Author Topic: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards (Read 771107 times)

Ummon · « **Reply #520 on:** April 10, 2008, 09:33:37 pm »

Quote from: ahofle on April 10, 2008, 09:17:42 pm

Are you saying you are running Soft15khz on an LCD? Can you be more specific about your issue? What specific resolution is showing grey? You do realize that you can't display 15khz resolutions on an LCD right?

This, and it'll help if he reads the soft15 literature thoroughly. I did try out an Intel integrated board set, but it was kitschy, and besides it only offers five modes. So, spuds, yes. Get a card.

Zebidee · « **Reply #521 on:** April 10, 2008, 10:00:11 pm »

Quote from: SailorSat on April 10, 2008, 11:10:11 am

Holy crap... Just got my "X600", which turned out to be something that doesn't exist

This card can go down to about 4MHz pixelclock which is fine for 240x240 (and lower) resolutions, however it does not show 321x240, 321x256 and 401x256 pixel resolutions in the list... Also it shows 320x240, 400x300, 1024x480 (and various others) resolutions which will be output in 31+ kHz.

As for now I can't get them "removed" from the list.
Well... Lets see what the weekend offers

I wish you lots of luck with this quest, and not just because I love your work - I'm using an ASUS A9550 (ATI chipset) and missing the same resolutions .... which is upsetting, because my frontend layouts are all designed for 321x240. On another thread I notice that ahofle is also having similar problems with his 9600XT.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=66366.new;topicseen#new

nobbo · « **Reply #522 on:** April 10, 2008, 11:38:39 pm »

i have an ATI Radeon 9250 128MB lying around, so i thought i would try this out with that, i installed the card, installed the Catalyst 6.1 drivers, which are said to work fine with this model on the other forum, ran Soft-15khz, clicked the Install 15Khz button and restarted the PC. After windows had booted, the signal on my VGA went out of range for it, which I expected, but when I plugged in my arcade monitor all I had was a bunch of flickering lines and not much else.

Now, without fiddling with the monitor settings, I uninstalled this card and all the drivers, and reinstalled my ArcadeVGA (which is the model before the current ones - Radeon 7000 i think), hooked up my arcade monitor again, and the picture comes out great.

My question is:
Am I installing Soft-15khz right or am I missing something completely, and if this is all good, would it be possible that a card with Soft15 would require different hold etc settings on the actual monitor, than those that are good with an AVGA??

Zebidee · « **Reply #523 on:** April 11, 2008, 02:09:17 am »

Quote from: nobbo on April 10, 2008, 11:38:39 pm

..... ran Soft-15khz, clicked the Install 15Khz button and restarted the PC. After windows had booted, the signal on my VGA went out of range for it, which I expected, but when I plugged in my arcade monitor all I had was a bunch of flickering lines and not much else.

After installing Soft15khz, Did you try changing your desktop resolution to 640x480 before rebooting? If your default desktop res is something like 1024x768, you'll get the problems you described.

If this happens , connect the PC to a VGA monitor and boot into safe mode. Make sure you have 640x480 selected. Then reboot normally.

nobbo · « **Reply #524 on:** April 11, 2008, 03:43:42 am »

i did make sure that i had selected 640X480 before i rebooted, i might give the card another shot and see if it keeps happening

spuds · « **Reply #525 on:** April 11, 2008, 07:54:22 am »

Quote from: ahofle on April 10, 2008, 09:17:42 pm

Are you saying you are running Soft15khz on an LCD? Can you be more specific about your issue? What specific resolution is showing grey? You do realize that you can't display 15khz resolutions on an LCD right?

it is hooked up to an LCD now - BUT, I will be connecting it to the arcade cab which will be its permanent home - what I was/am trying to do is get everything installed on this PC BEFORE I attempt to connect it to the cab.
When I installed soft15 - it shows no choices highlighted nor will it allow me to select anything - so what I am understanding from you folks is that it is not compatible with the onboard video card, true?

So if I go an buy a video card, and install it , THEN will I be able to tell if everything is right with my setup by viewing it on the LCD BEFORE I do the install to the cab??

