Mame Devs Part of BYOAC?

[FrizzleFried]

RBelmont said on MAMEWORLD:

You *really* don't want to wave a red flag in front of the devs like that. We made BYOAC possible, we can unmake it.

Not sure what that was in response to as the post he was referring to was deleted by the time I read it.  Something about HISCORE.DAT though?  I can't provide a direct link as I am forced to go through a proxy server which changes the URL.

Do the MAMEDevs have anything to do with BYOAC?

[IG-88]

Maybe I'm wrong but I was thinking this is Saint's baby.....

[CheffoJeffo]

MAMEDevs seem to have been hating on BYOAC lately ... 

[RandyT]

RBelmont said on MAMEWORLD:

You *really* don't want to wave a red flag in front of the devs like that. We made BYOAC possible, we can unmake it.

Not sure what that was in response to as the post he was referring to was deleted by the time I read it.  Something about HISCORE.DAT though?  I can't provide a direct link as I am forced to go through a proxy server which changes the URL.

Do the MAMEDevs have anything to do with BYOAC?

The MAME devs have contributed so much and are deserving of respect.  Some of the newer folks getting into the hobby sometimes get caught up in the excitement and forget that MAME wasn't made just for them, and don't stop to think about the thousands of man hours put into the project for no pay.  When they get pushy, the devs understandably tend to get perturbed.  People should learn not to defecate where they eat.

But I don't think his statement was meant quite the way you took it (at least it wouldn't make much sense in that vein.)  Obviously they can halt work on the project and you'd never see another new game supported, or any kind of improvements added.  But trying to un-make MAME at this point would be akin to trying to take back your virginity.   BYOAC, as a web site, belongs to Saint (and IIRC, his publisher if that deal is still in effect.)  What happens here is ultimately up to them.

RandyT

[Kaytrim]

Do you remember what forum and thread it was under?

[Goz]

I'm not replying to taunt the MAME devs but there are a good portion of arcade enthusiasts here who dont own MAME cabs.

[SGT]

http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=105754&page=&view=expanded&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

[SavannahLion]

For those of us who are still new to BYOAC, can anyone please elaborate who Saint is?

I understand he owns this site (his name is on the About page and sprinkled elsewhere), but what relation does he have with the MAMEDEV? Is he a MAMEDEV as well?

[FrizzleFried]

Again...I am not sure what was said...it was said in a HISCORE.DAT thread which the Mamedevs aren't none to happy about (the fact that it is being supported by 3rd party that is).  They want savestates to take hold,  which would be perfectly fine with me if they would "keep" from version to version,  but as of right now,  they do not.   By the time I saw the thread,  the offending message that RB was responding to had been voluntarily deleted by the author....

[knave]

I read the above thread and as a noob interpretation it almost seems like the author is using BYOAC as a generic name for the hobby in general not this site specifically.  

I don't think the devs would let one post from "some guy" get under their skin after all they've done and worked toward.

[horseboy]

For those of us who are still new to BYOAC, can anyone please elaborate who Saint is?

This guy...

If you see him run. He will bite.

I understand he owns this site (his name is on the About page and sprinkled elsewhere), but what relation does he have with the MAMEDEV? Is he a MAMEDEV as well?

He is no Mame dev, that is for sure. He does like model trains, though...

I'll leave you to chew on that for a while, and come up with your own conclusion. 

[vorghagen]

Saint: When it comes to building your own arcade machine. This guy wrote the book....... quite literally. BYOAM

[tetsu96]

RBelmont said on MAMEWORLD:

You *really* don't want to wave a red flag in front of the devs like that. We made BYOAC possible, we can unmake it.

Not sure what that was in response to as the post he was referring to was deleted by the time I read it.  Something about HISCORE.DAT though?  I can't provide a direct link as I am forced to go through a proxy server which changes the URL.

Do the MAMEDevs have anything to do with BYOAC?

There's no direct control / etc that I'm aware of for this site from MAME.  BYOAC transcends MAME because even though a whole bunch of people here have MAME cabs, BYOAC also encompasses building your own JAMMA cabs and Console / PC -> Cab setups as well.  Not to mention all the support you can find on existing cabs / hardware.

