The Web - VirtUal Pinball eXTreme

[Ond]

In the mid 90s a pinball game for PC (and other platforms) was released called Pro Pinball The Web. It was DOS based to start with. I remember the game play and realism was really good compared to other PC pinball games at the time. I revisited it many times over the years including more recently. There were other tables released by Cunning Developments including TimeShock! and others, but this was my favourite in the series. I remember thinking "I wish this could be played on a Vpin in a proper playfield aspect"...

Over on the VPForums I noticed that a member mfuegemann had created a VPX table based closely on the original. On current hardware it plays beautifully (and accurately) especially at 4K.  It was all the excuse I needed to start this project. A 3/4 scale Vpin themed around this game!  I will also be working on my other main project - Pac Man Legion in the coming weeks.

Whilst I began construction on the cabinet I also started to work on the artwork.  The only available artwork for this game is some low res stuff for the back glass and a little for the playfield.

I'm using two monitors, a crisp 4K LG for the main display and a high quality NEC 4:3 unit for the back glass. The backglass screen has a res of 1600 x 1200 and I was determined to get artwork to suit.

To kick of the project I'll share the results of that effort 

The original back glass artwork generally looks like this:

Closer up on a 1600 x 1200 screen it looks like this;

My reworking, drawn from scratch ended up like this:

Which close up has more satisfying fidelity:

It looks really nice, bright and clear on the back glass monitor. Plenty of build pics, details and the usual gab you've come to expect from me on the way 

[Ond]

The build so far.

Firstly I must acknowledge other inspirations for building a Vpin.

Malenko's vpin builds got me interested in the first place. You can check out a version of that Here. It's a cute little vpin build fully packed with hardware and looks great finished!

My cabinet is a bit bigger, somewhere around 3/4 scale I guess. That leaves a bit more room for hardware. I'm still undecided about fitting legs to it or having it sit on a table top.. 

I read up on a bunch of build techniques and stuff and then pretty much threw all that out of the window and started making it up as I go along.  Most build information is about full size Vpins and often references real pinball machine fabrication methods. That's all good an all but I have my own criteria for success..so...

Still at raw MDF and Marine Ply build stage. I love pics of other peoples raw timber stage projects so here's a few:

The back glass box has to fold down as per the real thing, so I made my own custom brackets which pivot in bushings fitted into the cabinet.

Fit of the playfield and back glass de-cased monitors:

A look inside at the first fitting of some hardware including Subwoofer amp, main amp, main amp power supply and Vesa mount plate:

View under the vesa mount plate to the  6.5" subwoofer driver:

The main speakers and tweeter arrangement. These fit neatly just behind the back glass monitor with a 3/4 inch or so gap beneath the monitor to allow sound out. (You can see that in a previous pic up above):

Subby from underneath, Its recessed right into the thick timber housing in the cabinet. I may or may not cover it with a grill.

This will be running fairly new PC hardware including:

12th gen Intel i7 CPU
DDR 5 supporting motherboard, 32 GB DDR 5 RAM
RTX 3060 Ti GPU

I'm still undecided about the front end software, happy to take recommendations. Apart from the main theme table it will run perhaps another 8 or so tables.

[Malenko]

You can check out a version of that Here. It's a cute little vpin build fully packed with hardware and looks great finished!

Gingerballs is elated to be mentioned!


I'm sure whatever you make will be a ton better but I'm glad I inspired some people to give it  go. Your pinball is going to have better specs than my main rig (a lowly 11th gen i5-11400F).
The one thing I wished I did different was make the monitor come up like a regular playfield , was kinda hoping yours would so I could steal your method for my next one

[Zebidee]

Great to see more awesome builds coming from you Ond.

If you haven't done so already, be sure to check out Laythe's shape-shifter vpin. Another great project that pays homage to Gingerballs.

Where do you find an NEC 4:3 1600x1200 monitor, and are they expensive?