Also can you guys reccomend me a cheap video card that will work with this program and my PC ??

THANKS for your help guys !! as you can tell I am not well versed on this whole process and read as I might it I still cannot get it in my head

Zebidee · « **Reply #526 on:** April 11, 2008, 08:13:19 am »

Quote from: spuds on April 11, 2008, 07:54:22 am

When I installed soft15 - it shows no choices highlighted nor will it allow me to select anything - so what I am understanding from you folks is that it is not compatible with the onboard video card, true?

Soft15khz is almost certainly not compatible with onboard video.

Quote from: spuds on April 11, 2008, 07:54:22 am

So if I go an buy a video card, and install it , THEN will I be able to tell if everything is right with my setup by viewing it on the LCD BEFORE I do the install to the cab??

Sure. Connect to the LCD and install the basic video card drivers. But note that you won't be able to get anything on your LCD after you have installed Soft15khz and rebooted (and you won't get anything until Windows actually loads up). This is the time when you need to attach the PC to your arcade monitor.

Quote from: spuds on April 11, 2008, 07:54:22 am

Also can you guys reccomend me a cheap video card that will work with this program and my PC ??

There is an ever-growing list of compatible video cards on another forum. There is a link near the beginning of this thread. Personally, I like the ATI Radeon 9250 cards (or anything using that chipset) because they seem to work without any problems. But don't install the Catalyst Control panel software thingy - it isn't necessary, and might even cause some problems. Just install the ATI 9250 driver itself.

spuds · « **Reply #527 on:** April 11, 2008, 07:54:01 pm »

ok thanks
I went to the dell site and fro my PC they show several compatible cards
geforce fx5200
geforce 4mx

would your raedeon 9250's work do you think?

northerngames · « **Reply #528 on:** April 12, 2008, 01:15:47 pm »

Quote from: spuds on April 11, 2008, 07:54:01 pm

ok thanks
I went to the dell site and fro my PC they show several compatible cards
geforce fx5200
geforce 4mx

would your raedeon 9250's work do you think?

make sure your psu can handle whatever card you choose otherwise you may also need a larger psu if you dont look into that before hand.

Zebidee · « **Reply #529 on:** April 12, 2008, 02:00:40 pm »

I've actually used AVGA2 AGP cards, which have the 9250 chipset, with Dell GX270N "Optiplex" PC's previously. These are like their smaller cousins, but have tower cases. Smaller Dell's are more common, and you may need a smaller profile card.

Having said that, I've hacked an old low-profile Compaq PC (P4 2.0 GHz, ex-office desktop) to accept a larger ATI 9550 card - I just have to leave the case cover off to accommodate the extra height. Makes for a very cheap but reliable arcade/media player solution.

ahofle · « **Reply #530 on:** April 12, 2008, 06:12:04 pm »

Quote from: SailorSat on April 10, 2008, 11:10:11 am

Whatever...
This card can go down to about 4MHz pixelclock which is fine for 240x240 (and lower) resolutions, however it does not show 321x240, 321x256 and 401x256 pixel resolutions in the list... Also it shows 320x240, 400x300, 1024x480 (and various others) resolutions which will be output in 31+ kHz.

As for now I can't get them "removed" from the list.
Well... Lets see what the weekend offers

Well I just got my Radeon 9800 Pro installed (same exact model listed on the Soft15khz board as 'compatible') and it has the same line doubled resolutions listed (320x200, 320x240, and 400x300).

I guess that was a waste of money LOL. I sure hope you figure out how to remove those.

SailorSat · « **Reply #531 on:** April 12, 2008, 08:46:56 pm »

May be a driver issue

For the time being...
http://ati.amd.com/support/drivers/xp/radeonxprevious-xp.html
maybe an older driver will work.

Ummon · « **Reply #532 on:** April 16, 2008, 02:57:51 pm »

In looking over PC2JAMMA for a project, I read the following and remembered when everybody was skeptical Soft15 would work by simply 're-writing the registers':

Quote

The front end (ArcadeOS.EXE) also allows other emulators without a -NTSC option to be connected directly to an arcade monitor.

