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DirectDraw vs D3D for native resolutions. Aarons view.
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headkaze:

--- Quote from: ARTIFACT on August 27, 2007, 04:20:09 pm ---in a D3D-only world, it would be possible for a good gpu coder, using HLSL or other pixel hader language, to write a set of shaders that emulate exactly the way dots look on old cga/ega/etc monitors

(see my project thread, page 4, enlarged versions of the dig dug screenshots with true rgb dots etc ... something i've yet to see on anything other than true native res multisync tube monitors)

in this type of situation (GPU pixel shaders), the highest the resolution, the better / most realistic the effect would be

i have yet to hear about somene doing this, but i predict it will happen unless it has already and i missed it.

this would be a whole chain of complex pixel operations done on the GPU on every frame. DX9 card or better would be the requirement. this is similar to how recent games generate sun 'bloom' on cars (etc) in real time. it is procedural and handled by the GPU. it is a very different model than the previous all pre-mapped lighting and rendering model.

have you heard of existng efforts along these lines?

--- End quote ---

I mentioned pixel shaders in the previous thread related to this one. I believe they will be used in Mame in the future.
wpcmame:
>I’m curious why people want to use D3D with the AVGA? If I hear a convincing argument,
>I can be swayed,  but I want to understand the logic.

Artwork crop doesn't work with DirectDraw.

I have my monitor configured to show ~280/560 lines (perfect for vertical and vector games). This means that I get borders around most games. Its to bad that I need to compile my own mame with a D3D patch just to fill these borders with artwork.

>Any interlaced screen is not going to be arcade-real

We can probably debate arcade-real forever but the only difference with interlace is the scanlines. Personally I don't miss them and the artwork looks so much better without visible scanlines.


AndyWarne:

--- Quote from: wpcmame on August 28, 2007, 02:42:20 am ---
Artwork crop doesn't work with DirectDraw.
--- End quote ---

OK another one for Aaron!

--- Quote from: wpcmame on August 28, 2007, 02:42:20 am ---I have my monitor configured to show ~280/560 lines (perfect for vertical and vector games). This means that I get borders around most games. Its to bad that I need to compile my own mame with a D3D patch just to fill these borders with artwork.

>Any interlaced screen is not going to be arcade-real

We can probably debate arcade-real forever but the only difference with interlace is the scanlines. Personally I don't miss them and the artwork looks so much better without visible scanlines.
--- End quote ---

The main difference is the flicker that the 30Hz refresh of alternate lines causes. Arcade games would not flicker like this. Possible exceptions might be some projection screen games.

Howard_Casto:

--- Quote from: wpcmame on August 28, 2007, 02:42:20 am --->I’m curious why people want to use D3D with the AVGA? If I hear a convincing argument,
>I can be swayed,  but I want to understand the logic.

Artwork crop doesn't work with DirectDraw.

I have my monitor configured to show ~280/560 lines (perfect for vertical and vector games). This means that I get borders around most games. Its to bad that I need to compile my own mame with a D3D patch just to fill these borders with artwork.

>Any interlaced screen is not going to be arcade-real

We can probably debate arcade-real forever but the only difference with interlace is the scanlines. Personally I don't miss them and the artwork looks so much better without visible scanlines.




--- End quote ---


Haven't you been listening?  Video cards are phasing out, ddraw and as of now most newer cards preform poorly or not at all in ddraw mode.  As much as I like the AVGA it isn't the only way to display mame on an arcade monitor anymore, with tools like powerstrip and soft 15kz.  And on top of that ddraw basically isn't working anymore on many people's systems, causing stuttering in the sound (extreme stuttering) regardless of the pc's specs or the video card used.  So bascially it isn't a matter of one preference over the other, it's a matter of not having a choice.

To summarize what we've talked about so far, basically you have your choice of d3d, in which older cards aren't supported, stretching works, artwork works and the sound doesn't skip but scaling doesn't work well or ddraw, which might not even work on your setup, doesn't support artwork well, skips the sound and stretching doesn't work well.

So atm, both are essentially "broken" (and I hate to use that word) and atm having either option fully functional would be great.  In the long run, however, it might be best to give d3d the functionality that it lacks from it's ddraw partner as, eventually ddraw won't be supported on cards at all or at least not at a level that would result in a playable game.  That doesn't mean to get rid of ddraw though, because, unfortunately older cards won't support d3d at all. 

At this point it's more of a matter of inproving the functionality of both rather than choosing sides, at least imo.

And just for the record, I love the new artwork system... then again my primary mame cab uses a tv.  ;)
wpcmame:

--- Quote from: AndyWarne on August 28, 2007, 01:29:23 pm ---The main difference is the flicker that the 30Hz refresh of alternate lines causes.
Arcade games would not flicker like this.
--- End quote ---

Flicker is only visible if there is a contrast difference in alternate lines.
If a low-res arcade game is double-sized, the odd and even lines are exactly the same and there is no flicker.

Several arcade games (e.g. tapper and popeye) originally used interlaced display and didn't flicker (except where  intentional like the popeye bee-nest)
[/quote]


--- Quote from: Howard_Casto on August 29, 2007, 03:58:41 am ---Haven't you been listening?  Video cards are phasing out, ddraw and as of now most newer cards preform poorly or not at all in ddraw mode.

--- End quote ---
I Don't understand that comment? I use D3D with my own cleanstretch patch and it works fine also with artwork.

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