[Ond]

The one thing I wished I did different was make the monitor come up like a regular playfield , was kinda hoping yours would so I could steal your method for my next one

I'll document my setup with plenty of detail, hopefully it will be useful to you. I remember watching your build come together and thinking "damn I want one like that".

Great to see more awesome builds coming from you Ond.

If you haven't done so already, be sure to check out Laythe's shape-shifter vpin. Another great project that pays homage to Gingerballs.

Where do you find an NEC 4:3 1600x1200 monitor, and are they expensive?

Thanks Zeb, I followed Laythe's Shape-Shifter build at the time in pure AWE. That build is a Tier -1 project of which there are only a few. Laythe is on my A-List of builders, which is a real short list.

Yeah that monitor...I bought it years ago when I actually worked for NEC Australia. We needed a new fridge at the time and that monitor cost more!  I think it predates IPS technology, but the full range viewing angles are astounding, right out to 178º.  Of course pics are the proof, so I'll post them when I get to that stage. Chance of locating one now..very low I'd think. Retail price at the time was about $850, with my employee discount I think I paid about $650.

[javeryh]

Great to see you building again Ond!

What are the overall dimensions of the body? A vPin is on my bucket list but I am really short on space so whatever I build will need to be small although at full height.  3/4 size seems adequate to me.

I've always had Froggerman's woodrail minipin project in the back of my head as something I'd like to strive for in the future... too bad the pics to his thread are gone.

[Ond]

Great to see you building again Ond!

What are the overall dimensions of the body? A vPin is on my bucket list but I am really short on space so whatever I build will need to be small although at full height.  3/4 size seems adequate to me.

I've always had Froggerman's woodrail minipin project in the back of my head as something I'd like to strive for in the future... too bad the pics to his thread are gone.

Hey mate!  It's nice to have at least a solid day each week to do nothing but project builds. That hasn't been possible in a long time for me, up until recently. This vpin is approximately 31 x 16 x 29 inches (29 is the height).
Now you've got me curios about Froggerman's vpin.. are there any references to look at or similar. Is it based on a real cabinet?

[PL1]

In the mid 90s a pinball game for PC (and other platforms) was released called Pro Pinball The Web. It was DOS based to start with. I remember the game play and realism was really good compared to other PC pinball games at the time.

Thanks for mentioning this game.

Just got the DOS version of it working in MAME on an emulated 486 system.

I can see why you like it.   


Scott

[javeryh]

Froggerman's thread is HERE but the pics are gone. He hasn't been here in almost a decade either.  The cabinet looked like a really old pinball cabinet with wooden legs and a compact size. I can't remember if it was based on an actual cabinet with similar dimensions but it looked a lot like this:



It had similar retro artwork and was a very cool blending of an old time design with modern components.  It also just looked like a lot of fun to play.

[Ond]

Thanks for mentioning this game.

Just got the DOS version of it working in MAME on an emulated 486 system.

I can see why you like it.   


Scott

Hey Scott, great that you got The Web up and running. There's various ways to run the game, Dosbox Mame etc, there are also some Windows exe files you can run with the original files to access it in Windows. That method generally allows the best sound and resolution options. I'm not a gamer but I played the hell out of that game and actually started getting reasonably good at multiple loops and skill shots. It was designed to be played in perspective view on a 4:3 screen Here's a pic of the original playfield for reference for everyone else.

javeryh, I can see the appeal of those lovely old wooden pinball machines. All that timber and great vintage artwork, damn!

I'm going to to try and post my project progress updates in real-time just like the good old days.

Today I worked on the back box, monitor fitting, glass fitting etc. I have no plan to follow, so there's a fair bit of reworking and adjustments. I actually like building that way, it's more relaxing.

