LCD Marquee Project: AKA "How to put even more money into an old Defender cab"

[RandyT]

Before I start, I want to stress that if you try to duplicate this effort, you will be working around parts that use lethal voltages.  Never attempt to work inside electrical appliances with the power connected, and always make sure that you work in a safe way with patience and care.  Aside from you being electrocuted, poor workmanship can cause fires and other manner of personal and property damage.  You are proceeding at your own risk, so minimize it whenever possible.

Here we go:

The LCD panel was purchased a while back and I kept tripping over it.  Finally time to do something about it.  This post may have a bit of a tutorial look to it, but what good is following a project if you can't learn something from it, so who cares .

Here's what it looked like before the screwdriver attack, except mine was black:



I picked it up during one of the K-Mart clearance sales for $220 including tax.  It's a 23" HD-Ready LCD panel.  VGA, Component, S-video,  Composite inputs.  Native res: 1366x768.

The 15-pin VGA connector was the important one for me.  The size seems to be a good tradeoff in price, width and height of the top "mini-display"

Here's where I started:



Taking a panel apart is not difficult, but you have to always keep in mind that they are delicate!  Make sure that you don't put the face onto anything that might put pressure on the glass.  They break and then you can junk them

Usually the first thing you have to do is remove the base.  Not hard in this case, 4-screws and it was off.  Then just start looking for the rest of the screws, usually indicated by a little arrow.  Remove all of these.  The case is usually still snapped together by built-in plastic lips.  Stick a thumbnail a little way into the crack and slide.  It should pop.  If not, you may have missed a screw.  Look for it and then try again.

All of this was already done before taking the above photo.

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[RandyT]

Ok, here's what it looks like inside.  TV's tend to have big metal boxes inside for some reason.  The box houses the circuit boards.  PC LCD monitors tend to be more compact, which can be a little nicer in the end.  Not a big deal, we'll work with it.

The next step is to start looking for anything and everything that is binding the guts to the plastic case.  The first one will be the speakers:



There is one if these wires on each side of the unit.  Disconnect them both.  You can remove the whole speaker if you want to use it, but these sounded so tinny and cheap, they are best left in the case.  Don't forget to pull the tape off to free the wire.

In this picture you can also see the clamps that hold the LCD panel to the plastic face.

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[RandyT]

The next step is to find the control panel.  These almost always look like the following:



Just a skinny PCB held with a few screws (already removed).  This one had a couple of ground lines between the screws and the board.  Remember where these attach so you can put them back later.

Here's a picture of the face after freeing it from the plastic and flipping it over:



Pretty much just tactile switches and an IR receiver circuit for the remote.  You'll need to mount this somewhere accessible later.  You can disconnect it and set it aside.  I just let it hang.

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[RandyT]

Ok, that should be it for wired components going to the plastic bits.  Now for the mechanical fasteners.



Here's a nice blurry shot of the clamp I mentioned earlier.  It's just about impossible to get a screwdriver in the case sideways to pull them from the monitor at this step, so we need to  pull the screws attaching them to the plastic.  In this case, two for each clamp and there are 4 clamps.  Also look for any screws holding the metal box part to the plastic and remove them as well.

Once you know everything has been disconnected, carefully lift everything out of the plastic face and set the plastic aside.  Note:  keep your screws and the rest of the plastic parts in a safe place in case you decide you want to use it as a TV again someday.  Everything about this is reversible (so far.)



Here's a shot with the unit flipped over and the plastic removed.  It didn't get much smaller, depthwise, but that's not that big of a deal.

At this point, you have to make a decision.  Do you have a large enough marquee area to accommodate the depth of the stripped unit, plus any speakers, etc ?  If so, you might want to go right to the cutting and don't do anything else to the LCD.  I didn't have the extra space, so I went further. 

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[RandyT]

The only thing connecting the big metal box to the panel was a length of cloth tape.  Different panels may have different parts holding things together,  You'll need to analyze things and proceed slowly and carefully to make sure nothing gets damaged. Some of the wires and connectors are fragile, so don't pull anything you don't understand.

Now lets take a look inside;



Like I thought.  A lot of empty space.  But the benefit for this tends to be cooler temperatures on the electronics, so it's probably why it was done.

Ok, parts identification time:  The big board with the transformers on the left is the power supply.  The one on the right is the tuner and NTSC input board, and the one at the top is the LCD panel controller board.  If one were so inclined, these could all be removed and arranged in a more compact way, but that's just extra work so it's not going to happen here (although I did consider it.)

Some panels have a separate high-voltage board (for the backlights) between the power and LCD panel.  Be careful around this stuff and always make sure power is unplugged when working on it.  This unit has the HV board attached to the panel (picture in a bit), and that's where I'm leaving it.

The next task is going to be to remove the metal box from the LCD panel.  This means removing the connectors from the LCD panel.  Usually there are two connectors.  One is the panel control and the other is the power supply for the lights.  Here's the panel control connector:



Note how delicate and small this thing is.  There are locking tabs on the sides.  Break these and you are screwed, so make sure you understand how the releases work before pulling any wires.  This one just requires pressure on the tabs, but even so, it wasn't easy to remove.  Be patient above all.

Also, make sure you note the orientation of the connector when you remove it.  They are keyed, but knowing how they go back makes re-assembly easier.

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[superbigjay]

That will be interresting,

there were a few posts lately for "active".

First NickG with the Wa-hoo! thread in project annoucement with his "projected marquee"
Then LeapineLew with the "it's this even possible" thread in main with his split LDC used for both marquee and screen.
And finally, you with the dedicated marquee LCD  

Can't wait to see the end result...

Are you planing to use only part of the LCD to have the right marquee ratio?

PS: so far this is probably the cheapest option for that kinf of marquee...

Jay  

[RandyT]

And finally, you with the dedicated marquee LCD   

Are you planing to use only part of the LCD to have the right marquee ratio?

This has been burning in my skull for many moons now.  With me, it started quite a while ago (about August of last year) when Youki (AtomicFE) asked me about possibilities for cheap, small LCD panels and  controllers for instruction cards.  My idea at that point was to use a full-size 16x9 LCD panel in the marquee area, with the rest  of the panel appearing as a small LCD "topper" where the instructions could be displayed.  The cost of panels at that time made the idea prohibitive, but they are starting to get cheaper.  As I was able to put my hands on one without breaking the bank, I started on the project.

The aspect ratio will never be perfect, because of the many different marquee sizes.  But a little stretch in a marquee graphic never hurt anyone

BTW, this is already 85% done.  Just doing the write-up.  And yes, I'm going to make everyone wait until the write up is done before showing the result 

RandyT

[DarkBubble]

BTW, this is already 85% done.  Just doing the write-up.  And yes, I'm going to make everyone wait until the write up is done before showing the result 

RandyT

Bastard.   I knew it was only a matter of time before I saw you tackle this one.  Can't wait to see the results!

[mcfreak]

Come on, let's see it in a cabinet! 

[RandyT]

Sorry I haven't added to this.  Busy past couple of days.

I really want to add another 5% or so before showing the end result.  But, I'll tell you what I'm battling;

The way the Defender marquee area was built, it doesn't allow the thick LCD panel to go as low as I would have liked it to.  So I'm lacking a little symmetry due to wanting to keep the larger marquee (vertically).  A cabinet built specifically for this purpose will have a better end result.  Interestingly enough, the amount of space on the display that is sacrificed will have a bigger effect on whether this can be "pulled off"  than the space that is used

RandyT

[Knievel]

Cool idea Randy, but I think a cabinet style where the marquee is flush with the monitor would be best for this idea. The Atari System1 cabinet comes to mind.

Then you could hide part of the LCD from sight by dropping it down into the monitor area.

I could be wrong but I think having the LCD stick out above the cabinet is going to look silly, even with instructions or whatever on it.

[DarkBubble]

I agree that a cab built just for this type of setup would be a good idea.  It would probably come out as less awkward and wouldn't be so unusual to me, as I was used to cabs like Punch-Out!!, Playchoice 10, and the real money draws with an extra monitor up top since there were lines thirty bodies deep.  You've gotta start somewhere, though, and I can only imagine how Randy's projects look along the road to becoming a product.  I don't care if it turns out being a tad bit odd, I'm just interested in seeing how this turns out and where he goes with it after all's said and done.

It's just a shame that they don't have marquee sized LCDs.  It'd be great to run a 3-monitor setup, using one LCD as the marquee and the other as the instruction card that runs along the bottom of a lot of games, especially the fighters.

[shardian]

There is already a cabinet that would pretty much fit this lcd:

[RandyT]

Here's the other connector.  This one is beefier and supplies power to the HV section.  No fancy locking mechanisms here, just a chunky connector that was pretty simple to remove.




