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| LED Animation Editor - question for all the LED-Wiz Devs... |
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| RandyT:
Great article, Youki. Thanks for posting the link. It sums up quite accurately my thoughts on the matter. --- Quote from: headkaze on July 26, 2007, 07:25:38 am ---I would never use the clipboard like that in any program. It is considered an irritation to the user. I think I remember a heated thread about it on here a little while ago so I don't want to go there again. But thats my opinion on the clipboard method you use. --- End quote --- Ok, we all get the idea that programmers neither need, nor like the clipboard method. Of course, none of the critics have been able to offer another method in which anyone, using virtually any program, can control the outputs of the LED-Wiz, or start the playback of an animation. The critics have, however, attempted to do things with it that it wasn't designed for, like brute forcing animations through that interface, only to further criticize it when it has difficulties. Many of my customers have used the clipboard interface and the comments from them relate to how convenient it is for simple control, not that it is "irritating". --- Quote ---Also, when you say you designed the format to make it easy for a VB6 programmer, what makes you think parsing xml is harder? With a library it's actually easier to parse than reading in a file line by line, splitting it up, converting it to integer values, then packing the bits into 8-bit bank numbers then sending them to the ocx or dll. The new format proposed is easier to parse for the beginner not harder. --- End quote --- First of all, one would need to learn how to use the library. There are millions of VB programmers and I'm not operating under the assumption that writing code that deals with XML is all of their "day jobs", or that it should be. Sure, if you deal with it on a regular basis, it's going to be easy for you. I look at assembly and think it is so simple anyone should be able to use it, but if that were the case there would be no high level languages like C and BASIC. It's all about what one is used to. As for packing bits into 8-bit numbers, you'll need to do that anyway in order to use the hardware, so it's not part of the issue at hand. And anything you get back from the XML schema you showed will need to be equally massaged for the hardware...essentially into the current format! --- Quote ---I think programmers get in these mind sets about old formats and don't like changing to the new ones. They are the new format because they are better. All this drama about speed, filesize and all that dosn't really carry water with me. And it's not change for the sake of change. --- End quote --- And likewise, new programmers get wrapped up in "what they know, or simply theorize to be improvements" and tend to ignore the basic fundamentals which dictate selecting the right tool for the job. If it doesn't bring new capability to the table, it's simply re-packaging based on preference and that is "change for the sake of change". --- Quote ---If Randy had a decent animation editor to offer with the LEDWiz there would be no discussion about the format of lwa files. Or if he (God forbid) paid a programmer like arzoo to write the software. But there is no editor, so since arzoo is the pioneer of that we might as well design a new format. From memory Randy's animation editor was incomplete and doesn't read back lwa files? --- End quote --- Veiled insults aside, there is an editor, and while it does have it's problems, it allows one to easily create optimized animations. It was used to create the very first animation ever witnessed by anyone when the hardware was still in testing phases, and has been used by virtually everyone since, until I think MikeQ and youki made theirs as part of their respective frontends (PowerMAME and AtomicFE.) However, if you choose to believe that this is the first time an editor has been written and that bestows some special consideration, then that's up to you. I've already stated that the best approach should be for each individual to do what makes the most sense for their applications and look at the plugin / Import / Export / Conversion utility examples. I plan to add just such functionality to my editor so that I, or any third party, can make a plug-in to allow simple exporting to anything they like. I'm not sure what more you would like me to do. But I can't do something I don't feel is in the best interests of the device simply because you want it to be that way. --- Quote ---I would like to know if anyone is using the software Randy offers on the GGG site? Or do people use the LEDWiz SDK MikeQ and I developed? That contains example source in 5 languages including VB6. --- End quote --- You can ask that question here, but you will not get an accurate picture of the needs of all users. The LED-Wiz is an output controller with enhanced PWM capabilities and pulse effects for lighting. Many of the people who find the current features useful don't come to this site, let alone this forum. --- Quote ---I missed Randy's paragraph about changing to using Window captions. That is a much better way to do it. --- End quote --- And I agree. I was quite impressed at the speed and low overhead of using this method. It didn't appear to have difficulties even when used to play very fast animations. Something the clipboard method was neither designed for, nor truly capable of (which is why there is an animation playback command with looping capabilities as part of the "official" LED-Wiz routines.) And that's why I will be offering it as an option. RandyT |
