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Author Topic: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards  (Read 360203 times)

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steak

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2007, 11:26:28 pm »
Install the 15khz modes only and delete the INI of the game you want to try.
I am also running on a TV w/ a Gforce 6200 and component cables... you can see some pics here on the last page http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=60757.80

Joystick Jerk

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2007, 11:49:44 pm »
Yeah, but I still want the 25khz and 31 khz modes for the few games that use them and FE usage.

steak

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2007, 11:59:38 pm »
then just install them all, your emulator will pick the best resolution now available thx to Soft-15

Joystick Jerk

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2007, 12:44:52 am »
Yeah, I know that. I'm just interested in finding out how it decides to pick X resolution in 15khz mode when X resolution could also be picked in 25 or 31khz modes as well.

Hurray Banana

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2007, 03:13:27 am »
Yeah, I know that. I'm just interested in finding out how it decides to pick X resolution in 15khz mode when X resolution could also be picked in 25 or 31khz modes as well.

I was wondering this as well, it is impossible to tell if its 15Khz 640x480 or 31KHz until its selected and the display will either sync or not.
Cheers Eric

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SailorSat

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2007, 05:09:57 am »
I'm a little confused by resolution selection, and making sure that a game picks the right resolution. What I mean is,  several resolutions are duplicated in the different Khz modes, i.e. 640x480 can be selected in either 15khz mode or 31khz mode. When setting resolutions via mame ini's or the Quickres taskbar, all it lists is the resolution though, not the khz mode. So how do I make sure a game is selecting the 15khz-mode resolution and not the 31khz-mode resolution?
Ah... now I got it :)

The "lowres" (less than 350 lines) Modes (say 384x240) are not doubled and only available in 15KHz.
The "medres" (between 350 and 440 lines) resolutions are only available in 25KHz.
The "highres" (more than 440 lines), can either be 15KHz or 31KHz, however, If you choose 15+31KHz the same time, the 15KHz modes will be REMOVED and only the 31KHz will be added.

So there is be only 1 Frequency (either 15/25 or 31 KHz) per resolution.

There is a simple rule.
15KHz is basic.
25KHz overwrites 15KHz.
31KHz overwrites 25KHz.

So if you got a 640x480 definition for every Frequency, the 31KHz one will be the one selectable in Windows, and the otheres will be droped and cannot be selected.

--

IF you find ALL your resolutions beings doubled to 31KHz (or more) you most likely got an NVidia card and have more than 32 resolutions defined. This is due to a Bug in the ForceWare and can only be corrected by using less resolutions, most likely by disabling some unusual 15KHz resolutions.
(remove xx,yy in customZZkhz.txt)

resolutions that I would "remove":

remove 240,240
(custom15KHz.txt, games will use 256,240)

remove 448,384
(custom25KHz.txt, games will use 512,384)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 05:13:16 am by SailorSat »
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Soft-15kHz, cabMAME, For Amusement Only e.V.


Joystick Jerk

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2007, 05:42:42 am »
I actually have an ATI. I haven't been having any problems, I was just curious as to how it worked. I didn't forsee problems either, as I understand most arcade games don't even use the higher resolutions. Thanks for the info though, clears it all up!

Speaking of that though, is there any sort of info out there about what range of resolutions most games fall under, and what few particular games have used the higher resolutions, or the oft unused 25khz mode?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 05:44:27 am by Joystick Jerk »

SailorSat

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2007, 06:25:09 am »
hm...
yeah

export mames data to mame.xml and use some simple code to read it in.
i used something like that for an "tripple 15khz project", however did not finish it right now.
i only have a list of all resolutions used by mame, but not how many games use it.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 06:29:21 am by SailorSat »
I do all that stuff even without a Joystick ;)
Soft-15kHz, cabMAME, For Amusement Only e.V.


SailorSat

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2007, 06:31:14 am »
I've attached the list, however I don't know how usefull it will be :)
I do all that stuff even without a Joystick ;)
Soft-15kHz, cabMAME, For Amusement Only e.V.


2600

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2007, 08:54:20 am »
If you are using 15kHz, 25kHz, and 31kHz then most likely you have some sort of Multi-sync monitor.  Don't most of them have an OSD(on screen display).  The D9200 does and if you bring up the OSD, it will tell you the refresh rate the monitor is running at.

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2007, 08:50:50 pm »
Aren't refresh rate and the khz mode the monitor is running in two different things?

shorthair

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2007, 09:45:02 pm »
Just for informational purposes: I tried out my PIII with an old 64mb Radeon 7000 using .69. I had some bad flicker in Windows, and a little bit in game - both of which I'm sure could've been fixed but I didn't bother - otherwise, though it seemed to operate a little differently than the avga, it seemed to function just fine. Neat app.