This is just a gratuitous shot of the two separate parts to make me feel like I actually accomplished something.  Again, be careful with the panel.  Fragile, etc, etc...

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[patrickl]

Why are you doing a writeup of how to take an LCD TV apart? Isn' t that something that will vary per brand, type, version of the used TV?

[RandyT]

Why are you doing a writeup of how to take an LCD TV apart? Isn' t that something that will vary per brand, type, version of the used TV?

I've taken apart dozens of LCD panels of different brands.  They are virtually identical as far as the types of components inside and the precautions needed to be taken.  IOW, if you've never done this before, you can learn quite a bit about how to take apart *your* LCD panel by following along.

________


Back to the pictures



so here we are with a couple of cables to re-route to the panel.  As I am separating the control board from the actual panel due to space considerations, I need to route the cables to the outside of the can.  If the cables are tied down to the metal box anywhere, you'll probably want to free them to get as much length as possible.   Note the metal shielding on the cable.  This is a problem which we will deal with later.



And this looks like a handy exit.  If you look at the previous picture, it's easy to see why this opening was used.  There just wasn't enough cable to do it any other way.  The other wire needs to come out here as well, but we need to deal with the shielding before we go any further.

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[RandyT]

Here's where we fix the shielding problem.  As we are re-routing the wires and need every inch we can get, that means that the wires will inevitably be laying across the circuit boards or at least end up with the possibility of that happening.  If we didn't cover the metal shielding, a short-circuit could occur and would probably ruin the board.  No hi-tech stuff here, just good old electricians tape wrapped around the exposed metal shielding.



And this is what it looks like after the fact.  The power and control harnesses exit through the front and the remote control panel to the left.  It doesn't hurt to tape down the wires for some strain relief as well.

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[RandyT]

Now it's time to turn our attentions to the panel.  This photo shows the HV board.  Sometimes this is a separate board and situated with the other boards in the metal box.  On this model, it is attached to the panel.  This makes the panel a little fat on one side, but it's nice and safe bundled the way it is, so it's going to stay that way.

At the bottom left of the photo, you can see one of the panel retaining brackets.  Depending on your installation, you may want to leave these on, and use them to aid in mounting the screen.  I'm ditching them.



And here it is removed.  Every panel will be a little different as far as mounting hardware goes, but most will have some sort of fastener threaded into the metal frame, just like this one was.

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[RandyT]

Important to note:  If you have birds, don' t let them out of their cage....ever.

Ignoring what happens to the top of a cab after abuse from household pets, being stored for years in a damp basement, and repeated cleaning we need to lay out the profile of the monitor.  If I were building a cabinet specifically to suit, I probably would have inset the monitor a bit and left a strip of wood across the front.  But I didn't have that luxury in this case, so it's going to be nearly flush.  Note the extra depth to accommodate the end with the HV compartment.



I threw some paper towels inside the marquee area to try keep some of the sawdust contained.  Didn't work great, but probably better than nothing.  Then I went at it with a jigsaw.  Not a perfectly straight cut.  Oh well,.it got the job done and nobody will ever see it....(I mean once it's done )

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[RandyT]

Now, much like showing how a trick is done before the illusion is performed, here's the test fit.  It looks a bit silly, but you have to use a little imagination.  Ok, you have to use a LOT of imagination.  It gets better, trust me

A couple of things to note.  This pictures shows the brackets still attached.  These were eventually removed, but would have worked well to securely mount the panel.  Also, the panel is sitting lower than where it eventually ended up.  This is where I would have liked it to be, but the thickness of the monitor required that it be back a little bit from the front in order to allow the marquee plastic to be inserted.  This caused it to ride upward on the angled molding.  Again, if this were scratch-built, the panel could be closer to the bottom.



And this shows the fit from the back, sawdust and all.  Not too bad, but I need to do something about the top of this thing 

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[RandyT]

And this is where the box is going.  Yeah, it's going to be a bit fugly from behind, but I can live with that.  The appearance is something that can be addressed down the road with a nice looking box to enclose everything, with vents or a small fan for cooling.  What I'm concerned with right here is whether my estimations of position and wire length were correct.  Luckily for me, they were and everything will connect back up as expected.  This also shows the eventual placement for the LCD control panel and IR receiver.



Ok, I'm sure as heck not going to start mounting things to the top the way it looked.  It was cleaned, any blistering wood-like-product scraped smooth and a nice piece of textured 10-mil PSA backed black vinyl installed.  Much better looking than before and it will give me a nice, clean mounting surface..

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[RandyT]

This is a piece of 1/16" clear acrylic I was using as a window for the previous marquee.  Rather than mess around taking measurements and hoping everything lines up, I just put the LCD panel in its final place, slid in the acrylic and made a few marks with a permanent marker to show where the edges of the screen would be.  Add an extra 1/16" to each line for a little extra insurance, mask off the screen area and paint with some black spray paint.

This part does a couple of things.  Primarily, it masks off the left over area surrounding the LCD panel.  But just as importantly, it gives the marquee a more authentic look.  LCD panels usually have an "anti-glare" surface that would blow the illusion pretty readily, and this goes a long way to hide that.



And here's the part installed, sans LCD panel.  The wider band at the bottom is annoying, but that will be addressed later with a little creative obfuscation   After a little clean up, this thing can start going together.  I still need a way to retain the front plastic and the LCD panel, so that will be next....

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[RandyT]

This is the original marquee retainer that has been modified to go around the LCD panel.  It was done rather precariously on a router table and I still have all of my fingers.  Bonus for me!  Obviously, much of the structural integrity of the part was forfeited.  The white strip is double sided tape, which will adhere it to the plastic window.  When screwed in place, it will act much like a strap and hold the LCD in its "slot".



And just for a little extra security, a pilot hole was drilled and a small screw on each side also holds the window in place.  This isn't going to be moved anywhere fully assembled, so I'm not concerned about solid mounting.  I just don't want the panel to end up on the floor, and these two things will prevent that nicely.

BTW, the flash made the black marker on the screw head look worse than it really does.  The retainer molding will cover the screw anyway.

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[spacies]

Was that really an original Defender?

[csa3d]

Interesting.  For a few days.. I was expecting that maybe Randy figured out how to slice half of the LCD to "remove" the height, and just not use the entire screen resolution for image display (since that half was cut off anyways).  I'm kinda with Spacies.. I'm not sure I would go this route, but you can bet I'm excited non the less, to see the final result.

-csa

[RandyT]

Was that really an original Defender?

The last time it was a "Defender" was close to 20  years ago, which was before I traded a 10 meg (yes, I meant meg) harddrive for it.  Just an empty wooden cab, no boards and a rough monitor.  It started its second life as a housing and control means for an Amiga computer and a 20" TV / "monitor" before the IBM PC even had decent color graphics.

Why do you ask?

RandyT

[RandyT]

Ok, the panel is in place, and everything lines up as it should.  The molding and plastic window are keeping the panel nice and secure.




And here the box is mounted by 4 screws using holes already present in the metal case.  The LCD control panel was screwed down to the top of the cab with some nylon spacers underneath.  Remember when I said to remember where the ground wires were on the panel?  This is where they need to be put back under the screws.  Also, make sure it's mounted where it won't interfere with cables, or the casing you might wish to install later.  If the panel has a remote, you can also just bury the circuit board somewhere with only the "eye" exposed.  I wanted access to both (I just aim the remote at the ceiling and it works great) so this is where I put it.

From an aesthetics standpoint, some black spray paint would be beneficial here (for the metal box, NOT the back of the LCD panel..too many holes and you don't want paint inside!)  As I plan to eventually case this in, it would have been a waste of time.

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[blueznl]

There's no 'next post'! 

[RandyT]

And here's the front.   Not terrible, but it needs a "certain something", namely some of that aforementioned "illusion."  Remember that the goal here is to make it NOT look like an oversized monitor stuffed into a marquee area.

So how does one do that?  By separating the space into the individual elements you are trying to "emulate", of course.  First and foremost is the marquee.  This is a no-brainer.  Fill up as much of the space as possible in the marquee area.  But what about the rest?  Well, that's going to be up to you.   You could easily print a nice real paper card that says "How to Play" and place it over one section of the remaining space and then use what is left for a standardized electronic instruction card.  I opted to use as much of the remaining space as possible...think Beta-Brite style "topper" display on steroids!!

<The conclusion follows...on the next post  >

[shardian]

Or, you could incorporate the entire lcd and create a custom jpeg for each game. mainly, the marquee on the top, a controls diagram below, and maybe a game flyer too to fill up some space. Being the awesome custom controller designer that you are, this really is a bad design with the way the lcd juts up out of the top. Maybe you could have laid down the lcd on the speaker/ light area and used a mirror to reflect the marquee? Either way, this project is screaming out for better planning before tearing up the expensive tv, and molesting the cabinet.