And like Randy said, give props to these guys.  MAME has been a WIP for over 10 years now, and RB goes back a long way with this project.  He, and other MAMEDEV, can be somewhat scathing in comments on forums (and funny usually), but the things they rip into others for tend to be the things that are always asked about like adding netplay to standalone cabinet games and insuring savestate compatability across MAME versions.

People newer to the hobby wouldn't know the hot topics right away but if they lurked a little more and searched forums before asking questions they'd be able to find out.

From a code perspective, I'm not sure how difficult it is to keep the savestates compatable from one version to the next, but MAME has been going through a lot of changes internally.  I'm sure that keeping the core of the system working while revamping as they see fit is a lot more important than emulating savestate features that often go beyond what machines did in arcades.

[Crowquill]

He, and other MAMEDEV, can be somewhat scathing in comments on forums (and funny usually), but the things they rip into others for tend to be the things that are always asked about like adding netplay to standalone cabinet games and insuring savestate compatability across MAME versions.

"Scathing" is an understatement in this case. This is a broad generalization that is more like a racial slur. Especially to be so full of himself that he has control of a website and community that he is in no way affiliated. If Marshall said something inappropriate, go off on him/her. I don't care what the post was, it doesn't deserve that response. I'm guessing Marshall wasn't claiming to be the webmaster of BYOAC. I'm wondering what the other devs think about that comment.

I am extremely appreciative of all the work that has gone into both official MAME and even the unofficial ones. A lot of talented people have spent a lot of time to make it the program it is today. But unlike R.Belmont's comments, I don't think "the devs" are jerks, just him/her.

[Havok]

I can understand why RB got pissed - a copy of Mame was put up for download, with no source, no authorization, etc. Big no-no...

But... he's full of crap if he thinks he can "unmake" BYOAC - there's not a lick of Mame on my SEGA Turbo cab, or my Arachnid English Mark Darts machine, and I can find lots of great information here on how to repair them, or modify. I won't even go into the pleathora of monitor information, and pinball stuff too.

This isn't just a site about Mame, it's about the hardware too.

So, RB - you are a  , however, you are right about having that compiled version getting taken down.

 

[CheffoJeffo]

What did that binary have to do with BYOAC ? It was hosted on MW, wasn't it ?

[Kaytrim]

It was an altered binary file and against the license that MAME has.  We are able to recompile MAME but we can't distribute the binary file.

Kaytrim

[Zakk]

RBelmont may just have been having a bad day, however a couple of Mamedevs have been slagging us here lately, and it's unfortunate.  Still I would highly recommend that everyone refrain from answering him with any snide comments, as he has given a lot to this community, no question.  Somewhere, someone here may have ticked mamedev off, and there's no need to start a brawl when there is absolutely no need for it. 

Also, if you saw someone doing something to profit from your hard work, you'd probably be a bit pissy about it too.  There's no question that the info on this site could be used to build illegal machines that play mame^(tm) for money, on location. 

So just let it go, that's my honest opinion.

[CheffoJeffo]

It was an altered binary file and against the license that MAME has.  We are able to recompile MAME but we can't distribute the binary file.

Yeah, but that binary file was hosted by MW. I get the licensing issues, but wondered what set him off about this place ?  The key is undoubtedly in the deleted post.

If there is something going on here that hasn't been addressed and is pissing the MAMEDevs off, then it would be useful to know what it is.

If we don't know, then we can't do anything about it.

Cheers

[Kaytrim]

I wonder if it has anything to do with the multi game boards that were talked about for a while then Saint sent the threads to post hell.  I remember that one of the devs, Adam I think, posted in one of those threads very pissed off about other people making money off of their hard work.

[FrizzleFried]

I wonder if it has anything to do with the multi game boards that were talked about for a while then Saint sent the threads to post hell.  I remember that one of the devs, Adam I think, posted in one of those threads very pissed off about other people making money off of their hard work.

Actually it was Aaron...the head mamedev...but my understanding was that it (them being upset at something here) has been going on since before that time.   It would be nice to know what in the heck was said in that one deleted response.   