I had to re-cut the timber brace that holds the back box monitor in. It was sitting too far forward in the back box. I tore out some crappy MDF internal bracing that I'd done in the back box and replaced with stronger hardwood pieces. I'm figuring out how to secure the glass in the back box and fit the speaker panel. I want really clean simple lines when its all finished. Here's how that ended up today:

There's not enough room in the back box (if I keep the dimensions accurate to a real pinball machine) for placing speakers behind directly behind grills. To get a very convincing speaker grill look I'm using the 3D printed parts and I'm going to make up a panel which sits in front of the monitor. The actual speakers sitting in behind and below the monitor will transmit sound through the available grill apertures just fine. I'll make use of the DMD display on the back glass monitor in a cut-out in the speaker panel.

[Ond]

Built around this alumium frame:

A back box insert which holds the back box glass in place:

[Ond]

Test fitting into the back box of the glass retaining insert and speaker panel. This allows me to exactly position the panel against the back glass image:

After cutting out the DMD window, I've glued the speaker panel and panel edge into its correct position:

I'm getting near to gap and hole patching, surface treatment and priming of the back box. Once that's done I will move on to the main playfield cabinet.

[Ond]

Got to get it smooth:

First primer applied on the back box, one of three - rough coat:

Going to 3D print some raised letters to spell 'The Web'  to go just above the DMD cut-out.

[javeryh]

Looking good. Is that venting on the back or a crazy amount of admin buttons?

[Ond]

Looking good. Is that venting on the back or a crazy amount of admin buttons?

Heh, it does look a bit like some weird button panel but no, your first guess is right. The monitor going in the back box gets gets almost hot with long use. Fan blown air will move up the back of the monitor and vent at those holes to keep it cool. I'll put mesh or something on the inside surface or even inset and flush on the back of the box.

Since I had to work in the store today (it's like a Radio Shack) I put the 3D printer to good use, printing some raised lettering and button inserts for the Vpin:

I have tomorrow to work on personal projects so lets see what I can get done...

[Nephasth]

I'm going to have to get me one of them fancy printers someday...

[thatpurplestuff]

The build is looking great so far (as per typical for an Ond build)!  The speaker grills are an awesome touch! 

[Ond]

I'm going to have to get me one of them fancy printers someday...

You and me both! For now I can print simple stuff at work.

The build is looking great so far (as per typical for an Ond build)!  The speaker grills are an awesome touch! 

I'm hoping the finished result looks better than just a back glass image on it's own. 

I'm still learning how to design for 3D printing, those parts started off in 3D studio MAX:

I convert exported OBJ files online to STL files and then open STLs in Cura for slicing and saving out the gcode file for printing:

I spent part of the day today fixing my compressor after the regulator broke, I went out, bought, and fitted a new one. I spray painted just the back box insert after filling small gaps and imperfections - primer coat 2 of 3! The 3D printed letters will get painted first before gluing them down, but I've positioned them here just to see how they look.

[Zebidee]

Since I had to work in the store today (it's like a Radio Shack) I put the 3D printer to good use,

Ooooo... sounds like you work in Candyland...

[Ond]

Since I had to work in the store today (it's like a Radio Shack) I put the 3D printer to good use,

Ooooo... sounds like you work in Candyland...

Heh, yeah it started out like that. I mean, it's not my main job, but it is fun working where I've been a customer for years. I tell my co-workers I'm there because I need beer money. Some customers are morons, but at least I can buy parts I need at about half price! 

[Ond]

Tomorrow is projects day woohoo!    It's going to get fairly hot .. around 99 degrees, I'll work at it in the morning when its cooler.

I have a question for anyone willing to give it some thought. I want to have pinball nudging as a feature, at least left and right nudge. I don't want to use buttons for this. I have some ideas for how to make this happen but I'm also interested in suggestions. The most important thing is very low lag i.e. pretty much zero lag for the nudge action to register in-game. Mechanical tilt is a feature used in Vpins so why not physical nudge? Forgive me if this is already 'a thing' I'm a Vpin newbie after all.

[Zebidee]

I have a question for anyone willing to give it some thought. I want to have pinball nudging as a feature, at least left and right nudge.