[RandyT]

Or, you could incorporate the entire lcd and create a custom jpeg for each game. mainly, the marquee on the top, a controls diagram below, and maybe a game flyer too to fill up some space. Being the awesome custom controller designer that you are, this really is a bad design with the way the lcd juts up out of the top. Maybe you could have laid down the lcd on the speaker/ light area and used a mirror to reflect the marquee? Either way, this project is screaming out for better planning before tearing up the expensive tv, and molesting the cabinet.

You haven't really been following the thread this long just to crap on the idea before you even see the end result, have you?      




This is the final result and mirrors quite closely that which was in my "mind's eye" when starting this adventure.  I didn't show you all of the steps but they are simple enough to describe.  First, however,  I want to let you in on a minor goof I made.  In the previous photo, you'll see that the frame of the panel is black.  I spray painted it to prevent the metal from being visible at the edges of the marquee area.  While this is fine, and had I opted to take a different route to dress up the upper display, it would have been no problem.  But I had an epiphany to use the nice stainless steel frame of the display as part of the finish, so some painstaking use of solvents was required to remove the paint.  It cleaned up very nicely, and with the help of a strip of brushed metal Contact vinyl across the screen (almost a perfect match, BTW), I have a very simple and classy finish for the front of the "upper display." 

The red outline of the marquee area does two things.  It accentuates the difference between the marquee and the topper.  It also provided an opportunity to mask the asymmetric space around the marquee.  This was done by simply stripping the spine from two lengths of red t-molding, applying some thick double-sided tape to the back and then just sticking it in place.

So the end result is a hi-resolution, software controlled marquee, with a completely addressable top screen that can be used for anything, limited only by your imagination (and proper software of course)

Speaking of which, here's a video showing a crappy little app I cobbled together that just cycles a few marquees, accompanied by a nice winamp visualization on the "topper".  Keep in mind that it's difficult to photograph illuminated objects.  The quality of the marquee is not being fully represented, but it should provide a taste.



A note to the "detractors":  If I had shown you the above picture first, and a video with a static marquee, I can pretty much guarantee that you would be asking me where I got that skinny LCD panel from 

RandyT

[shardian]

You haven't really been following the thread this long just to crap on the idea before you even see the end result, have you?      

Maybe...

I do think the final product is very nice, but I still am not a big fan of the "betabrite" floating up there.

Do you have any other creative uses in mind for the top part yet? Maybe some creative use of the hiscore.dat file to scroll the top 10 score list for the game being played?

[HaRuMaN]

Cake rocks, by the way... 

[mcfreak]

So do you think this is a cheaper solution than a projector?    NM, I see the price you got it for.  It's basically half the price.  I think it kills that idea with the quality but the top piece is still missing something.  Maybe wrap the top part of the LCD in a Golden Tee LED Header: eBay Link

BTW, Looks pretty incredible.  It was worth the wait! 

[shardian]

So do you think this is a cheaper solution than a projector?     I think it kills that idea with the quality but the top piece is still missing something.  Maybe wrap the top part of the LCD in a Golden Tee LED Header:

BTW, Looks pretty incredible.  It was worth the wait! 

Yeah, I think you are on the right track. It just needs something to make it look more integrated.
In my mind, I visualize a single piece of plexi covering the whole lcd, with a bezel separating the two areas of the lcd.

[RandyT]

Do you have any other creative uses in mind for the top part yet? Maybe some creative use of the hiscore.dat file to scroll the top 10 score list for the game being played?

What the topper can be used for is pretty much limitless.  The high-score idea is a good one.  Here's a few more;

 - Take a picture of your control panel, and label each control with their function on a per game basis.

 - Display the actual instruction cards for the games

 - Run a custom video animation that identifies the machine as "(Your Name here) Arcade machine" while still being able to display the actual marquee for the game being played.

 - Scrolling stock market quotes and international time and weather updates (ok, that one was a joke, but an informational scroll of any type...including high scores, instructions, etc..)

You also don't have to use the full area of the "topper" display just because it's there.  .  Parts can be can be covered, and it absolutely can be framed in with whatever graphics you want.  You can even put a graphic over the middle of the topper and turn it into 2 smaller, separate screens.  However, I don't think that "integrating" the upper section with the marquee section will be nearly as effective, even through a common window.  Doing this is actually a step backward in making the two appear as separate entities.  To keep the effect lucid, the marquee should probably also be static, and the "topper" exhibiting motion of some nature. 

Of course, the marquee area can be used for other things when the cabinet is not in "arcade" mode.  Consider a winamp visualIzation in the marquee area while song/album details are shown on the topper, with music selection choices or the actual music video being shown on the main screen.  This type of thing presents some pretty incredible opportunities for customizing a rig based on what it happens to be doing at that moment.

As for why things were done the way they are... I had an afternoon of time available to do this and I wanted it done.  Originally, a larger frame with some graphics were considered, but the current form is what was dictated by the time I had available to do it.  What you do with yours is limited only by you

RandyT

[markrvp]

Very cool!  Are you going to write a software app that will split the display and call up the appropriate images based on what is needed?

In other words, how do you make the bottom half of the screen show the marquee of the current game playing in MAME while displaying something else on the top half of the screen?

[RandyT]

Very cool!  Are you going to write a software app that will split the display and call up the appropriate images based on what is needed?
In other words, how do you make the bottom half of the screen show the marquee of the current game playing in MAME while displaying something else on the top half of the screen?

I have a simple app that will scan the title of active windows.  It would only take a couple of minutes to modify it to look for MAME: and then match the marquee graphic to the game being played.  The bigger issue is the positioning on the second screen.  When the screen res changes on one screen, the co-ordinates change on both screens.  At the moment, I haven't found a reliable way to monitor the screen res switched to under MAME and compensate the position, but I haven't spent that much time on it yet.  In all actuality, it's probably a function that would be best added by the FE writers, or be accomplished by means of a "plug-in."  Hopefully seeing one of these setups in action will provide a little motivation for adding features like this in the future.

On a side note, another real benefit to this arrangement is that the marquee and topper now becomes usable desktop space.  This can be very handy for systems running arcade accurate resolutions as desktop space tends to be pretty tight at 640x480 resolutions.  For instance, at the moment I have a regular explorer window open on the main screen to browse for music, while the Winamp control panel and playlist are filling the "topper" and G-Force visualization is running in the marquee area.   I mentioned something similar above, but didn't try it until just now

RandyT

[spacies]

I admit.

I was a skeptic. But I think it looks kinda cool now.

How about a video?

[polaris]

I admit.

I was a skeptic. But I think it looks kinda cool now.

How about a video?

click on the pic above

[mountain]

I like it! 

There are so many options for the top section. The hi score idea is a great one. An animated GIF of the machine's control panel pointing out the controls for each game selected would be sick!

Great job Randy!

[Wade]

It looks a lot better than I imagined, and the thought of (and your video) having a realtime marquee change (or change it during attract mode) is awesome!  The way you did it really makes it look like two separate things, I really don't think the average person would realize it's one LCD panel.

Would it be possible to literally remove half of the LCD panel and not render the bottom half useless?  Or is this impossible because of LCD technology?

One of these days, someone is going to make a 24x8 LCD panel, or something close.  When that happens, it will be a sweet day for MAME fans everywhere.

Cake is great, BTW - one of my favorite bands!

Wade

[patrickl]

The end result does look pretty cool.

Maybe having a full TV up on the marquee area wouldn't be a bad idea either. I could use a TV in my game room.

[shardian]

Would it be possible to literally remove half of the LCD panel and not render the bottom half useless?  Or is this impossible because of LCD technology?

Nope, not possible. It's not called a liquid crystal display just for kicks.

[Wade]

Would it be possible to literally remove half of the LCD panel and not render the bottom half useless?  Or is this impossible because of LCD technology?

Nope, not possible. It's not called a liquid crystal display just for kicks.

Well ya know, I'm not an LCD expert.   I thought it was possible that the displays were made up of many lines of liquid, so a break might be possible.

Wade

[dstone]

That is a curious idea... I do wonder if it would be possible to cut off the bottom of the LCD (the ones that I have worked on have had their connectors at the tops); would it not be similar to a cracked display? It would make for an interesting experiment...

Not a very good example, but...: http://www.laptoprepairdirect.com/images/brokenlcdlmed.jpg

Notice how an image is still visible around the cracked areas? That makes me wonder if it would be possible to physically remove a section of the screen (not that I'd want to try that, but if someone already had a cracked screen that still somewhat worked).

[patrickl]

I broke an LCD screen once, but kept using the device until I got a replacement. Over time the "black" stuff leaked all over (inside) the screen till ultimately the whole screen was black. so at first it looks cracked with many parts still visible, but I think it will become completely useless over time.

[ChadTower]

There is absolutely no way it could be done.  It wouldn't be much easier than cutting the bottom half off a CRT without destroying it.

