'd look at tyring something bigger like the Coolermaster Hyper 212 or the thermalright 120 utlra before you change to a E6850, I would be suprised if you couldn't get to at least 3.6-3.8ghz out of your e6750 with a larger heatsink and a bit of tweaking, presuming your ram is not what is holding you back.

 


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