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diesel cars. NO!
patrickl:
--- Quote from: Kremmit on September 24, 2007, 12:26:51 pm ---Danny, I know you know a thing or two about cars -probably more than me- but you need to update your knowledge re: diesel engines. Some of the modern ones out of Europe are NOT the noisy, stinky, polluting, in-efficient ---daisies--- you're familiar with.
--- End quote ---
Even the new diesel engines still pollute a lot more than modern petrol engines. The extra pollution that comes from diesel cars (NOx and fine particles) causes lots of diseases and even deaths.
Kremmit:
--- Quote from: patrickl on September 24, 2007, 04:13:26 pm ---
--- Quote from: Kremmit on September 24, 2007, 12:26:51 pm ---Danny, I know you know a thing or two about cars -probably more than me- but you need to update your knowledge re: diesel engines. Some of the modern ones out of Europe are NOT the noisy, stinky, polluting, in-efficient ---daisies--- you're familiar with.
--- End quote ---
Even the new diesel engines still pollute a lot more than modern petrol engines. The extra pollution that comes from diesel cars (NOx and fine particles) causes lots of diseases and even deaths.
--- End quote ---
Well, I'll admit I've done no research on the actual emissions levels compared to a new unleaded motor. I just know it's a far cry from the kind of smoke belching monster most people think of when they think diesel.
patrickl:
True, 80% cleaner (on the fine particle emissions) is a lot cleaner than before.
Level42:
--- Quote from: Kremmit on September 24, 2007, 04:38:38 pm ---
--- Quote from: patrickl on September 24, 2007, 04:13:26 pm ---
--- Quote from: Kremmit on September 24, 2007, 12:26:51 pm ---Danny, I know you know a thing or two about cars -probably more than me- but you need to update your knowledge re: diesel engines. Some of the modern ones out of Europe are NOT the noisy, stinky, polluting, in-efficient ---daisies--- you're familiar with.
--- End quote ---
Even the new diesel engines still pollute a lot more than modern petrol engines. The extra pollution that comes from diesel cars (NOx and fine particles) causes lots of diseases and even deaths.
--- End quote ---
Well, I'll admit I've done no research on the actual emissions levels compared to a new unleaded motor. I just know it's a far cry from the kind of smoke belching monster most people think of when they think diesel.
--- End quote ---
Indeed....
Have to admit I was wrong about the CO2, but it is about 15% lower than with a regular gas engine.
I know a Diesel car of 10 years ago pollutes the same as 12 modern Diesel cars.
The funny thing is that the government is to blame (at least here in Holland) for the Diesel becoming so popular. Insane high gas prices force people and companies to take an economic choice. Since I'm driving about 70.000 km per year, my boss wants me to drive a Diesel engine. Despite the higher tax on the Diesel car, it's a lot cheaper when you do as many kilometers as I do per year. This is caused because of the lower price per liter but even more so because of the low fuel consumption by the Diesel engine.
Admittedly, the insanely powerful TDI's of today have also increased the popularity of the Diesel a lot....
About the electrical car: It will be a long way. Imagine that 10% of the current cars would be electric only. That would require some hefty investments in new power plants and infrastructure...
Of course these power plants also polute. The advantage over fuel engines in cars is first that the electrical engine is WAY more economic. 70% of the energy put in a fuel engine goes up in heat (and smoke ;) ) Only 30% gets into your wheels. An electric motor should do 80%.
And on the plant site, it is easier to prevent pollution on the side of the plant. Also, when using wind, water and other environment friendly means to create electricity you would be driving completely free of polution.....I don't think we will live to see it, but maybe our children....
There is also one major thing not mentioned here: The power of the petrol companies. They don't want to shift things too quickly. They all know that supplies are running out, and they do invest in alternative power sources, but they want to keep in control, believe me.
patrickl:
--- Quote from: Level42 on September 24, 2007, 04:59:57 pm ---I know a Diesel car of 10 years ago pollutes the same as 12 modern Diesel cars.
--- End quote ---
I seriously doubt it. You might have read that on some pro diesel site, but there is more and more research showing that diesel engines are not actually getting cleaner at all. It only looks cleaner (by eye and by casual testing). When you look at the whole picture, diesel is still quite dirty.
Visually, they eliminated the big black clouds of smoke, but the truth is that that smoke is a lot less harmfull than the fine invisible particles that modern diesels (running on modern synthetic diesel oil) emit. Apart from the NOx which you cannot see at all of course.
Then there is the problem that they only measure the weight of the emitted particles. The newer diesels blow out more particles albeit finer ones. Overall the eight is down, but there are still more particles. Also, the finer the particles the more harmful (because they can penetrate the lungs deeper) and difficult to filter they are. In the end the overall weight of these particles might have gone down, but since there are more particles and each particle does more damage, there is only an adverse effect.
Governments are messing this up bigtime and car and fuel manufacturers are hindered by this and are forced to develop things that in reality don't work.
The open filters that are fitted on existing cars don't appear work at all. They only seem to make matters worse. If you actually look at the particle numbers and size distribution rather than overall weight alone.
With closed filters the problem is that with the newer synthetic diesel fuels they need to redesign the filters. The different burn characteristics alter the temperature at which the filter needs to be cleaned (the filtered soot needs to be burned out)
So even the new fuels are causing problems. Of course the new low sulfur fuels are miles better than the old fuel, but car manufacturers need to adapt and old cars are now not ideally suited for these new fuels.
Anyway. It's getting better, but diesel is still a very unhealthy alternative and governments and companies are not working together at full efficiency. So what else is new I guess ::)
--- Quote ---The funny thing is that the government is to blame (at least here in Holland) for the Diesel becoming so popular. Insane high gas prices force people and companies to take an economic choice.
--- End quote ---
Actually the price of diesel is subsidized (or rather taxed lower) to keep transport companies competitive. The road tax is increased with the idea that only people who drive really a lot (ie trucks) will use it. It all went horribly wrong though.
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