I can't believe he's getting negative feedback for this.  This is a major step in a great direction.  Many of us have talked about doing this but someone actually did it and has it working.  Are we so stuck in one specific hole that we can't consider changing the shape of a cab to accommodate something this great?  You could do anything with that - you could play music videos, attract mode video, keep the current game or high score tables, you could make a set of eyeballs that watch you and rotate back and forth, taunting you pinball style according to certain game events.  Hell, scroll sports scores across it from a net feed.

[dstone]

There is absolutely no way it could be done.

Are we so stuck in one specific frame of thought that we can't consider other ways of modifying the LCD screen? There is always a way to do something, it's just a matter of finding the proper steps to do it. So you've cut the bottom of the screen off, but the liquid starts to leak out... seal it with something. It's one big experiment, just like anything else that's done here. True, in the end, it might be a cheaper/easier solution to simply modify the marquee size instead of the LCD. But you never truly know until you try.

[shardian]

Would it be possible to literally remove half of the LCD panel and not render the bottom half useless?  Or is this impossible because of LCD technology?

Well I'll be damned. Apparently it is possible to cut down existing lcd panels...
http://www.symbolicdisplays.com/LCD_glass.html
No clue what it would cost though.

If I had to guess though, it would be an extremely difficult and tedious job.

[edge]

Randy - nice job.  I had a hard time visualizing it until I saw your final pic.  It looks awesome - and the silver framing around the topper really does make your mind think it is 2 seperate peices.

So when will the kits be available at GGG?

[ChadTower]

Are we so stuck in one specific frame of thought that we can't consider other ways of modifying the LCD screen?

There is a dramatic difference between changing the shape of a wooden box and trying to fundamentally alter miniaturized display technology.

This is where you look at a simple to implement, new concept, and think hrm... the bottleneck here is a piece of wood.  Let's change the wood and go in a better direction rather than crap on the idea because it doesn't fit my 25 year old wooden box.

[RandyT]

Thanks for all the comments.

RE: Cutting an LCD panel.

I don't doubt at all that it's possible.    But is it possible for you to do it on your kitchen table with a glass cutter from the local hardware store? I worked in the precision optics manufacturing industry for about 10 years and did more than my share of glass cutting... and I'm no stranger to electronics.  Even I wouldn't risk an investment of several hundred dollars attempting something like this.

There are lots of things to consider.  Is a clean room environment necessary?  Will the liquid crystal ooze out as soon as you make the cut? Will whatever sealing agent you attempt to use on the edge actually retain the liquid, and if it does, will it eventually contaminate it to the point that it stops working properly a week or two afterwards?  Can you handle re-routing circuitry that may be present on the edge of the panel, as well as deal with the possibility that the image may need to be rotated to accommodate whatever the layout of the hardware may have forced you to change?

It's also likely that the service offered by this company is restricted to instrumentation displays.  That usually means small.  Not to mention that the word "inexpensive" as used in the field of instrumentation is probably about 10x what you might think is inexpensive   If I were to venture a guess as to what this company would charge to cut down my LCD in a "one-off" situation, I'd say that I would be looking at somewhere between $1200 and $1800 dollars.  But email is free, so see what they say

RandyT

[Knievel]

Good job Randy, nice to see someone finally try this. 

I think a cabinet designed around this idea would be very cool.

[mountain]

Has anyone here ever seen one of these? 



I think it would look good centered in the marquee area with themed artwork from the cabinet in the areas around it.  They are $300 for two on eBay.


■Product Name：12.2 inch sun-visor LCD monitor

■Screen Type: TFT LCD HITACHI             

■Screen size: 12.2" (25/8)

■Blue Screen: Screen become blue when no signal

■Pixel: 1024 (W) x 310 (H) RGB                     

■System: PAL/NTSC

■Supply voltage: DC 12V                           

■Power: 21W

■Dimension: 360mm (W) x 24mm(D) x 150mm (H)

[unclet]

Very nice job ...... 

What program were you using to get the voice to move the lines on the top portion of the display? 

[GadgetGeek]

Nicely done.  I guess now when you host kareoke nite, you can scroll the lyrics across the top for everyone to enjoy.

[RandyT]

What program were you using to get the voice to move the lines on the top portion of the display? 

Just Winamp with the "FunkyFX" Visualization.  That one doesn't do a lot, but this particular effect works well and it creates a border-less, re-sizable window to run in.  Other windowed vizualizations work well too, but the border needs to be hid outside the screen area.

RandyT

[ChadTower]

Has anyone here ever seen one of these? 

That has been suggested but not tried yet.  I think the size presents issues similar to this one in that you'd have to account for it in the cab design or work around it like Randy is... but still, definitely possible with some ingenuity.

[AcidArmitage]

get one for a hummer... then itll be the right size 

[RandyT]

Even the largest "visor" LCD available (the 12.2") is only 3.75" x 11.5"  or very close to the size of a piece of letter paper folded in half lengthwise.  Unless you are building a countertop cabinet, I think it would suffer the same look  as a 13" monitor does in a cabinet large enough to house a 27".

The problem we have is that there are 100,000x more vehicles with visors than there are arcade cabinets that need marquee sized LCD panels.  In case anyone has ever wondered why 13" LCD TV's cost as much as 26" LCD TVs, it's because usually only oddballs who absolutely need a 13" for some reason are the ones buying them.  Therefore, they end up absorbing a higher percentage of the tooling and manufacturing costs per unit than the majority who will want a larger, more common size.

IOW, we are screwed 

RandyT

[BobA]

Great work Randy.  Someone has to reach out and explore the boundaries of our comfort zone.   Your initial work in this area could be the catalyst for a whole new generation of LCD enhanced cabs.

[ChadTower]

Still, you could do some cool things in that same space with two 12" LCDs.  Think outside the box for the display possibilities... I think many people are really suffering from tunnel vision on what can be done here.  There is more than we've come up with so far.  Rather than sit around trying to find ways to make a marquee shaped LCD we would be better served to rethink how that area of a cabinet is used and take advantage of the LCDs to do things that never would have been possible 20 years ago.

[Sidgoop]

Bravo, sir.  Bravo.

[patrickl]

Think outside the box for the display possibilities... I think many people are really suffering from tunnel vision on what can be done here. 

Why do you keep insisting that there are only negative remarks? I have seen one remark that could be taken as negative, but even there it was praised as a cool idea.

Besides, people are actually thinking about the possibilities

[arcadefever]

  very nice

this is the futur for a new Marquee generation ....

 

[Spyridon]

Excellent work!  I like it just the way it is, especially with the silver around it.  I can really envision showing the controls for each game on the top with instructions.

[ChadTower]

Why do you keep insisting that there are only negative remarks?

Haven't said that or implied it, bro.  I'm expressing surprise that there is any negative feedback on this.

[MikeQ]

An interesting approach would be to use an LCD projector or possibly build and overhead LCD projector from an LCD panel with a mirror and some optics.  You could project the images onto the marquee area only and mask off the rest.  The system could reside in the space above the monitor and project from behind. 

[bfauska]

An interesting approach would be to use an LCD projector or possibly build and overhead LCD projector from an LCD panel with a mirror and some optics.  You could project the images onto the marquee area only and mask off the rest.  The system could reside in the space above the monitor and project from behind. 

Been done

The downside is the same as any projector in a strong ambient light situation, low contrast and potentially washed out images.  In the dark it's really cool though.


I wonder if a cabinet with the marquee part of the LCD at the top and the instruction panel for your controls at the bottom would look a little more natural.  I think for a scrolling display or some sort of auxiliary display with high scores or music visualization having the marquee at the bottom makes sense, but with one half as an "instruction card/controls example" a different layout would be beneficial.

I think that a little bartop like Lew's galaga, or one of psychotech's with the visor LCD would be way too freaking cool.  Anybody got a few hundred bucks burning a hole in their pocket for a bartop marquee?


Cool project Randy.

[patrickl]

An interesting approach would be to use an LCD projector or possibly build and overhead LCD projector from an LCD panel with a mirror and some optics.  You could project the images onto the marquee area only and mask off the rest.  The system could reside in the space above the monitor and project from behind. 

Been done

The downside is the same as any projector in a strong ambient light situation, low contrast and potentially washed out images.  In the dark it's really cool though.

A projector with a lamp (instead of leds) would produce enough light. Many projectors work fine in daylight even projected on a huge area. Let alone when it's projected on something as small as a marquee. I'd worry about the lamp dying often and the heat and sound though.

Either way I'd say an LCD would be more practical.

I really love the idea. I'm pretty sure if I ever actually get a cab built I will put a TV up there too. It will save me a marquee print

[ChadTower]

I'd say a projector would have too many issues with alignment, focus, etc... they're not small or inexpensive, either, and can be noisy with strong ventilation requirements.  Plus the bulb runs out.  In the absence of LCDs, projectors would be the best way to do this, but with all of the various LCDs out there I just don't see a reason for it to be more viable for a marquee.