What about the pelvic thrust? Many players swear it works for them. I know it works for me

[Ond]

I have a question for anyone willing to give it some thought. I want to have pinball nudging as a feature, at least left and right nudge.

What about the pelvic thrust? Many players swear it works for them. I know it works for me

If only that were all that's necessary! 

[PL1]

I want to have pinball nudging as a feature, at least left and right nudge. I don't want to use buttons for this. I have some ideas for how to make this happen but I'm also interested in suggestions. The most important thing is very low lag i.e. pretty much zero lag for the nudge action to register in-game. Mechanical tilt is a feature used in Vpins so why not physical nudge?

One trick that I remember reading about is using a pinball tilt plumb bob.
- Connect encoder ground to the top bracket.
- Design and 3d print a nonconductive frame to hold the soon-to-be pieces of the lower bracket ring in their original position.  You may need 2 mounting screws per piece so they don't twist/shift.
- Drill and tap the screw holes in the lower bracket before cutting the lower bracket in 3 pieces for right, left, and up nudge.  Not sure what angles the cuts need to be at for best nudging results. Wire the pieces to the related encoder inputs.




Scott

[Ond]

Thanks Scott. This hadn't occurred to me. It's a clever use of the tilt mechanism. My gut tells me there will still be latency issues though.  This does however give me some great ideas for the actual tilt bob! It's always good to reach out for suggestions I think.

I have an idea for the nudge mechanism but I'll reserve it until I've tested it out.

Three straight crazy hot days ...fark!  Well I 3D printed these fittings for my spidey speaker grills. They turned out ok I think, a bit of a loose fit, I may have to print again for a better match:

[Zebidee]

Ironically, those speaker grill covers will help to keep the spiders out!

[Nephasth]

I have a question for anyone willing to give it some thought. I want to have pinball nudging as a feature, at least left and right nudge. I don't want to use buttons for this. I have some ideas for how to make this happen but I'm also interested in suggestions. The most important thing is very low lag i.e. pretty much zero lag for the nudge action to register in-game. Mechanical tilt is a feature used in Vpins so why not physical nudge? Forgive me if this is already 'a thing' I'm a Vpin newbie after all.

How about a floating lockbar with switches behind the lip of the lockbar for your directional nudging? Left, right, and push front to back.

[Ond]

I have a question for anyone willing to give it some thought. I want to have pinball nudging as a feature, at least left and right nudge. I don't want to use buttons for this. I have some ideas for how to make this happen but I'm also interested in suggestions. The most important thing is very low lag i.e. pretty much zero lag for the nudge action to register in-game. Mechanical tilt is a feature used in Vpins so why not physical nudge? Forgive me if this is already 'a thing' I'm a Vpin newbie after all.

How about a floating lockbar with switches behind the lip of the lockbar for your directional nudging? Left, right, and push front to back.

This...IS GOOD! Damn, I like it. This will be my go to if my own idea doesn't pan out. Thank you Nephasth. 

[Zebidee]

@Nephasth This is a good idea - the best nudges are from the lockbar anyway, so it makes intuitive sense.

How to implement this practically is a harder question. Nudging the lockbar is an art. You probably don't want to feel like you are banging a spring.

Over to the thinktank (Ond).

[Lexiq]

I haven't used one myself, but I've seen these recommended for nudging on Vpins:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003546042061.html

It would probably be possible to use it for tilt detection too.

[Ond]

@Nephasth This is a good idea - the best nudges are from the lockbar anyway, so it makes intuitive sense.

How to implement this practically is a harder question. Nudging the lockbar is an art. You probably don't want to feel like you are banging a spring.

Over to the thinktank (Ond).

Yes, I do like this idea, I think really tiny movements that trigger switches would be the go.  Done properly you wouldn't really feel like the lock bar was 'floating' at all.