[SithMaster]

I wonder if it has anything to do with the multi game boards that were talked about for a while then Saint sent the threads to post hell.  I remember that one of the devs, Adam I think, posted in one of those threads very pissed off about other people making money off of their hard work.

arent those boards made in china?  and the byoac is in the states?

no he's pissed because someone posted an auction link and he lost because of the unwanted publicity.

[Zakk]

I thought it was Davr that was cheesed.

[GoPodular.com]

I don't think he was talking "BYOAC" as in the BYOAC website.  I think he was talking "BYOAC" as in MAME cabinets.

IIRC, he's a member here, so if he had something to say about this site, he would do so.

[Aurich]

Yeah, but that binary file was hosted by MW. I get the licensing issues, but wondered what set him off about this place ?  The key is undoubtedly in the deleted post.

It would appear that someone from BYOAC was the offender who made the upload, if I'm reading this post correctly. Which was a part of our stickied high score diff thread. So actually it does come back here unless I'm misunderstanding Leezer's post. If I'm wrong then I apologize, but otherwise that was very stupid.

Edit: Ok, read the linked MAME thread, and yeah, it was Leezer, so the comment about BYOAC was dead on. It might be best if some clarifications were made to that sticky to avoid further unnecessary friction. The MAME devs are certainly in the right here. Compile your own version if you want to make changes.

[CheffoJeffo]

That makes some sense now (guess I don't read the software forum that much)... thanks. 

[FrizzleFried]

Leezer has a total of 10 posts here...how can that be a BYOAC issue?

[Kaytrim]

Leezer has a total of 10 posts here...how can that be a BYOAC issue?

and that is during six months as a member here.  If his email he is correct is from the UK.

Hey Fozzy, think you can look him up and slap him around a bit?   He needs to learn not to go and shake up the hornets nest.

[FrizzleFried]

Not to mention the offending file was stored on HIS page on MAMEWORLD.NET!  Why not ---smurfette--- at the MAMEWORLD.NET folks instead of BYOAC...oh...never mind...I know why.

[Kaytrim]

I did a little more digging and all 10 of his posts were in relation to the highscore diff.

[FrizzleFried]

I "THINK" he is the keeper of hiscore.dat ...

[Aurich]

Leezer has a total of 10 posts here...how can that be a BYOAC issue?

Well we can't see the edited post that caused the problem, but I think we can assume it was a link to that thread, which is how it came back to BYOAC.

Either way, the problem stemmed from here and he found out about it. A little common sense and discretion would make the issue vanish. If you want to compile MAME in a way that goes against what the devs are trying to do just don't wave it in their faces.

[Brad]

It was because the post on mameworld linked to the highscore.diff on this forum.

I also have seen a LOT of disparaging remarks about this site from MameDevs. Not sure why but this was just the latest.

Brad

[SavannahLion]

--original post deleted--

Forget it, all the pontificating in the world isn't going to make any difference.

Let people take potshots at whatever website they hate for the day. What really counts is that while they're sitting on their duff looking for things to say, I'm going to be doing the things I really enjoy. Opinions be damned.

[IG-88]

--original post deleted--

Aww....That was the best post of this whole stupid discussion! 

[AaronGiles]

Hey, what a good opportunity to set the record straight:

* The MAME developers have nothing officially to do with BYOAC. Some of us do occasionally post here and read the forum.

* R. Belmont speaks for R. Belmont. There is no official voice of the MAME developers. Don't take anything he says to be the sentiments of over 100 individuals. It is just one person's opinion.

* R. Belmont, if you've seen him post, tends to call anything he doesn't like an "illegal build of MAME" or whatever. This is nonsense. If a modified version of MAME follows the license, it is legal. That doesn't mean he (or the rest of the team) has to like it, though if it goes against our basic philosophy, we'll probably try to reduce attention to it on sites that are friendly to the team.

* The build that was posted was binary only with no included source changes. This violates the license, and was properly removed.

* If someone wants to maintain a build of MAME with hiscore.dat support in it, please by all means do it. Just follow the rules and things will be fine. If such a build turns into the "game players'" port of MAME, even better. I'd personally welcome such a derivative, as it would be presumably built by and for people who are interested in the issues that people complain about here.