Now, I could think of half a dozen really cool ways to use a projector in a cab, just not for the marquee.  Imagine a Dragon's Lair type setup with the secondary monitor up above but projected on the wall 8' wide.

[shardian]

Why do you keep insisting that there are only negative remarks? I have seen one remark that could be taken as negative, but even there it was praised as a cool idea.

Besides, people are actually thinking about the possibilities

Chad's just taking the high horse because I beat him to his usual Debbie Downer role.

I spoke before the final product was unveiled, mainly because I just didn't like the direction it was going.
The more I think about this, the more I like it.

[ChadTower]

Chad's just taking the high horse because I beat him to his usual Debbie Downer role.

    

This is actually a concept Randy and I have discussed in main multiple times.  I've never been in a position to give it a shot but I'm ecstatic to see that he is doing it.  I'm excited about this one.  I am of the opinion that all of the next round of strong innovations in DIY cabs are going to come from LCD usage, just like the last round came from new lighting methods (much of it thanks to Randy) and the round before that came from front end development.  Front ends really gave cabs a strong usability to versatility ratio, the LED capabilities in CPs gave cabs strong eye candy... the LCD round, though, that's where the real eye popping "holy crap" innovations will be found.

[theCoder]

Very cool idea.  The top portion does look a bit out of place however.  What about:

1)  Embrace the fact that it is a monitor, and extend the marquee area.  This would "just" take a little wood, bondo, and time.

2) Cover the top section up with a simulated speaker area.  I've got a this cab in my garage.  It has a large speaker section up top.

Either way, very nice use of the technology.  Thanks for the hacking documentation.

[Wade]

You know, a cabinet shaped like that could offer another possibility of hiding the lower half of the marquee instead of the top half... (behind the bezel/glass - inside the cabinet).

Wade

[ChadTower]

Meh, if you're going to do that, which I think is a good route, don't hide any of the LCD.  Why limit yourself just because they were always shaped that way?

[FrizzleFried]

Just get a Mappy (or build one)...



...and then you can just use a full sized LCD...

[RandyT]

You know, a cabinet shaped like that could offer another possibility of hiding the lower half of the marquee instead of the top half... (behind the bezel/glass - inside the cabinet).

I think it's a good design for someone looking for an Active Marquee™, but who still wants to maintain the classic look.  I actually considered the concept of burying the rest of the display behind the CRT area in that kind of cabinet, but two things bothered me.  One is that I never cared much for cabinet designs that are angled too far upward without the overhang.  They tend to get more reflections, although if the angle isn't too extreme, I think it might be ok.

The other is that it would drive me nuts knowing that I buried 40% of the usable screen space

RandyT

[blueznl]

Damn, nice idea, looks great!

[javeryh]

Just get a Mappy (or build one)...



...and then you can just use a full sized LCD...

or...

[RandyT]

OK, a few posts back I mentioned that monitoring the current game being used in MAME and then throwing up the proper marquee wouldn't be too difficult for me to put in place.  So here's a working system.  BTW, I also manged to keep the marquee in the right spot, even after changing resolutions in the  games.

Anyone know where to get better marquee images? The ones in the video are the standard ones that have been upsampled and converted to JPG's.  IOW, mostly ok, but bleah...



The video is a longer one this time (14+ megs, ~4mins..click the picture to download it)  showing selections being made in an old version of Emu-Loader.  I used Emu-loader to show that there is no marquee work being done by the front end software.  You could load MAME from the command line and the marquee will still change to the correct game.  If no marquee exists for the game, the "default" marquee is displayed. 

RandyT

[csa3d]

Ok.. that's pretty badd ass.  Like the top screen or not, the face that you get a marquee per game rules.  Good stuff! 

[ChadTower]

Awesome.  And that's just the tip of the iceburg.

[arcadefever]

OMG 

this is so coooooooooooooolllll   

probably one of the most impressive project ever 

[Knievel]

Well Randy having the marquee static and the top part scrolling really sells that area as a separate display.

As for finding nice marquee images I would hit the AAL and grab all the ones they have there. You can get high quality versions of some classic games..

Arcade Art Library

[ratzz]

I think it's great, one thing I'd like to ask though ...

How many sleepless nights did you have while you were putting it all together!!

Congrats ... 

[mcfreak]

Anyone know where to get better marquee images? The ones in the video are the standard ones that have been upsampled and converted to JPG's.  IOW, mostly ok, but bleah...

RandyT

You could also try Mr. Do's set.http://www.mameworld.net/mrdo/mame_artwork.html
He has a list that shows if it is 300dpi or not, etc. 

Also, getting the Top score scrolling up there would be amazing.  I see many projects being updated with this look! Will MAME spit out the current score of the game you are playing while you are playing it?  Might be cool to see that score changing up there as you play.  This really does open up so many options.  Now where do I get the $220 deal at K-mart

[johnm160]

Now that is SWEET! 

[Zero_Hour]

Pure Greatness.

[Xiaou2]

Pretty Sweet. 

  Heres an idea...

  For the top panel, display a cabinet picture (or 3d cabinet model)
and next to it, the control panel picture. 

 In game select mode...  You could have a row of 3d cabinets on top
that scroll left to right as you are scrolling thru the lists. 

 (or just use the cabinet pics scrolling by)

[ChadTower]

I say play Skid Row videos on it 24/7. 

[Knievel]

Hell YA! 

[MikeQ]

In several years you'll be able get polymer OLED displays, cut them to size and slap them into your marquee.  You'll even be able to bend them into curves and such.

[theCoder]

It definitely looks much better with the scrolling text. 

How are you controlling/managing the two images?  Custom software I presume running as a background task?  Good stuff.

[RandyT]

In several years you'll be able get polymer OLED displays, cut them to size and slap them into your marquee.  You'll even be able to bend them into curves and such.

They've been promising those things for years now.  They were originally touted as being the thing to overcome many of the problems of LCD displays, but I think they may have lost a little steam now that LCD technology has improved and is getting cheaper.  Still, the promise sounds good if they can actually deliver.

How are you controlling/managing the two images?  Custom software I presume running as a background task?  Good stuff.

A fairly simple little app that monitors applications running on the system.  When it finds what it's looking for, it parses out the game information and then loads the proper marquee.  The same method, if expanded,  could be used to display instructions or light controls based on those used in the games, rotate monitors, what have you, regardless of the FE software currently being used.

There's also the cheesy scrolling text window.  It's ok, but VB just isn't fast enough to do this well.  Anybody want to make a good scrolling text control with adjustable speed and and scroll granularity?

RandyT

[MikeQ]

OLED is very much alive.  Sony is heavily invested in it. 

OLED is in many products.  The size of the displays are small right now.  Like semiconductors the price comes down and yield goes up.  Once the yield in manufacturing is achieved you will see both larger and cheaper displays.

[Dmod]

Congrats, Randy.   

That's just about one of the coolest things I've seen on a custom arcade cabinet.

[RenegadeX]

OLED is very much alive.  Sony is heavily invested in it. 

OLED is in many products.  The size of the displays are small right now.  Like semiconductors the price comes down and yield goes up.  Once the yield in manufacturing is achieved you will see both larger and cheaper displays.

The trouble with OLEDs is the MTBF of the screens. Certain colors start to fade faster than others. We're talking years, but still much less than current tech (LCD/CRT/Plasma).

What about using a normal-sized flat panel and using a mirror to compress/bounce the image to a marquee-sized screen? A crappy (oops, I meant "inexpensive") LCD projector could do the same thing. You'd have to account for the parallax effect (the screen would end up squished, so your source images/display would have to be stretched horizontally to compensate.

Either way, it seems like overkill for a part of the cab that is probably a lower design priority than the control panel and main screen.

Personally, I'd like a second screen to handle pinball sim stuff, like LCD/display matrix on top of a table simulation...

[ARTIFACT]

woah!!!!

[nipsmg]

ok seriously...

 

[headkaze]

Can't believe I missed this thread, great work Randy very impressive.

Just Winamp with the "FunkyFX" Visualization.  That one doesn't do a lot, but this particular effect works well and it creates a border-less, re-sizable window to run in.  Other windowed vizualizations work well too, but the border needs to be hid outside the screen area.

Simple way to remove the border of an external application:

Code: [Select]

SetWindowLong hGForceWnd, GWL_STYLE, 0&
As for a nice scrolly, I think you've done a great job there. A long time ago I wrote a DirectDraw scroller in VB6 which had some cool effects like distorted text and all that. But even with DirectDraw the scrolling is pretty slow and if you skip too many pixels to speed it up it gets too hard to read. If your interested I can find the code for you. I also wrote an app in VB6 to control G-Force externally, you can have a copy of that too if you want.