Anubis_au

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2007, 11:42:49 pm »
Aren't refresh rate and the khz mode the monitor is running in two different things?

Nope, they are mathematically linked.

The vertical line rate times the refresh rate = the output line frequency

eg PAL tv: 625 scan lines x25 frames/sec (50 fields actually) = line frequency of 15.625kHz

NTSC tv: 525 scan lines x30 frames/sec (60 fields) = 15.75kHz line frequency

640x480 at 65Hz = 31kHz

etc

That's why its not enough to simply reduce the output resolution from a video card, because if its still clocked at a 31kHz line freq, the reduced res means a massively increased refresh rate, which might do damage to your monitor, or at best not work. That's why you need to reduce the line freqency to 15KHz via this software, or use an ArcadeVGA etc.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 11:49:23 pm by Anubis_au »

Joystick Jerk

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2007, 02:00:00 am »
That's what I meant, that although they're linked their not directly the same thing. Related to 2600's post, you can pull up the OSD on a monitor, but it would just display the refresh rate and not what mode you were necessarily in.

2600

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2007, 08:58:18 am »
Refresh Rate, Scan Rate, line frequency, or whatever is your naming flavor.  There are two components a horizontal and a vertical.  Both are listed in the OSD by the D9200 and almost every SVGA monitor or LCD I've used.

Example picture is in this Retroblast Article, titled "720 running at 25kHz":
http://retroblast.com/reviews/UltimarcArcadeVGA2-1292007-01.html


Joystick Jerk

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #55 on: May 17, 2007, 10:08:16 am »
Weird. Just my luck that over the years owning several CRT's, I can't recall any I owned that displayed the mode.

Good to know though.

shorthair

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2007, 02:07:48 pm »
Probly just didn't notice. In one case, the other day, my PC monitor wouldn't dispaly the resolution. Just the vertical scan. Sometimes, say when I pick a mame resolution that the AVGA supports, my multi-sync will show the scanning rates but will say 'user mode' for resolution. What I don't understand is why the resolution - generally, one below VGA - I have Mame set for does not match what the monitor's OSD says in-game.

ldl

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #57 on: May 17, 2007, 06:49:33 pm »
Are you guys saying that this proggie can be used with a regular tv (no scart)? I would hate to blow my tv.

Hurray Banana

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2007, 03:43:01 am »
You need to have a hacked VGA cable to an RGB input on your TV, i.e. SCART, it won't work through anything else.
Cheers Eric

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ldl

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2007, 09:11:39 am »
Thanks. Confusing but thanks. The reason I asked is because I have the same tv thats mentioned in the top post (Insignia with component) and nothing is mentioned about a scart connection. Thanks again.

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2007, 09:14:38 am »
SCART is a European standard that offers component (RGB) input through a single 21 pin connector.
Cheers Eric

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steak

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2007, 09:34:02 am »
Are you guys saying that this proggie can be used with a regular tv (no scart)? I would hate to blow my tv.

It works with my insignia.. check post http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=60757.msg676857#msg676857

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #62 on: May 18, 2007, 01:24:32 pm »
You need to have a hacked VGA cable to an RGB input on your TV, i.e. SCART, it won't work through anything else.

What about a DVI to RGB input on TV?  Will that work?

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #63 on: May 18, 2007, 02:41:44 pm »
Do a search - DVI to component. Another thing (or set of things) for the wiki.

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2007, 02:56:22 pm »
Are you guys saying that this proggie can be used with a regular tv (no scart)? I would hate to blow my tv.

It works with my insignia.. check post http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=60757.msg676857#msg676857


I have read all the related post and I am currently using ATI 9500 with DVI adapter. I simply just would like to know if this is enough. None of the post I read spell this out in black & white.
 :dunno I am a rookie and don't like to assume. :dunno

Edit
Steak,  I owe you an appology. I re-read the post you directed me to and yes the answer is there in black & white. Off to testing for me now.
Thanks goes out to everyone for your input.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 04:48:27 pm by ldl »

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #65 on: May 19, 2007, 09:26:44 pm »
Do a search - DVI to component. Another thing (or set of things) for the wiki.

I already have the DVI to component, what I'm asking is if it works with Soft 15 and a TV.  I'm pretty sure that answer isnt' in the WIKI or the search function.

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #66 on: May 19, 2007, 10:31:48 pm »
Do a search - DVI to component. Another thing (or set of things) for the wiki.

I already have the DVI to component, what I'm asking is if it works with Soft 15 and a TV.  I'm pretty sure that answer isnt' in the WIKI or the search function.