* The goals of the people here at BYOAC are often at odds with the goals of the MAME project. Nothing wrong with that, it's just the way it is. It's really best to just accept these differences rather than getting angry at each other, and try to find more productive outlets. Yelling or whining at us because we made some change that doesn't align with what you want doesn't do any good.

* Yes, I did complain about the 1000-in-1 board post. Again, it was discussing a product that openly violated the MAME license and made a big profit from it, and frankly if you support what we do I think it's an inappropriate topic for a forum like this. Of course, when I brought it up, I basically received a big from the folks posting there. Fine, whatever, it's up to Saint to straighten things out (which he did, thanks). But this sort of reaction is typical of reasons why a lot of the developers don't have a particularly high opinion of the folks here.

* On the positive side, there are a lot of cool things happening here, like the output support and all the great new controllers that are being created for cabinets. I've set up a cabinet and wired a control panel myself, and I can appreciate the lengths people here go to to pimp their cabinets. There are some awesomely dedicated and talented people doing this stuff!

Overall, I personally (and I'm not speaking for the team here) don't have any major beefs overall with BYOAC. I'd only suggest that folks realize that this forum is only going to get as much respect from the devs as the posters here demonstrate to each other and to the devs (and if you think ass-kissing == respect, you're way off base).

[Dav]

I thought it was Davr that was cheesed.

I was mostly cheesed because Aaron was cheesed and nobody seemed to care.  Generally such a sharp word from the head of MameDev would have at least caused everyone to slowdown and think a little instead of just 1 or 2.

No idea why RB was cheesed since the post was deleted.

[blueznl]

I wonder if we now can stop and go back to our hobby? 

[MKChamp]

I won't go into a long rant...I'll keep it short. I've been following all these forums for quit some time and rarely post. I'm "CokeDealer" at mameworld...and I can't remember what the hell I am at MAME. Point being,  Richard "Represents" MAME to alot of 'newbies' that have legitiment though sometimes flat out retarded questions. He is an ass. Yes, he contributes quit alot to the scene and I AM GRATEFUL., however, that does not give anyone a free ticket. Richard is an online bully that is a smart guy. The reality is, if he spoke that way in 'RL', his high schools days would be re-visited. I am a big believer in respect someone to gain respect. As I stated earlier, I browse ALOT more(daily) than I post, and Aaron, Haze and Derrick have my upmost respect because they give so much without the 'attitude'. That deserves respect. I am not big for 'attitude' people. While reading post he makes there are so many times I've wanted to respond to him...but I'll qoute a saying I read(while browsing another unrelated site):
Winning a flame war is like winning at the special olympics. Sure, you came in first, but you're still retarded.
And another:
Online is the only place a 15 year old '---smurfette---' can call me a '---smurfette---' and get away with it.

[pointdablame]

I agree with MKChamp, but I have to say, calling R.Belmont out on "being an ass" is not going to help.  If he is rude, he's going to be rude.  If he doesn't like BYOAC, folks here ganging up on him and yelling are not likely to help.  This is how it goes though.. one person steps up and no one backs down and then we create this perceived "feud."  It's asinine if you ask me.

I have to agree with Aaron on pretty much everything he said regarding the situation.  I will say though, Aaron, at times it is upsetting that a Dev will paint the entire BYOAC community with a broad brush stroke simply because a few people complained about a change in MAME (or whatever other reason there is at the time).  I think the problem comes down to the fact people very rarely speak up when everything is ok.  I'm positive that the devs don't get nearly enough 'thank you' emails as compared to complaints, either on boards or elsewhere.  That is human nature.  It's just a shame that some devs seem to ridicule and ostracize the entire BYOAC community because of a few people who complain.. and who likely complain about anything they can in life.

I understand it is easier to say 'BYOAC' as opposed to a list of offenders, but I hope you (the devs) can see that it isn't exactly fair.  There is a great majority of people here who are extremely thankful for all the work you folks do, and realize that you guys are a big reason this place even exists.  So at the risk of kissing ass as you mention, I thank you and all the devs.  Most people do in fact try to show you all respect.  It's not exactly respectful on the dev's end, however, to group all of BYOAC into a box.