One day they will have LCD screens that will slot right into place, and I've been waiting around for OLEDs too. It's really nice to see someone play around with the idea. I would like to see you write a plugin for your FE so when you actually scroll through the list the marquee shows. Perhaps you could have it rotate through other artwork too.

Everyone talked about it, now finally someone did it!

[RandyT]

Simple way to remove the border of an external application:

Code: [Select]

SetWindowLong hGForceWnd, GWL_STYLE, 0&

The app isn't being launched from code, but I'll keep that one in mind.

A long time ago I wrote a DirectDraw scroller in VB6 which had some cool effects like distorted text and all that. But even with DirectDraw the scrolling is pretty slow and if you skip too many pixels to speed it up it gets too hard to read. If your interested I can find the code for you.

The flicker the most annoying part.  Anything that gets rid of that would be an improvement. 

I would like to see you write a plugin for your FE so when you actually scroll through the list the marquee shows. Perhaps you could have it rotate through other artwork too.

I don't have an FE   The one shown is EmuLoader by Ciro.  The app I wrote runs in the background.  I don't mind the way it works, actually.  It gives the machine a feeling of "transformation" by changing the marquee only when the FE boots that particular game, and otherwise shows the name of my cab (which I can change at will )

RandyT

[RetroACTIVE]

I may have missed this point... but how are you driving 2 displays independently...Are you using 2 video cards?

[leapinlew]

I may have missed this point... but how are you driving 2 displays independently...Are you using 2 video cards?

 

You should probably read the whole thread, or at least part of the thread. 

[RetroACTIVE]

I may have missed this point... but how are you driving 2 displays independently...Are you using 2 video cards?

 

You should probably read the whole thread, or at least part of the thread. 

thought I did... but I was just so darn excited!

[shardian]

I may have missed this point... but how are you driving 2 displays independently...Are you using 2 video cards?

And Randy went thru the effort of delaying the final results to dispel these exact questions.

[ChadTower]

I just reviewed the whole thread... I don't see that info in it, to be fair to this guy.

[RandyT]

Just a dual output display card.  Uses standard Windows "virtual desktop across multiple monitors" stuff.

RandyT

[Dire Radiant]

Ok I admit it, when I first read what you were going to do with the monitor sticking out of the top of the cabinet I was convinced it would look like 100% pure ass.

Sometimes I just LOVE it when I'm wrong! 

[headkaze]

The flicker the most annoying part.  Anything that gets rid of that would be an improvement. 

Okay, I'm feeling generous today Attached is some code I worked tirelessly on back in the days. These were part of a project that never got finished.

The first project "Scroller1" was my attempt at writing a smooth scroller using pure VB6. I think it's just a label or something from memory, but it's probably somthing similar to what you've written. I did a fair amount of research to reduce the flickering, so this might be enough for your needs.

"Scroller2" was alot of work back then and I was pretty new to VB6 and Windows programming. It's a painstaken port of C++ code (you may notice that when you look at mDXScroller.bas). It's pretty cool, it has some wild effects applied to the scrolling text using all sorts of funky DD blitting. That runs really smooth on my machine now, it was pretty slow on my old PC. You will probably need to modify it to suit your needs. The fact VB6 didn't allow threads means anything you do in the GUI can stop the scroller from moving.

"G-Force" is part of this same program that was used to control this program externally. It sends the key commands to make G-Force do things from your application. It also shows how to move the G-Force window places on any monitor and remove the border etc. You have to place the actual G-Force application in the appropriate folder.

Have fun, and let me know if it's of any use to your project

[Santoro]

Somehow just saw this now. 

This is sweet.  I am looking forward to see how other folks implement it.  Lots of good ideas in here.

[Akuma]

So, reading all this, I guess using a secondary monitor to display marquees is out of reach for someone, who has no idea of how to code with VB or any other code? Or are there other tools available that display pics on a secondary monitor while playing mame?

[Cakemeister]

Hey Headkaze,

Do you have some code to vertically smooth-scroll a set of lines of text?

[Fozzy The Bear]

So, reading all this, I guess using a secondary monitor to display marquees is out of reach for someone, who has no idea of how to code with VB or any other code? Or are there other tools available that display pics on a secondary monitor while playing mame?

Sorry for replying to thread from way back in December, but it's grabbed my interest as I'm just completing the top half of my new cab.

It's not as difficult as it sounds..... It's jsut a dual head monitor setup. You can display whatever you like on the second monitor. As long as you don't want the functionality of displaying the marquee related to the game being played you could just run a slideshow app on the second monitor at the same time as running Mame on the first one. The downside to all of this is speed. The whole thing bogs down the emulator speed by tying the processor and graphics card up to do the top display at the same time.

Maybe a better solution would be to have a separate PC running Mame and network that to a very basic PC running the Marquee. A very small app on the main PC could then communicate which marquee to display, to the second PC. This would eliminate any load on the emulation running.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[torcer]

Amazing, please adopt me.

[Jetson]

All I've got to say is....."WOW!!! That is some Bad AZZ shiat!" 

[Fozzy The Bear]

Anyone know where to get better marquee images? The ones in the video are the standard ones that have been upsampled and converted to JPG's.

Ermmm yeah!.... you should have a 500Gig hard drive full of marquees somewhere Randy LOL    Doh!!:

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[D-Lew]

Ok.  I'm sorry.  That is incredible.

[RandyT]

It's not as difficult as it sounds..... It's jsut a dual head monitor setup. You can display whatever you like on the second monitor. As long as you don't want the functionality of displaying the marquee related to the game being played you could just run a slideshow app on the second monitor at the same time as running Mame on the first one. The downside to all of this is speed. The whole thing bogs down the emulator speed by tying the processor and graphics card up to do the top display at the same time.

I have an Athlon XP 1900 in that machine and the performance impact, if any, is not noticeable.  If you were just looking to put up the marquee and perhaps an instruction card or high score, the real processing is done before the game is launched.  Anything else is just a tiny, relatively infrequent check to see what is running.

Ermmm yeah!.... you should have a 500Gig hard drive full of marquees somewhere Randy LOL    Doh!!:

Hehe.  I was waiting for someone to say that.  I did scout out a few and convert them, but I was hoping that someone else had already done this and added the higher quality versions as part of a MAME collection somewhere (like our friend Mr. Do)

Based on all of the other projects I'm working on currently, I know it's one of those things I'll never get around to do myself.

RandyT

[Avrus]

Simply amazing Randy.  Your ingenuity never ceases to astound.

[Fozzy The Bear]

Based on all of the other projects I'm working on currently, I know it's one of those things I'll never get around to do myself.

Yes absolutely.... How dare you work on anything for yourself Now stop wasting time on here and get that 49 way sorted this instant you naughty boy!!  Or Mr Hand will be meeting Mr Botty for a high velocity physics experiment

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[G1zm0]

ive got a golden tee caB with the marquee and scroller took out i could prob put a 22widescreen in there.
would this work with a arcadevga(driving polo 2)
  and would i need another gfx card to drive the top lcd?

[NIVO]

run the GGG banner. Nothing wrong with a shameless plug of your goods Randy 

I am no photoshop wizard by any stretch but you get the idea.

[RandyT]

run the GGG banner. Nothing wrong with a shameless plug of your goods Randy 

Heh,  I should have thought of that.  But the product promotion is probably already shameless enough, considering it's attached to every post I make

RandyT


(whoops! There it is again!  )

[ryantheleach]

hmm, depending on your screen angle you could have it jutting out the bottom of the marquee with an instruction card type thing...

[Spaced Ace]

Dude, that is insane.   It's cool and all, but I could think of some better thing to do with a $2,000 plasma screen tv, like watch cable.  Better than that, I could use $2000 period. 

So, now that arcade is worth about 8 grand now?

And where is this K-Mart at that gives these LCD tvs away for free basicaly? 

Sheesh....

[RandyT]

Dude, that is insane.   It's cool and all, but I could think of some better thing to do with a $2,000 plasma screen tv, like watch cable.  Better than that, I could use $2000 period. 

So, now that arcade is worth about 8 grand now?

You are off by a factor of about ten there.  I wouldn't put a $2000 plasma in for that either.  Maybe for a virtual pinball machine, though.

And where is this K-Mart at that gives these LCD tvs away for free basicaly? 

I'm really glad I picked that one up when I did.  I have no idea why they were being closed out, but I haven't yet found another at a similar price.  I would have thought that the price on this size would be much better by now, but instead, they cram more features into them and seem to have stalled the price.

Someday the price will drop and we will be ready

RandyT

[Spaced Ace]

Well dont know if you noticed Randy, but K-Mart has been in trouble since Sears took them over.  They have been closing stores left and right.  Sad to think that of K-Mart, cause when I was a kid, way before Wal-Mart, thats all we had.  K-Mart, with the consesion stand in the front, you know, ICEE's, Star Wars & G.I. Joe and of course the arcade a few stores down.