It does this by reprogramming the VGA timing registers to match a standard res arcade monitor.

http://www.mameworld.net/pc2jamma/pc_arc3.html

SailorSat · « **Reply #533 on:** April 17, 2008, 01:00:34 am »

As for my X600 card (it IS an unknown [OEM?] ASUS card) I've managed to get it working with the 321px width resolutions.

I've fooled around the whole weekend and lastly tried some older drivers.
Actually I've installed Catalyst 6.5 and the card works like charm, however I couldn't get it working with Catalyst 7.12.

I think I'll start a driver archive, as it is pretty hard to get older drivers from the ATI site.

As for everyone using X600 or older cards, with the "320x240" problem, try:
http://ati.amd.com/support/drivers/xp/previous/radeon/radeonxip-cat65-xp.html

SailorSat · « **Reply #534 on:** April 17, 2008, 01:38:11 am »

ahofle · « **Reply #535 on:** April 17, 2008, 10:34:52 am »

Sweet!!! I will give that a shot tonight and report back. ATI's website only went down to catalyst 7.4 that I saw. Thanks for the research.

ahofle · « **Reply #536 on:** April 17, 2008, 06:14:42 pm »

SUCCESS!! I have all the resolutions now with Catalyst 6.5, thanks!

One question about 321x240 resolution, mine shows up as 59 Hz refresh rate on the monitor OSD instead of 60 (so I get lots of screen tearing). Is that normal? Some of my 256 line resolutions actually show up running at 60 Hz!

SailorSat · « **Reply #537 on:** April 17, 2008, 06:25:15 pm »

321x240 should be something like 59.4 Hz

some of the 256 line modes are "extended resolution" (16kHz) which is handled by most standard resolution monitors.

use tripplebuffer or vsync to get rid of tearing

ahofle · « **Reply #538 on:** April 17, 2008, 07:57:48 pm »

Quote from: ahofle on April 17, 2008, 06:14:42 pm

SUCCESS!! I have all the resolutions now with Catalyst 6.5, thanks!

Actually I spoke to soon. Now my 512x384 is gone!

Any ideas? Is this something I should try and manually add in usermodes.txt? Anyone happen to have a modeline?

SailorSat · « **Reply #539 on:** April 18, 2008, 01:01:55 am »

Mhm... Maybe it doesn't like the blacklist entry. *sigh*

add to custom25khz.txt:
modeline '513x384@59,959' 14,75 513 520 568 600 384 388 391 410 -hsync -vsync

ahofle · « **Reply #540 on:** April 18, 2008, 01:29:49 am »

Thanks, getting closer. It does appears in the list on reboot, but when I start a 512x384 game the screen appears scrambled. Does that mean the modeline is slightly off?

SailorSat · « **Reply #541 on:** April 18, 2008, 02:02:41 am »

Hm... You should check it with QuickRes.
Currently I don't have a MedRes capable monitor ready to test, but it should work.

BASS! · « **Reply #542 on:** April 18, 2008, 04:02:12 am »

Hello there!
Allrighty, I just went through every resolution I have so far, and I was wondering if you could look this over to see what is my limitation of my setup / hardware. Some resolutions will display allright, some will display zoomed, some display shifted, some garbled completely and some show up in four different sections.

I have a sony pvm-2530 (its native vga res is 640x200 which I set up but does not diplay the full screen. I am also running a nvidia geforce 6600 pcie x16.

240x240 - scrambled
256x240 - good
256x256 - scrambled
256x264 - good but geometry issues (zoomed)
288x240 - screen quadrupled
296x240 - screen quadrupled
304x240 - good
321x240 - good
321x256 - scrambled
336x240 - good
352x256 - scrambled
352x264 - scrambled
352x288 - good but geometry issues (zoomed)
368x240 - good
384x288 - good but geometry issues (zoomed)
392x240 - good
401x256 - good but geometry issues (zoomed)
488x240 - good
512x240 - screen shifted but good
512x288 - good but geometry issues (zoomed)
512x448 - good but geometry issues (shifted)
632x264 - good but geometry issues (zoomed)
640x240 - good
640x288 - good but geometry issues (zoomed)
640x480 - good but screen flicker
720x480 - good but screen flicker
800x600 - good but geometry issues (zoomed)

I do know how to tweak my geometry on this tv, so what should I set it to to make my adjustments, and what do you recomend to replace my resolutions too. I am working on getting rid of the ones that will not display at all. I am happy with only being able to run a couple reses for my games.

