Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards

[Twin-X]

They are full screen if you have a resolution in windows that is 320x224 You probably have something bigger. 320x240 i think so there is a gap of 16 pixels. These pixels are the borders!

So neo geo has black borders on the sides. SF has borders on top and bottom.

[Martijn]

i have set in mame.ini switch_res to 1
then it should switch to the correct reolutions does it not?

[Haggar]

You simply cannot get a perfect picture for running so many diffrent games, period.
Accept the borders or use stretching and get an ugly picture. You make that choice.

What you want is simply not possible.

With an ArcadeVGA and also with the great AdvanceMame, I was able to have no lateral borders (only top/bottom) with all resolutions (neogeo also).

[Twin-X]

You simply cannot get a perfect picture for running so many diffrent games, period.
Accept the borders or use stretching and get an ugly picture. You make that choice.

What you want is simply not possible.

With an ArcadeVGA and also with the great AdvanceMame, I was able to have no lateral borders (only top/bottom) with all resolutions (neogeo also).

I also have an arcade vga. I got borders on some games. As said it depends on the resolution you choose. I never used advancemame (too old unfortunatly for me)

However i have the feeling this discussion is becomming an endeless thread so i stop now.

i have set in mame.ini switch_res to 1
then it should switch to the correct reolutions does it not?

No it switches to the closest resolution mame thinks is good for the game. (this is not always the best choice) A custom game.ini can solve this for those game you wich to change.

[Silver]

ATI Radeon X600-X800 or a NVidia GeForce 7600GT-7950GT.

Newer Radeons have a higher pixelclock limit (7.12mhz) and newer GeForce don't seem to support resolutions below 512x384.

Good to know. Is anything newer than a x800 have the higher limit.

Also, do you know what exactly the pixelclock limit is for the older (e.g. X800) actually is?

SailorSat did you see this query? also curious to know how you found the 7.12mhz limit...

[Martijn]

i got my gigabyte GV-RX80L256V back 

Powered by ATI RadeonTM X800XL VPU

this card is possible to handle all the resolutions native even with borders. Right?? 



i will try it 

[SailorSat]

i tried it on my radeon 3870 with the things removed

neogeo had borders and so has sf2 now

why is there no wiki on this  doesnt eveyone have this problem who uses soft15khz and rgb scart vga?

ill swap the videocard tonight with a x800 and try again

I'll explain step by step what happens.

1. There is the "Front-End" Resolution, in our case let it be 321x240.
Software chooses from those resolutions and picks the one that suits it the best.
In Case of MAME and Neo-Geo, it will fit the 320x224 image by leaving 1 pixel on the right "blank", so it does with 8 pixel at the top and 8 at the bottom.


2. There is the "Back-End" Resolution.
This is where the problem starts.
An image on the screen has basically 4 "zones".
The first is pretty simple, the so called "active" video, where the picture is shown.
Then there is the "front porch" area, which is usually black (or blue on a commodore 64) which is used as compensation for the so called "overscan" on monitors, as screens dont have "plain" edges.
Follong this "Front Porch" is the so called "Scan" Zone, in which the CRTs beam will be set to be next line.
Last there is the "Back Porch", which is pretty much the same as the front porch, except is lies BEFORE the actual image.


Even though the Porches and the Scan don't produce any image (like said, usually black), they get "clocked" in pixels.
So just lets say with all porches and stuff, your 321x240 image actually is more like 384x256 "pixels", which sum up to 98304 pixels.

As the image gets drawn 60 times per second, the card has to produces 5898240 pixels.
The timer for this is called the "pixelclock".

5898240 Hz = 5898,24 kHz = 5,89824 MHz

The problem is, that newer ATI cards can't be clocked below 7,12 MHz, so I have to fill in "pixels" somewhere.
As I can't add more "active" pixels, I have to increase the porches and the Sync (actually these have to stay in some kind of relationship to each other).

Thats why you can't get "perfect" modes with newer cards.