Anyway, you lucked out bro.  Nice work man on the arcade....

But youre wrong about one thing.  Someone, somewhere would pay at least $8,000 for that machine.  I mean, if they can sell the MAME Multi-cabs for $5000, I know yours is way better than those with a plasma screen.  Jut really cool though.

[RandyT]

Well dont know if you noticed Randy, but K-Mart has been in trouble since Sears took them over.

Yeah, I'm aware of the Sears takeover.  It was a case of two troubled business helping to prop each other up.  But this was likely just a matter of moving out old stock.  To be honest, this isn't the greatest LCD for watching TV.  There are no user selectable scaling options.  It just fills the screen in the worst way possible (linear scale).  Fine for marquees, not so great for TV.

And yes, I do have fond memories of my local K-mart as well. Ours has a huge front lobby that long ago introduced me to PONG, Donkey Kong and pinball.  I loved it when mom went shopping there, for obvious reasons.

Thanks for the compliments.

RandyT

[richms]

Yeah, I'm aware of the Sears takeover.  It was a case of two troubled business helping to prop each other up.  But this was likely just a matter of moving out old stock.  To be honest, this isn't the greatest LCD for watching TV.  There are no user selectable scaling options.  It just fills the screen in the worst way possible (linear scale).  Fine for marquees, not so great for TV.

Whys that a problem for watching TV? The only problem I can see is the lack of a crop mode for the few channels that are letterboxed 4:3 occasionally, but since they look like trash when blown up fullscreen, seeing them postagestamped is something I can live with.

[RandyT]

Whys that a problem for watching TV? The only problem I can see is the lack of a crop mode for the few channels that are letterboxed 4:3 occasionally, but since they look like trash when blown up fullscreen, seeing them postagestamped is something I can live with.

That's the problem with this set (for TV viewing, not as a marquee).  The default and only mode is "blown up full-screen".  It just stretches everything linearly and you can't shut it off.  Ok for widescreen content, but 4:3 looks poor (I'd rather deal with sidebars.)

RandyT

[richms]

Does your settop box not pillarbox the few remaining 4:3 channels that are not taken care of by the broadcasters? I have only seen 4:3 mode on a few PC LCDs, but its pretty rare to not see it on something sold as a tv since if your watching old VHS or analog off air you have nothing to add the bars, and all the old sat boxes in pal countries left it out since back in the days it was done by the TV via scart signalling.

Not that you can second use it for TV with the middle stripe being obscured with the bezel

[wolfsoft]

great work. RandyT !

It is possible to get the infos, how it works with the frontend?
I want to make it for my cabinet too and I am using MaLa as Frontend.
It is a special layout you are using for the marquee display?
Can you post it?

Thanks for your time

[havoc29]

Hi RandyT!

That's an amazing cab you have there!!

well.. im also working in a cab similar to yours.. but more (very) modest 

Instead of that big lcd, i'm using the ps1 lcd hack, just to display info about the game that's playing..just shows a 640x480 jpg...

But i'm having trouble finding an app the does that for me...

Will you be willing to share your app that does that for you? i would be very appreciated..!!!

thanks!

Regards
Carlos

[Hollywood]

Yes...I would like this program as well.  I am thinking of designing my own lcd marquee but I would like to see the software side working first.  Anyway you can send it my way?

Thanks in advance,

Lance

PS Keep up the great work.  You are a credit to this community with all your products.

[BobA]

Bump

Just to bring back a great idea.   TVs are alot cheaper now.

[shateredsoul]

I wonder why no one has made an lcd marquee you can buy, would it just not be profitable?

[Santoro]

Large upfront engineering costs + very small target market = high risk.

[ccmathome]

I've thought about doing something just like this, my cab has a large marquee pretty sure I could fit a 22" lcd there.

[DarkKobold]

A member from very long ago logs in to show you this


http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/106521954/Spanpixel_High_Brightness_LED_Backlight_LCD_Creative_Shape_LCD_Module.html


The only place I found specs was here, in german:
http://www.mpi.ch/products/industrial_computers/accessories_chassis_monitors/lcd_displays_tft_monitors/litemax_tft_lcd_kit_and_monitors/litemax_lcd/spanpixel_streched_lcd.html

I have yet to find one for sale, but this may be the new answer to having an LCD marquee.

[Yvan256]

I have yet to find one for sale, but this may be the new answer to having an LCD marquee.

Not sure it's the same monitor but I also found a PDF:
http://www.tokyo.numata.co.jp/products_n/it_system/lcd_solution/litemax/SSD3912_3915.pdf


And for bartops, those "visor LCD" ones seem to fit the bill too.
If you search a bit, you can find ones that are "ultra-wide" such as:
http://www.amazon.com/PLVSR10GR-10-2-Inch-Right-Visor-Monitors/dp/B0029V9CV6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1272327914&sr=1-2

Yes they seem to stretch the image, however all you need to do is prepare your marquee images so that once stretched they appear with the correct aspect ratio. And since they seem to have more pixels than the 16:9 ratio, maybe someone will figure out how to hack them to address all pixels individually.

[Bender]

Litemax scanpixle
I got a call in for pricing for one that has a display size of 27.5" x 10.25", seems just about the right size
so we'll see
I think it going to be BIG$$

[Yvan256]

Litemax scanpixle
I got a call in for pricing for one that has a display size of 27.5" x 10.25", seems just about the right size
so we'll see
I think it going to be BIG$$

Did you get a list of all the available sizes? And do all sizes have DVI, VGA and S-Video inputs?

[Bender]

they have 3 sizes, I think this is width w/bezel
15.9"
29.3"
39.1"
Details here

I think they are made to order so you can get them with any combination of VGA, DVI and component

*Edit* just got a price on a 29" one $1475  
I was hoping for $800 or less
such a shame, seems perfect, maybe they'll come down in price someday
All the details are in the PDF below

[DarkKobold]

If they are making each one individually, maybe a group order would drop the price?

Anyway, sad, I thought I'd found the perfect solution.

[Bender]

I asked about a discount for multiples and they said that would ordering hundreds of units

you did find the solution, I used your guys info and did just a bit more searching, never would have found it without your lead

[DarkKobold]

I contacted an LCD cutter about making a marquee.
http://www.tannas.com/html/amlcd.html

Mr. Tannas
      I stumbled across your website for cut LCDs looking to perform the same task myself. I wanted to introduce you to a possible market for your device/services. People build custom arcade cabinets that play multiple arcade games, known as MAME cabinets. One aesthetic desire is to have a marquee that changes with the game. However, given the standard marquee size (24x7), it is extremely difficult to find an LCD of a reasonable size. Here is an example of a project that someone has done, with a full LCD.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=70840.0

I'm not sure what your price range is, but if this is of interest to you, you may want to let the community know your price ranges/availability. Thank you for your time.

It is definitely of interest to me. What you desire should be resizable from a 28" HDTV.  I charge $1,500 to cut the LCD glass which my customer provides and remount it into its original frame for testing.  My customer then puts it into his frame as may be appropriate fro his product.  This is a prototyping cost and there is no NRE.

Regards, Larry

It sounds like a high prototyping cost, but possibly a cheaper model afterward. Unfortunately, we'd need lots of people to make the prototyping cost effective. 

Just another possibility.
 

[bazaillion]

Why not use a $250 Optoma Pico PK201 WVGA (854 x 480) DLP projector with a piece of frosted rear projection acrylic. letter boxed with a filter of some sorts. there about the size of a cell phone.

[RandyT]

Why not use a $250 Optoma Pico PK201 WVGA (854 x 480) DLP projector with a piece of frosted rear projection acrylic. letter boxed with a filter of some sorts. there about the size of a cell phone.

From the review;

Throw distance and lens performance: The PK201 has a fixed throw ratio of 2.20:1. When using the PK201 as a secondary computer monitor, I was limited to a 10-inch wide screen size by the 22.5 inch width of my desk.

It will also not look very "marquee-like".  With a decent LCD panel, it's hard to tell it's not painted and backlit.  I could probably even fix that with some shading at the edges of the bitmaps to simulate drop off.

RandyT

[bazaillion]

put the projector on back down lower bank to screen with a mirror

[bazaillion]

As for LCD I agree it would look best.