| youki:
Another interresting Article about XML http://www.xml.com/lpt/a/860 One line , i extracted from this article , that summarize well what i think Don't turn off your critical faculties because something's a "standard" it is exactly what seems to be happened to you Headkaze (lost of critical faculties) , when you write sentence like : --- Quote ---I think programmers get in these mind sets about old formats and don't like changing to the new ones. They are the new format because they are better --- End quote --- "New" does not mean "Better" (i know my english is not so good... but.. ) ;) |
| headkaze:
I'm not going to bother bantering on with Randy about this anymore. It will end up turning into a flame war. If you actually read that artice (which is clearly an opinion piece) he is a big fan of xml. He just states that there are circumstances where xml dosn't suit. One example was a 1000 gig file. Most of them hardly apply here. It's mainly the flexibility and scalability of the format I like. Arzoo can add more complex animation features to the format without it breaking parsers or making it even more unreadable than the current format is. That is my final word on the xml subject, I'm not going to debate it anymore. Finally I believe Arzoo has already made up his mind on the better format, as I have. I know that me and Loadman will support him on that. That covers Mala and GameEx. Youki already has his own editor and his own format, that covers AtomicFE. Others like MameWah can use the LEDWizLighter command line util and LEDWizGen programs that me and Swindus developed. Finally I think it's a good idea to create a universal LED animation format. Afterall Ultimarc is coming out with a new device which I will be adding to my plugin soon. Mala already supports it. Who's to say Andy won't be releasing an RGB LED controller some time soon? We should have a format that will support all devices that come out in the future, not just the LEDWiz. |
| RandyT:
--- Quote from: headkaze on July 27, 2007, 02:06:34 pm ---I'm not going to bother bantering on with Randy about this anymore. It will end up turning into a flame war. If you actually read that artice (which is clearly an opinion piece) he is a big fan of xml. He just states that there are circumstances where xml dosn't suit. One example was a 1000 gig file. Most of them hardly apply here. --- End quote --- Of course, there are several items mentioned in that same article, making the case for not using XML, that do apply here. I can list them if you would like. --- Quote ---Afterall Ultimarc is coming out with a new device which I will be adding to my plugin soon. Mala already supports it. Who's to say Andy won't be releasing an RGB LED controller some time soon? We should have a format that will support all devices that come out in the future, not just the LEDWiz. --- End quote --- If this is what was motivating your viewpoints, It probably would have been beneficial to the participants in the discussion if you had stated it somewhere before now (like your first post in the thread.) It's difficult for other individuals to respond properly, or decide whether it was appropriate to respond at all, when "all the cards aren't on the table" and the topic of discussion appeared to be related to something else. RandyT |
| headkaze:
--- Quote from: RandyT on July 27, 2007, 03:37:01 pm ---Of course, there are several items mentioned in that same article, making the case for not using XML, that do apply here. I can list them if you would like. --- End quote --- I did read the article and I already said I don't want to keep this argument about xml ongoing. Just the simple introduction of a looping part for animations is enough to change the format IMHO. Or we could keep tacking on new things to the existing format like line numbers and a new GOTO command (and thus breaking every parser written already now anyway). --- Quote from: RandyT on July 27, 2007, 03:37:01 pm ---If this is what was motivating your viewpoints, It probably would have been beneficial to the participants in the discussion if you had stated it somewhere before now (like your first post in the thread.) It's difficult for other individuals to respond properly, or decide whether it was appropriate to respond at all, when "all the cards aren't on the table" and the topic of discussion appeared to be related to something else. --- End quote --- This is my hobby and I don't think that way. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you don't have the same passion as I do, it's apparent you do. I just enjoy programming for this hobby so my interests lie in that. The format has made serveral changes over the course of the thread, and I never had the idea of making it universal until the last post I made. It's just another idea I'm throwing into the mix, I don't have the last word on anything in here. These are my thoughts as they come to me, I am not giving you my "poker face" and introducing ideas I've already thought about. I really like your hardware and forked out a decent amount of money for my LEDWiz kit. I'm very happy with it, so don't think for one second I don't appreciate what you do for this hobby. Is that a "thiny vieled" thankyou? I hope not! Just incase "thankyou"! :) Again, if were not careful this will become a flame thread. Lets try and keep to the topic and not get personal about ideas. These are just ideas and opinions afterall. One last note to end this rant. I have no loyalty to a hardware manufacturer in this hobby, I support them all. Afterall wasn't it you who said in an e-mail to me that "competition is good for the scene"? ;D |
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