1 . oldschool games
2. vector games
3. neogeo / misc mid 80s games
4. newer games / dreamcast

SailorSat · « **Reply #543 on:** April 18, 2008, 06:05:51 am »

hm...
as for the scrambled ones...
well can't help you without having the card in my hands.

as for the geometry problems, yeah, 264 and 288 line modes have other sync widths as 240 line modes, so resize horizontal width and vertical width a bit.

as for the 480 line modes... sure the flicker, they are interlaced

Create a Custom15khz.txt and add several remove X,Y lines, for example "remove 240,240" to remove 240x240.

SailorSat · « **Reply #544 on:** April 18, 2008, 07:38:39 am »

Quote from: uprightbass360 on April 18, 2008, 04:02:12 am

Hello there!
Allrighty, I just went through every resolution I have so far, and I was wondering if you could look this over to see what is my limitation of my setup / hardware. Some resolutions will display allright, some will display zoomed, some display shifted, some garbled completely and some show up in four different sections.

just generated some new "default" modes, give it a try

custom15khz.txt

Code: [Select]

modeline "240x240@60p;15,72kHz" 5.0304 240 256 288 320 240 244 254 262 -hsync -vsync
modeline "256x240@60p;15,72kHz" 5.40768 256 272 312 344 240 244 254 262 -hsync -vsync
modeline "288x240@60p;15,72kHz" 6.03648 288 304 352 384 240 244 254 262 -hsync -vsync
modeline "296x240@60p;15,72kHz" 6.16224 296 312 360 392 240 244 254 262 -hsync -vsync
modeline "320x240@60p;15,72kHz" 6.66528 320 336 392 424 240 244 254 262 -hsync -vsync
modeline "336x240@60p;15,72kHz" 7.04256 336 352 416 448 240 244 254 262 -hsync -vsync
modeline "368x240@60p;15,72kHz" 7.67136 368 400 424 488 240 244 254 262 -hsync -vsync
modeline "392x240@60p;15,72kHz" 8.1744 392 424 456 520 240 244 254 262 -hsync -vsync
modeline "448x240@60p;15,72kHz" 9.432 448 480 536 600 240 244 254 262 -hsync -vsync
modeline "512x240@60p;15,72kHz" 10.6896 512 544 616 680 240 244 254 262 -hsync -vsync
modeline "640x240@60p;15,72kHz" 13.45632 640 688 760 856 240 244 254 262 -hsync -vsync

modeline "256x256@60p;16,08kHz" 5.53152 256 272 312 344 256 258 264 268 -hsync -vsync
modeline "320x256@60p;16,08kHz" 6.81792 320 336 392 424 256 258 264 268 -hsync -vsync
modeline "352x256@60p;16,08kHz" 7.58976 352 384 408 472 256 258 264 268 -hsync -vsync

modeline "256x264@58p;15,776kHz" 5.426944 256 272 312 344 264 265 270 272 -hsync -vsync
modeline "352x264@57p;15,789kHz" 7.452408 352 384 408 472 264 266 273 277 -hsync -vsync
modeline "632x264@57p;15,789kHz" 13.26276 632 680 744 840 264 266 273 277 -hsync -vsync

modeline "400x256@53p;15,794kHz" 8.465584 400 432 472 536 256 263 284 298 -hsync -vsync

modeline "352x288@51p;15,759kHz" 7.438248 352 384 408 472 288 292 301 309 -hsync -vsync
modeline "384x288@51p;15,759kHz" 8.068608 384 416 448 512 288 292 301 309 -hsync -vsync
modeline "512x288@51p;15,759kHz" 10.71612 512 544 616 680 288 292 301 309 -hsync -vsync
modeline "640x288@51p;15,759kHz" 13.4897 640 688 760 856 288 292 301 309 -hsync -vsync

Constructacon · « **Reply #545 on:** April 18, 2008, 08:45:24 am »

Ok. n00b time.