Here is the patent filed for how they do resize LCD's. Seems like you could find someone with a CO laser cutter or a water jet and get it done cheaper possibly. They seal it with UV curable adhesives.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7161651/description.html] [url]http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7161651/description.html[/url]

[RandyT]

put the projector on back down lower bank to screen with a mirror

Been done.  Also, the further you go, the dimmer the light.  The reviewer stated that "Image sizes up of to fifty percent greater are viewable in normal, non-direct room lighting.", which is a paltry 15" diagonal.  With only 18 lumen to play with, you'll run out of light fast.  You also need a totally unobstructed light path, large first surface mirrors (to avoid a 4% ghost image from the face of the glass), etc.  If it was a $50 toy that one could re-purpose for this, then it might be worth the effort.  But not at the cost of an LCD, which gets the job done faster, easier and at better quality.

As for the patent, IANAL, but I think they will have a hard time enforcing that one.  It's an approach anyone with half a brain would take, let alone be pretty obvious to anyone who is "skilled in the art".  But writing about how to do it and actually being able to are hugely different, and the second one is full of nuances you won't find in that patent.

RandyT

[Wade]

As for the patent, IANAL, but I think they will have a hard time enforcing that one.  It's an approach anyone with half a brain would take, let alone be pretty obvious to anyone who is "skilled in the art".  But writing about how to do it and actually being able to are hugely different, and the second one is full of nuances you won't find in that patent.

RandyT

My guess is that it's not about protection, it's about marketing (being able to truthfully claim "our patented process...")

Wade

[Rick]

If anybody has been keeping up with technology lately, this could be possible in the next few years by going OLED.  Read here.  From the article:

DuPont  stated in a press release in May 2010 that they can produce a 50-inch OLED TV in two minutes with a new printing technology. If this can be scaled up in terms of manufacturing, then the total cost of OLED TVs would be greatly reduced. Dupont also states that OLED TVs made with this less expensive technology can last up to 15 years if left on for a normal eight hour day.

I've read more than a few articles, and with this 'flexible' display technology, they were even discussing the possibility of a TV you can roll or fold up, much like a modern day newspaper.

[Yvan256]

I've read more than a few articles, and with this 'flexible' display technology, they were even discussing the possibility of a TV you can roll or fold up, much like a modern day newspaper.

That would mean not only dynamic marquees, but curved dynamic marquees as well.

[Rick]

That would mean not only dynamic marquees, but curved dynamic marquees, side and control panel graphics as well.

Fix'd!

 

[HaRuMaN]

How cool would that be?  Have the sideart and cpo change based on what game you are playing...  *drool* 

[Yvan256]

That would mean not only dynamic marquees, but curved dynamic marquees, side and control panel graphics as well.

Fix'd!

 

I'm also waiting for electrochromic molded plastic so that we can have buttons with the correct colors of the game played. LED-lit buttons don't look right IMHO.

[Yvan256]

How cool would that be?  Have the sideart and cpo change based on what game you are playing...  *drool* 

But did you think about all the work needed to crop/rework all the sideart and cpo overlays of the games to fit your own cabinet? 

[HaRuMaN]

How cool would that be?  Have the sideart and cpo change based on what game you are playing...  *drool* 

But did you think about all the work needed to crop/rework all the sideart and cpo overlays of the games to fit your own cabinet? 

It would be worth it!   

[DirtnSnowRyder]

I know this is an older thread but i just need to get this off my chest...

I haaaaaaate you guys! Especially people like Randy T!
This arcade thing requires Time, Money and Patience. And those things are in short supply for me these days. So just when I think I've got my cabinet figured out someone goes and figures out how to make it even better. Uuuugghhh!
I'll say one thing for sure is that I have had to compromise a lot with my wife to have one in my home. So if i tell her, Honey just one more $200 LCD. Oh and you wont be able to park in the garage for about a month. (That's how long it will take me to finish something like that).
You people! Have you no mercy!

Anyway enough of that.

RandyT - Is the cab still look the same as in the pics/video? Anything new you doing that I will have to sell blood/collect cans/pawn household items to get? Seriously, nice job. As its been said previously, you have elevated this crazy "sport" to new heights. Curses to you incredibly imaginative, and talented people!
Sorry, I may have missed it but i believe you said you wrote an app to display the marquee. Is that publicly available and/or for sale? I'm not ready for it yet but it would help me decide if i wanted to piss off my wife and forgo a new snowboard this winter. Or if i had to write my own stuff. Heaven forbid.

[Yvan256]

I'm also wondering how to display the marquees. Does MAME or one of the Launcher has the ability to send the ROM file name via a serial port? That's the minimum I would need for my mini-MVS cabinet. The AVR would receive the ROM filename via serial and fetch/display the appropriate image stored in external flash memory.

[shilmover]

Randy,

This is great...  I thought of doing something like this a couple of years ago, but the cost was prohibitive...

Now I know my next project (now that the Hyper Pinball is nearly done).

[Gray_Area]

Thinking about the details of this project....why not treat the screen like a pinball backglass? Two configurations that come to mind:

1. It could display your front end interface, minus the game list, which would appear on the main screen.

2. The top screen would display your FE; the main screen would display  game videos for the game highlighted on the top screen.

[MKFan4Life]

Now the top of my Gauntlet Legends cab is screaming at me "Mod me!  Mod me!"  Lol!  Looks like it might accept a 24" widescreen LCD panel... hehe.  When not displaying custom marquee images, it could save space in my office as a display for the satellite receiver.

[ericitaquera]

Thank you RandyT for the inspiration.



Do you still have the Led Display Board emulator from the previous post? Can you send me? If not, can you point me other one?

Thanks again!

[Mister Hat]

Hey, nice job ericitaquera! Also, thanks for bumping the topic, I would've felt bad if I did  .

Earlier in the topic I saw someone mention OLED as an alternative. Here's a video I found to prove their point:


You can see it was a pretty crude job, but it does look possible!

[ericitaquera]

Tnx, Mr Hat.

I need just a piece of software to populate de upper half of the top screen.

By now it´s looking just like a "big tv in top of the cab" but I´m gonna add some frames in order to look more like a marquee , like Randy did (since my wife forgive me for the mess I did here in the living room for two weeks in a row I´ll start to work =P).

Regards!

[evh347]

Tnx, Mr Hat.

I need just a piece of software to populate de upper half of the top screen.

By now it´s looking just like a "big tv in top of the cab" but I´m gonna add some frames in order to look more like a marquee , like Randy did (since my wife forgive me for the mess I did here in the living room for two weeks in a row I´ll start to work =P).

Regards!

What software are you using to populate the marquee?

[lcmgadgets]

Okay, first a disclaimer. This isn't spam. I don't work for these guys. I swear I will not profit financially by aiming people at this link (but if I have found what many of us are looking for, you are free to heap praise upon me (and scorn if I have not)). But I found this, and I'm waiting for a response from them to find out what they charge: http://www.taiwantrade.com.tw/litemax/products-list/en_US/118711/Spanpixel__Resizing_LCD_innovative_ultra-wide%2C_sun

[Yvan256]

Okay, first a disclaimer. This isn't spam. I don't work for these guys. I swear I will not profit financially by aiming people at this link (but if I have found what many of us are looking for, you are free to heap praise upon me (and scorn if I have not)). But I found this, and I'm waiting for a response from them to find out what they charge: http://www.taiwantrade.com.tw/litemax/products-list/en_US/118711/Spanpixel__Resizing_LCD_innovative_ultra-wide%2C_sun

I wrote to similar companies. You really, really won't like the price they're asking. 

[synonym9]

Is it true that GroovyMame cannot used with an LCD-Marquee???

[lcmgadgets]

I wrote to similar companies. You really, really won't like the price they're asking. 

Sorry, I've meant to get back to this for ages, but...if u knew what's been going on you'd understand, believe me.

Just wanted to say, boy, were u right! There were 2 models that looked like what I wanted. 1 would have been about $1000, the other about $1200.

[Ipolyfun]

Here is my attempt at using a marquee display with mame. I actually recompiled the code to provide some automatic marquee display in the render layout code. http://www.xevious.site50.net/The%20Bartop%20Arcade%20Machine.html

[Yvan256]

Here is my attempt at using a marquee display with mame. I actually recompiled the code to provide some automatic marquee display in the render layout code.

Did you attempt to disassemble the mirror LCD to see if it would be possible to remove the mirror? Are you using composite video?

[Ipolyfun]

Did you attempt to disassemble the mirror LCD to see if it would be possible to remove the mirror? Are you using composite video?

No I did not try and disassemble it other than removing the spring loaded mounting brackets on the back. It has two composite video inputs. There really isn't a mirror with the unit, it works like a normal video monitor and is not more reflective than a normal screen. The image is squished though.

[Yvan256]

No I did not try and disassemble it other than removing the spring loaded mounting brackets on the back. It has two composite video inputs. There really isn't a mirror with the unit, it works like a normal video monitor and is not more reflective than a normal screen. The image is squished though.

I asked because in the first photo and last two photos, there is so much reflection that it looks like a mirror.

[lcmgadgets]

If I wanted to build something that size, I'd definitely want what you've done! I think it looks awesome!