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Blind people sue Target because they can't access Target's website.

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Ed_McCarron:

--- Quote from: SavannahLion on October 03, 2007, 06:58:52 pm ---This conversation is really disappointing. It's enlightening to see some of the commentary here in regards to the handicapped. For instance:


--- Quote from: Ed_McCarron on October 03, 2007, 03:47:49 pm ---Man, if thats the case, and I'm target, I'd put instructions on the site (where their software can find it to read) that state if you are blind, get a sighted person to help you.

There.  I've accommodated the blind.  I've offered a perfectly reasonable way for them to navigate my site.
--- End quote ---

That is downright insulting. What this essentially shows is a lack of understanding of what it's like to not only be blind, but to be one of the millions of "helpers" who assist the handicap every day of their lives.

Try this on a weekend, say Friday night, put on a blindfold and don't take them off until Monday. With this blindfold on, try and convince one of your friends to stick with you the entire time, "helping," you go about your daily life. If you don't see a problem with that, then try it again for a week.

--- End quote ---

I'm closer to blind than you give me credit for.

I lost 99% of the vision in one eye due to a blood clot.

Then, I had to have surgery on the other eye.  I was blind for a week.  I spent it sitting on the couch - the 20/800 vision in the other eye was just enough for me to avoid walking into walls.  I didn't even contemplate going near a computer.

Handicaps require work to overcome.  Not lawsuits.

Your example requires 9 days.  I doub't that a blind person will be on target's site for 9 days.  I'm sure, even though its a pain, for the 20 minutes they need to navigate this one website, they can request help.

Ed_McCarron:
Oh, something else.

How many blind folks who are proud of their independence do you think will 'see' that lawsuit as an insult?

I've worked at the local blind/sight center.  The folks there are uber proud of the fact they get around so well.  Offering to assist one will occasionally get you a response full of attitude.

shmokes:
I'm not even saying that Target deserves to lose.  From what Patrick is saying, it sounds like maybe their website is fine.  You don't argue the merits of a case until trial.  When Target files a motion to dismiss they're just saying, "Okay . . . lets assume for the moment that everything the plaintiff says is true, and our website is not ADA compliant.  Even then, they have no case because ADA doesn't require compliance from websites."  This is obviously the best solution for Target, because it means they don't have to go to trial and spend thousands of dollars fighting a class action.

But it doesn't mean that at trial they will maintain those assumptions.  They will make the same arguments, but if the site really is navigable, as Patrick says, they'll also argue that they do, in fact, comply with ADA standards.  If the claims of noncompliance are totally without merit, Target will counterclaim for court costs, presumably.  The blind group can't just randomly select Target as a test case because they want a final answer at leas in the 9th circuit, if not from the Supreme Court, as to whether ADA applies to websites.  They may want a test case, but it damned well be someone who really is running a website that isn't ADA compliant, or things are going to get really expensive for them.

SavannahLion:

--- Quote from: Ed_McCarron on October 03, 2007, 07:12:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: SavannahLion on October 03, 2007, 06:58:52 pm ---This conversation is really disappointing. It's enlightening to see some of the commentary here in regards to the handicapped. For instance:


--- Quote from: Ed_McCarron on October 03, 2007, 03:47:49 pm ---Man, if thats the case, and I'm target, I'd put instructions on the site (where their software can find it to read) that state if you are blind, get a sighted person to help you.

There.  I've accommodated the blind.  I've offered a perfectly reasonable way for them to navigate my site.
--- End quote ---

That is downright insulting. What this essentially shows is a lack of understanding of what it's like to not only be blind, but to be one of the millions of "helpers" who assist the handicap every day of their lives.

Try this on a weekend, say Friday night, put on a blindfold and don't take them off until Monday. With this blindfold on, try and convince one of your friends to stick with you the entire time, "helping," you go about your daily life. If you don't see a problem with that, then try it again for a week.

--- End quote ---

I'm closer to blind than you give me credit for.

I lost 99% of the vision in one eye due to a blood clot.

Then, I had to have surgery on the other eye.  I was blind for a week.  I spent it sitting on the couch - the 20/800 vision in the other eye was just enough for me to avoid walking into walls.  I didn't even contemplate going near a computer.

--- End quote ---

Fair enough.

My point is, given enough time, a person is going to want to do things besides sit on a couch. This includes things like going out to your favorite restaurant, traveling and of course, using a computer. Do you really want to do any of these things for the rest of your life with assistance (ie a person)? Even worse, do you want to condemn this person for the rest of your life helping you?

You fell ill. Illness is forgiven and often not expected to last for sixty years... well hopefully not. I digress, if you were blind for the next fifty years, do you really want to sit on the couch and do nothing that entire time?


--- Quote ---Handicaps require work to overcome.  Not lawsuits.

--- End quote ---

True enough. But there's a line between working to overcome a handicap and discovering that you're being locked out because of a handicap. If a store refuses to construct a ramp into a store, that would be akin to posting a sign saying, "no ---auto-censored--- allowed." The end result is the same.


--- Quote ---Your example requires 9 days.  I doub't that a blind person will be on target's site for 9 days.  I'm sure, even though its a pain, for the 20 minutes they need to navigate this one website, they can request help.

--- End quote ---

It goes right back to my previous point. Let's say Target isn't the only site. Let's say every site is like that. Twenty minutes would quickly balloon into an hour, then three hours, then every week, every day, for years. Imagine being the child who has to help his father read off websites every weekend? Reverse that.

I lived that exact role for nearly twenty years. It's not a role I have any desire to return to.

Ed_McCarron:

--- Quote from: SavannahLion on October 03, 2007, 07:35:47 pm ---It goes right back to my previous point. Let's say Target isn't the only site. Let's say every site is like that. Twenty minutes would quickly balloon into an hour, then three hours, then every week, every day, for years. Imagine being the child who has to help his father read off websites every weekend? Reverse that.

I lived that exact role for nearly twenty years. It's not a role I have any desire to return to.

--- End quote ---

Valid points.

When I first lost the vision in that one eye, I spent (and still spend) time with my good eye closed - to see if I could survive if the other eye went.

I know theres no way I'd be able to use a computer visually - the fonts simply don't get big enough.

I think I'd avoid using the computer.  It might kill me...  But I can't imagine being read to.

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