I'm trying to set up my system at the moment but am having difficulties. My set up is:

AMD Athlon chipset
ATI 9600 series video card (Catalyst 8.4 drivers)
Windows XP
Teac CT-M711S. VGA -> SCART
(I think that's all you need for now)

I installed Soft-15KHz and Quickres. Because neither came with documentation on how to use them (I'm not having a go at you SailorSat, but it may help those with a lesser knowledge) I think I may have selected a wrong setting. I did install the 15KHz settings and have done several reboots. I think I may have accidentally chosen a setting that manages to be both incompatible with my monitor and my TV. After windows boots (everything visible) I get an "Out of Frequency" error box which I understand this to mean that the software is working. However, once I plug the TV in I get nothing - just black. I know it was working before because I was getting doubling of the post screens (this hasn't caused it any damage has it?).

Now, after reading all 14 pages of this thread I think I understand where I went wrong (I hope). I tried to boot in safe mode which worked fine, but couldn't find where Soft-15K was installed or Quickres to uninstall them or turn them off. Can anyone help me out of my mess to try and start over?

SailorSat · « **Reply #546 on:** April 18, 2008, 09:26:27 am »

Where did you get your VGA to SCART cable? Did you wire it yourself?
If you see absolutely nothing then your wiring may be wrong.

As for installation directory...
Soft-15kHz doesn't install anywhere except the folder where you run it from. (thats also where it places the registry backup)
If you ran from the zip file without extracting it, the backup is most likely placed in the windows temp dir (which may be anywhere). In that case just download the zip again and run it from there again.

(Note to myself: check application path for *TEMP*)

ahofle · « **Reply #547 on:** April 18, 2008, 05:12:20 pm »

Quote from: SailorSat on April 18, 2008, 02:02:41 am

Hm... You should check it with QuickRes.
Currently I don't have a MedRes capable monitor ready to test, but it should work.

I tried it again and it's showing 37.8khz on the OSD when I select it! Are you sure the modeline is good? I wish I understood those lines better. Is there a good tool out there to generating these things? I tried the XFree86 one but I can never get it to take a resolution like 513x384 (it always changes it back to 512).

SailorSat · « **Reply #548 on:** April 18, 2008, 05:19:53 pm »

actually... the only way to test them would be a good old pentium2 400mhz, and DOS advance mame

ahofle · « **Reply #549 on:** April 18, 2008, 05:24:51 pm »

OK this one is VERY close and runs at 24.6khz:
Modeline "513x384@60" 15,38 513 544 600 632 384 392 396 404 -hsync -vsync

Everything looks great, except the very top is cut off a little bit. I guess I'll keep experimenting. Thx

EDIT: Modeline "513x384@60" 15,50 513 544 600 632 384 393 399 410 -hsync -vsync
seems to work (completely pulled out of ---my bottom--- LOL)

ahofle · « **Reply #550 on:** April 18, 2008, 06:26:07 pm »

A couple of very useful modelines for people with multisyncs:

Modeline "432x324@60" 13.4 432 440 496 536 324 326 330 351 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "416x312@60" 13 416 424 480 520 312 314 318 338 -hsync -vsync

EGA/25khz at 70 Hz! I hope I'm not damaging my Betson with those.

This let's you play those newer pesky vertical shmups like Don Pachi with a pixel perfect full screen!
I love this software!

Constructacon · « **Reply #551 on:** April 18, 2008, 07:15:18 pm »

I found the source of my problems - I had forgotten to reconnect the power component of my SCART lead as it was causing another problem elsewhere. After fixing the first problem I hooked it up and presto! ~~Windows on my TV.~~ MALA Front end + MAME on my TV. Windows doesn't like displaying after I exit the frontend.