You X800 is perfectly able to clock down way below 4 MHz.

SailorSat did you see this query? also curious to know how you found the 7.12mhz limit...

Actually I didn't see it.
Well I simply tried out, clocking the resolutions down until it didn't display anymore.
I don't know the limit on the older cards, but it seems to be way below 4 MHz, (240*240).

[Haggar]

Great explanation SailorSat! So, if I've understood, the problems involves side black borders (left/right).

One question: I've found an ati x850xt that I can buy used. Will it work as the x800?

[SailorSat]

One question: I've found an ati x850xt that I can buy used. Will it work as the x800?

My skills in fortune telling aren't that good, sry

[Twin-X]

One question: I've found an ati x850xt that I can buy used. Will it work as the x800?

My skills in fortune telling aren't that good, sry

Really? And what if i buy you a glass sphere

[Martijn]

installed th x800 xl and installed soft15khz (only 15khz option)

ran mamepp.exe with switchres_1 and crop_artwork 0 and triplebuffering d3d and hardwarestretching 1

then started samurai showdown 1 and the screen blanked on me 

wasnt the x800 able to run al the resolutions?

streetfighter 2 had 25% black borders on both sided..

[Haggar]

Try using ddraw instead of d3d and disable hardware stretching.

[northerngames]

I also use the same settings as the arcadevga use's to the T and I also us the avgain tool I think it is called so it does the res's for you.

SF2



pics due no justice though but it is a full screen on mine

 it's the sapphire version there the only one's that made the ddr3 512MB version its also a power hog that requires two molex plugs to power and most low end psu are not going to get it for these watts mean nothing it is all about the sustained amp output so I went with a corsair VX-550 to power its hunger.

[Martijn]

this is what happens with sf2

Parsing mame.ini
Parsing mame.ini
Video: Monitor 00010001 = "\\.\DISPLAY1" (primary)
Direct3D: Using Direct3D 9
Direct3D: Configuring adapter #0 = GIGABYTE RADEON X800 XL
Direct3D: Selecting video mode...
   288x 240@ 60Hz -> 719.424486
   296x 240@ 60Hz -> 719.424486
   304x 240@ 60Hz -> 719.424486
   320x 240@ 60Hz -> 719.424486
   336x 240@ 60Hz -> 719.424486
   352x 256@ 60Hz -> 719.424486
   352x 264@ 60Hz -> 719.424486
   352x 288@ 60Hz -> 719.424486
   368x 240@ 60Hz -> 719.424486
   384x 288@ 60Hz -> 734.809102
   392x 240@ 60Hz -> 759.424485
   400x 300@ 60Hz -> 730.177174
   448x 240@ 60Hz -> 731.770165
   512x 240@ 60Hz -> 726.321038
   512x 288@ 60Hz -> 724.605833
   512x 384@ 60Hz -> 722.884694
   512x 448@ 60Hz -> 722.257347
   512x 512@ 60Hz -> 721.822568
   632x 264@ 60Hz -> 722.884694
   640x 240@ 60Hz -> 723.087490
   640x 288@ 60Hz -> 722.539751
   640x 480@ 60Hz -> 721.373804
   720x 480@ 60Hz -> 721.110827
   720x 576@ 60Hz -> 720.875865
   800x 600@ 60Hz -> 720.685520
   848x 480@ 60Hz -> 720.811449
  1024x 480@ 60Hz -> 720.539313
  1024x 768@ 60Hz -> 720.268368
  1280x 720@ 50Hz -> 10.142946
Direct3D: Mode selected =  392x 240@ 60Hz
Direct3D: Using dynamic textures
Direct3D: YUV format = UYVY
Direct3D: Device created at 392x240
Direct3D: Max texture size = 2048x2048

[SailorSat]

You will have to remove the custom15khz.txt with the X800.

*EDIT* Wait... What Catalyst are you using? It seems it's way to new (320x240 and others should NOT be there)

Give Catalyst 6.5 a try -> http://ati.amd.com/support/drivers/xp/previous/radeon/radeonxip-cat65-xp.html

[Martijn]

ok, ill try 6.5

ddraw with hardware stretching off was also better

sf2 is supposed to be 384 x 224 pixels

and it ran in 388 x 228 pixels

MAME Native Vs Scaled Resolution is just bothering me..

another problem is that in 640x288 i can control everything in the service menu to get the screen right

but when it flips to 320x240 for example then i cant control it and it has a border only on the left side, its a non gfx border

[SailorSat]

SF2 should run in 392x240 rather than 384x288

[Martijn]

lol, why does it choose that one then?

do you have a perfect costum15khz.txt for my card tv combi and mame.ini settings?

or what do you recommend

getting tired of this 

[SailorSat]

You don't need a custom15khz.txt with the X800.

As for SF2... You may want to use the AVRES tool.

[Martijn]

ah, never used that before

also some nice info on http://www.ultimarc.com/avgainst.html

ill try it this weekend !

[northerngames]

 I used the avres tool from that link above not the avgain tool like I was thinking/posting prior.

 I'm also using mamefx not just stock mame so all volume levels are balanced out instead of one game whispering and then another screaming loud and having to play with the volume knob for each game.

the mamefx type avoids all that and balance's the sounds out to be the same level without playing with the volume knob all the time.

sf2 was 384 x 224 in that pic

[Haggar]

Northern, when you change between resolutions have you to adjust the image with monitor pots, or are all res centered and horizontally stretched?

PS: Mamefx has also the great "sync audio with video" option, borrowed from SailorSat's CabMame.

[Martijn]

SF2 should run in 392x240 rather than 384x288

perfect !! its great now , why does AVRES tool set it to 384x288?

do you also have the perfect neogeo resolution?

it keeps wanting to go to 321x something that my tv or card cant handle

isnt the x800 supposed to support 321x?

[SailorSat]

Like I said, Catalyst 6.5.
The newer ones don't work well.

[SirPeale]

Any hopes of putting in Intel video drivers?  I've got a PC with onboard video that has an awesome form factor.  I can almost get it working with PowerStrip, but my lack of know-how has me floundering.

[northerngames]

Northern, when you change between resolutions have you to adjust the image with monitor pots, or are all res centered and horizontally stretched?

PS: Mamefx has also the great "sync audio with video" option, borrowed from SailorSat's CabMame.

I dont have to adjust the monitor after I got it in a sweet spot I have not toached them and no adjustments are needed.

97% display fine and in screen but there are a few that are stretched off the screen a little but there mostly old old one's anyhow.

the way I was looking at it is I had a choice I could have all the perfect res's and no up to date pc games or suffer a few old one's but be able to play most any up to date pc game I can throw at it except one's that run a minumum of 1024X768.

I originally got the card for resident evil 4 and company of heroes and the call of duty's playing them on the cab was cool and with the trackball on some it made it even funner.

I just installed John woo's stranglehold but I am going to use the MS wireless controller &  wireless gaming reciever instead of the CP controls.

another cool thing with that gaming reciever is you can use the wireless 360 racing wheel and pedal for the pc and mame racing games and when done there is no farting with disconnecting wire or opening the cab.

I have a usb extension cable from the pc mounted into the bottom of my cp so I just plug anything usb right to the bottom of my cp push the sync buttom and it's go to go.

[Ummon]

why is there no wiki on this  doesnt eveyone have this problem who uses soft15khz and rgb scart vga?

You're free to add an entry in it for this.

[Martijn]

SF2 should run in 392x240 rather than 384x288

got the 800 xl and soft15khz and 6.5 catalyst running now, all resolutions work, althoug many have strange tv borders on the left side.

street fighter and many games select the default for 384 x 2288 in the ini files.

this resolution is wide perfect, no border and visible screen from left to right, but big border up and down

i changed it to 384 x 288

then its full screen but a strange big border only on the left side, its like i need to change the h-width in the tv service menu, but for some strange reason i can only change in the service menu when i am in 640x288, anything below and i cant edit any service mode settings. When i am in 640x288 or 640x480 or higher the screen is perfectly filled so i dont need to edit anything in the service menu

any thoughts on that

[SailorSat]

Hm... yeah, sounds like your TV has a "not so good" H-Phase set as default :/

But well, thats the downside of using a TV.

[Martijn]

can i move or do something with powerstip or catalist control center screen alignment for moving the screen?

does a "normal" tv support geometric for every different resolution? or is it just for default alignment for all settings

[SailorSat]

Well, there is no such thing as "default", thats the problem.
Most (if not all TVs) are configured for NTSC (480i) and PAL (576i), with the default Overscan.

[MarcC]

I have a slight problem!

I install your program, and restart, I keep it on monitor just to check and see if anything comes up and it doesnt it says "out of range"

So I plug in the scart to the TV and I get a screen, but when I resart my PC on the tv it does not work on the TV only the monitor.

The weird thing is when I change over to 15khz on the monitor and restart without unpluging the monitor vga cable it still does not come up on the monitor as if it is staying at 15khz,

But when I get a picture on the tv and try a reboot while still connected to the TV it never comes back on the TV screen atall and seems to work on the monitor if I plug it back into that,

I know this sounds like it is not possible , but I miust be missing something simple surley

Can anyone help me out with this please ?

Im runing a 7300GS and I have played various roms on my TV with no problem, it just seems to not work after a reboot at all ??

Thanks

[MarcC]

I just ran soft15khz restarts the PC connected to the monitor, No picture, I restarted again the same thing.

I repeated this 10 times, every time I get no picture on my monitor, So it must be in 15khz?

I power down PC connect VGA to TV, turn system on no picture at all, If I take out the VGA to SCART and plug in the Monitor VGA cable the picture comes up on the monitor.....

This is driving me insane.....

The only way I get a picture on my TV is when I load up the PC and I get no picture, then I have to disconnect the VGA to monitor and plug in VGA to SCART, thats the only time I get a picture on the TV.....

[northerngames]

desktop set for 640X480?

[MarcC]

Yes desktop is at 640 x 480

[SailorSat]

Puh... It looks like your card doesn't sense your TV as "pluged in" and therefore deactivates the VGA port.

[MarcC]

I got it too wrok!!

I just used an older version of the drivers and it worked first time!

But now I have another slight problem, I adjust the picture so that I can see the start menu etc, but when I reboot it goes back to the original position ?

Does anyone have any ideas what to do with this ?

Thanks

[SailorSat]

Where/How did you adjust the position?

[Zebidee]

When I first read your post, I worried that one of the monitor ID cables might have been connected to ground - this can sometimes cause a PC to disable VGA head output.  This happenned to me with one of my cabs, until I fixed the cable by cutting the monitor ID wires.  However, I made your cable myself and know that no monitor ID wires are attached! 

So I am doubly glad that you found the problem with your video drivers instead!

On moving/centering the picture, you may have limited options.  You could mine this thread for info on how to adjust picture positions by editing modelines, or you could find how to access the service mode of your TV - which *might* allow you to make some adjustments. 

Entering service mode usually requires a remote & knowledge of special codes, usually found in the tech service manual.  What TV do you have, what is the model no.?

This is driving me insane.....

The only way I get a picture on my TV is when I load up the PC and I get no picture, then I have to disconnect the VGA to monitor and plug in VGA to SCART, thats the only time I get a picture on the TV.....

[bent98]

I have issues like that with my Arcade Monitor. What happends is since my Arcade Monitor isnt plug and play it wants to set my desktop at 800x600@75hz. My monitor old does 60hz.

Your refresh rate could be the problem. I get it to work by going into safe mode and manually setting refresh of monitor or pluging and un pluging my vga cable a few times. I get my monitor to sync with OS and then I set refresh Manually to 60hz