Yes. That is all I am using. Read the above post

Glaine

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #67 on: May 22, 2007, 12:44:00 pm »
I'm only using the S-vid port on my nvidia card on an insignia 19 inch TV and it's been working great so far.

I think what may be confusing some people is that me and steak are using TVs that we could already interface with using video cards and we are only using this program to further increase mame graphics. People with arcade monitors are in a different boat as they obviously have to be even more careful about what settings they send to their monitors.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2007, 12:47:29 pm by Glaine »

Silver

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #68 on: May 22, 2007, 01:22:01 pm »
Does this program have any effect when using S-video or Composite out of your graphics card?

As you gfx card is already creating a 15Khz signal for you....

SailorSat

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #69 on: May 22, 2007, 01:35:50 pm »
Uhm... It "should" change something...
never tried it :)
I do all that stuff even without a Joystick ;)
Soft-15kHz, cabMAME, For Amusement Only e.V.


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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2007, 09:50:34 am »
This sounds like a great tool, but I'm still a little confused.

Basically, I am using an ATI 9500 Pro with S-Video out to connect to a 27" Mitsubishi CS27MX1 TV via the S-Video.

My questions are:

1) Will this program adjust the frequencies via the S-Video output or is the S-Video output always forced to standard NTSC?
2) If it does send the frequencies, can they damage a TV?
3) Does someone have pictures of the results using this connection method?

Before and after pictures would be nice.

Also, Steak, it would be nice to see some before and after pictures of your results, not just "after" pics.

Thanks in advance!
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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2007, 03:47:08 pm »
Got it working today.  ATI Radeon card of some kind.  Only allows some kind of freaky resolution like 700x480 or something.  Quite flickery.

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2007, 05:25:49 pm »
Got it working today.  ATI Radeon card of some kind.  Only allows some kind of freaky resolution like 700x480 or something.  Quite flickery.

What configuration are you running?  TV (S-Video, Component, etc.) , Arcade Monitor, Computer Monitor, etc.
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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2007, 05:27:16 pm »
Arcade monitor of course; that's what this tool is made for.  A 13" K7000.

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2007, 05:30:20 pm »
Arcade monitor of course; that's what this tool is made for.  A 13" K7000.

Thanks, I was just curious.  There is another thread on this same topic in the "Main" forum with people trying to get it to work on a TV.
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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #75 on: May 31, 2007, 03:05:00 am »
I was messing around with an ATI 7000, on my Billabs. There's some flicker on the desktop at VGA and XGA. Also tried an Nvidia 6200 and same thing. Game-wise, some ran, some didn't. In the latter, either the monitor would cut out/power down, or it would keep doing that suction noise like it was trying but couldn't do it. The thing was, some of the classics - like Pac-man, or rather that native resolution - this happened with. Some others, too, though.

I noticed a couple other things, too: the monitor doesn't make that high-pitched sound like it does with the AVGA, nor is the image as bright as with it, either. (And it doesn't do that schizo thing, but a much smoother transition, when it comes out of a game.) I actually like this better.

Peale and you monitor tech folk know what's happening, here?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 03:08:31 am by shorthair »

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #76 on: May 31, 2007, 09:05:12 am »
I noticed a couple other things, too: the monitor doesn't make that high-pitched sound like it does with the AVGA, nor is the image as bright as with it, either. (And it doesn't do that schizo thing, but a much smoother transition, when it comes out of a game.) I actually like this better.

Peale and you monitor tech folk know what's happening, here?

Sound indicated some variety of sync issue.  Note that I said issue, not problem.  Brightness may be from not having a video amp, or possibly the AVGA is tuned for a brighter picture. 

Just my speculation.

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #77 on: May 31, 2007, 02:50:42 pm »
Got it working today.  ATI Radeon card of some kind.  Only allows some kind of freaky resolution like 700x480 or something.  Quite flickery.

So you couldn't run any real CGA resolutions like 320x240, 288x224, etc? 

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #78 on: May 31, 2007, 03:40:15 pm »
Got it working today.  ATI Radeon card of some kind.  Only allows some kind of freaky resolution like 700x480 or something.  Quite flickery.

So you couldn't run any real CGA resolutions like 320x240, 288x224, etc? 

I didn't try it with Mame, Windows only.  Window would only allow those resolutions.

I was trying this quickly while my daughter was down for a nap.  She woke up early, so I didn't get the level of testing I wanted.

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Re: Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards
« Reply #79 on: May 31, 2007, 03:53:56 pm »
Thanks, Peale. Obviously Andy would know, but I hadn't gotten that far, yet.

  
 

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