The next problem is that the picture is now scrolling vertically (lined up - not doubled when booting). I think this is a V-Hold issue. Would this be the case? I can't seem to find an adjustment for it on the tv externally though. Anyone with any suggestions on how to fix either problem?

Ummon · « **Reply #552 on:** April 18, 2008, 08:40:53 pm »

Quote from: ahofle on April 18, 2008, 05:24:51 pm

EDIT: Modeline "513x384@60" 15,50 513 544 600 632 384 393 399 410 -hsync -vsync
seems to work (completely pulled out of ---my bottom--- LOL)

Where does this '513' come from? I've always seen 512.

Quote from: ahofle on April 18, 2008, 06:26:07 pm

A couple of very useful modelines for people with multisyncs:

Modeline "432x324@60" 13.4 432 440 496 536 324 326 330 351 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "416x312@60" 13 416 424 480 520 312 314 318 338 -hsync -vsync

EGA/25khz at 70 Hz! I hope I'm not damaging my Betson with those.

This let's you play those newer pesky vertical shmups like Don Pachi with a pixel perfect full screen!
I love this software!

Advancemame does this automatically (400x320 in the case of Strikers) - but for mame I've thought about doing this, as Strikers1945 is one such game.

Quote from: SailorSat on April 18, 2008, 05:19:53 pm

actually... the only way to test them would be a good old pentium2 400mhz, and DOS advance mame

I've actually been doing this with a 266mhz, but cards can be more problematic with older versions, and even just different games in them.

Quote from: Constructacon on April 18, 2008, 07:15:18 pm

The next problem is that the picture is now scrolling vertically (lined up - not doubled when booting). I think this is a V-Hold issue. Would this be the case? I can't seem to find an adjustment for it on the tv externally though. Anyone with any suggestions on how to fix either problem?

Look for a service menu.

Constructacon · « **Reply #553 on:** April 18, 2008, 11:22:18 pm »

Ok Windows is now displaying. It was fixed by setting desktop resolution to 640x480 before running soft-15KHz. V-Hold is still an issue.

Quote from: Ummon

Look for a service menu.

I've looked but can't seem to find one. Without RGB signal comming in through the SCART all on screen displays (channels etc) are showing up fine with no scrolling. Is there another setting of Soft-15KHz that I need to look at to fix this or does it sound like a TV issue?

SailorSat · « **Reply #554 on:** April 19, 2008, 06:28:26 am »

Quote from: Constructacon on April 18, 2008, 11:22:18 pm

Ok Windows is now displaying. It was fixed by setting desktop resolution to 640x480 before running soft-15KHz. V-Hold is still an issue.

Make sure both VGA Pin 13 and Pin 14 are connected to SCART Pin 20.

Constructacon · « **Reply #555 on:** April 19, 2008, 07:17:47 am »

Is that right? There's no mention of pin 14 on instructions to make a VGA->SCART cable in this thread.

I do agree though agree - it makes sense. VGA pin 13 is HSync and 14 is VSync. So combining them to SCART pin 20 (CSync) makes sense. But if so, why is it not mentioned in the thread AND in the wiki?

SailorSat · « **Reply #556 on:** April 19, 2008, 07:26:44 am »

Because the original source for this pinout uses an ATI card which is switched to composite sync.

Constructacon · « **Reply #557 on:** April 19, 2008, 09:05:13 am »

So my ATI card isn't then (Radeon 9600)? Which ones are?

styxx · « **Reply #558 on:** April 19, 2008, 03:14:34 pm »

Anyone tried the x300 or x700 radeon?

This may be stupid, but here goes...

The VGA-SCART homemade cable( http://community.arcadeinfo.de/showthread.php?t=9365 ) works with any PAL 50hz Scart TV or do you need a RGB Scart input TV with 50/60 Hz.

SailorSat · « **Reply #559 on:** April 19, 2008, 03:27:32 pm »

Quote from: Constructacon on April 19, 2008, 09:05:13 am

So my ATI card isn't then (Radeon 9600)? Which ones are?

Just connect Pin 13 and 14 together.


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