I haven't used one myself, but I've seen these recommended for nudging on Vpins:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003546042061.html

It would probably be possible to use it for tilt detection too.

Thanks Lexiq. using an accelerometer to detect nudges is something I've looked into. There's some good documentation for Pinscape build info Here
It is an option I'm considering, but I'm more in favour of very sensitive (and simple) on/off switch setups pending some rigorous testing! 

I have a good idea of my proposed solution in my head and will share in due course. 

[pbj]

I have a question for anyone willing to give it some thought. I want to have pinball nudging as a feature, at least left and right nudge. I don't want to use buttons for this. I have some ideas for how to make this happen but I'm also interested in suggestions. The most important thing is very low lag i.e. pretty much zero lag for the nudge action to register in-game. Mechanical tilt is a feature used in Vpins so why not physical nudge? Forgive me if this is already 'a thing' I'm a Vpin newbie after all.

How about a floating lockbar with switches behind the lip of the lockbar for your directional nudging? Left, right, and push front to back.

 

Do you play pinball with your pinkies or something?

[Zebidee]

Nanoswitches built in behind the lockbar to detect your nudges, whether from pinkie, palm, pelvis or whatever.

I'm not convinced it is practical or satisfactory, even if possible. If anyone can do it, Ond can.

Some kind of motion detection, laser, gyro, level, plum bob etc. to detect actual movement/vibration would likely feel more natural. Not simple, though might ultimately be easier to implement.

Digital gyroscope? Just a quick search, there are some pretty affordable kit options out there. Gyro function done in a chip. Not sure how great they are, but is a start.

https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/gyroscope/all
https://temperosystems.com.au/products/gy-50-l3g4200d-3-axis-gyroscope-angular-velocity-module/

This is a GY-50 L3G4200D 3-Axis Gyroscope Angular Velocity Module low-power three-axis angular rate digital gyroscope sensor. The L3G4200D has a full scale of ±250/±500/±2000 DPS and is capable of measuring rates with a user-selectable bandwidth. These work great in gaming and virtual reality input devices, GPS navigation systems and robotics.

The SMD soldering work is already done, 1 inch square and they cost a few dollars.

[jeremymtc]

Nice suggestion, Zebidee. I used to use GY50 boards for rate control in RC helicopters. They have very fine sensitivity and work great.

[Ond]

Final primer coat on back box insert panel:

Checking the fit of the panel into the back box before painting, looks ok:

First paint coat on the back box insert panel (dark blue):

Painting of 3D printed parts for back box - spiders, spider webs and speaker grill inserts:

After painting is finished on these pieces they'll be assembled into the completed back box.

[javeryh]

Keep it going Ond. I wanna see this thing finished in all it's glory!

[Zebidee]

This build needs a sticky thread   

[Ond]

Keep it going Ond. I wanna see this thing finished in all it's glory!

Thanks for the interest!  Keen fellows like you keep me more motivated. I'm mindful you may be building one of these yourself at some point. 

This build needs a sticky thread   

I'd be happy to have the thread stickied, eventually, but not this early in the project 

More fine detail painting today.  To allow me to spray into various angles on these little parts I mount them up on some sticks. A dab of hot glue is easily removed later:

For this project I'm using various painting methods. The Tamiya model makers spray cans are high quality. I only need a little of each color. Spray quality is not quite as good as my gun, paint comes out a bit too heavy and fast but that's ok.  For really fine details I use my little airbrush:

These 3D printed letters have come up nicely after some sanding with 600-1200 (wet) grit and then painting:

I decided to hand paint some added light blue to these webs to control highlights and color better:

I use a combination of painters masking tape (low adhesion) and air-brushers fine tape (expensive!) to mask off items to be painted. The back box insert panel has been painted with a lighter blue around the speaker holes.  I'm taking my color cues from the original back box artwork:

Peeling away the air-brushers tape, nice clean lines!:

Once the paint that I applied today drys, I can put all the various parts I've been working on together!: