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Ultimarc Arcade VGA2 comparisons using a LCD for PC
genesim:
So the probplem is like I thought. You can't set any weird resolutions like 400x256 without the card.
Maybe more pictures will follow soon. I would like to compare the bit map of a MK game against the local.
RandyT:
--- Quote from: genesim on July 26, 2007, 02:59:36 am ---As pixel count gets higher and higher, the differences will become more and more neglible using multiple pixel technology.
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Correct, and I believe I said that already.
--- Quote ---BUT, I do standby that Direct Draw with hardware stretch shows the obvious problems that you preach against.
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Please refresh my memory. I think the things I have preached against are sharp edged images. Everything else are just facts.
--- Quote ---Now that said, I did try the bitmap prescaling and I saw similarities. Still, you cannot get away from the fact that the tricks are being used on Windows default settings as opposed to using a programmed fixed resolution through the hardware.
The resolution that is displayed is exactly what is being picked.....I just don't know how they got there.
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I think that may be the crux of the issue. The resolution is, in fact, not what the windows utility says is being displayed, rather what your LCD panel tells you it is receiving when you look at your LCD panels built in menu screens. The "tricks" you are talking about exist across the board, with the exception in the case of MAME where they are not hidden from the user. As for it occurring in "hardware", so is the DirectDraw and D3D scaling. Again, no magic there.
--- Quote ---From what I have seen, it doesn't appear like there is much to gain from the card over bitmap prescaling except for one thing. EASE OF USE. .
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I believe I stated this already as well.
--- Quote ---Still, I think it is a waste of time at this point, because I concede that the results are going to be like the pictures above. I wish I could put the odd resolutions to the test with anti-aliasing, but MAME32FX doesn't let you pick the resolutions other then windows default. Perhaps I am missing something. That or another version of MAME would better achieve this. By the way....ignorant/lazy for the dos version. Tried it once...got it running, thought it was too much bother. Nothing against people that do, but making little notepad commands just isn't my cup of tea...and yes I have done front ends too, I just prefer the windows interface.
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If you concede that there is no difference between the output using the methods outlined here and that of the card, then absolutely there is no need for further pictures. They were as much to allow you to see that fact as others who might be following along :)
Not wanting to deal with command line options is valid, but doing so with an LCD panel is far less complex compared to a standard CRT. With LCD there is pretty much one setting (your LCD native resolution) along with the options outlined in this thread. After that, it pretty much does things automatically for you.
--- Quote ---But Randy, I have to say, are you still standing behind the fact that Direct Draw with hardware stretch is better then the Arcade VGA estimation? It is there in the pictures, and I can't imagine how anyone would prefer that crap.
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I never made that assertion. I said the two could be made equal with the proper settings in MAME. But I honestly think that it is a difficult proposition to get a good looking classic arcade game representation on an LCD panel. It's my opinion that neither really do the game justice. However, using a prescale of 2 with Direct3D's bi-linear filtering enabled (as Aaron recommended in the documentation) does make LCD display more palatable. This also works with DirectDraw using the same pre-scale and -hwstretch. What this does is add a very subtle softness to the edge of the graphics. So it's much of what you like with a just the right amount of softness to reduce the hard edged look. The ability to do this, in my opinion, trumps a fixed pseudo-mode that has only the hard edged option.
RandyT
genesim:
Randy,
--- Quote ---Correct, and I believe I said that already.
--- End quote ---
You do understand that I am referring to the fact that as pixels get higher on LCD's this occurs..just checking.
--- Quote ---Please refresh my memory. I think the things I have preached against are sharp edged images. Everything else are just facts.
--- End quote ---
You stated that Hardware stretch with Direct draw is just as good. I don't agree. One mars the original code, the other doesn't(at leas as much).
--- Quote ---As for it occurring in "hardware", so is the DirectDraw and D3D scaling. Again, no magic there.
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The card has set resolutions. Direct Draw or D3D scaling are independent of that. One is pre, one is post. Not the same thing.
--- Quote ---I believe I stated this already as well.
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There have been so many posts, that I don't remember that. Still, who cares. I saw for myself, no big deal. Though I will say this. I didn't say it, because I was arguing against Direct 3D and Direct Draw stretched. I didn't even know much about bitmap prescaling. I admit it, but I wasn't arguing against it either.
--- Quote ---They were as much to allow you to see that fact as others who might be following along.
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Uhh except for the fact that I was never referring to bitmap anything.
--- Quote ---But I honestly think that it is a difficult proposition to get a good looking classic arcade game representation on an LCD panel. It's my opinion that neither really do the game justice.
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Well that is certaintly your opinion, but I have never liked scanlines. Even if the authors intended it. It doesn't mean that the original code isn't being accurately drawn, it just isn't impaired(intended or otherwise), by inferior analog connections etc. etc.
The end result is LCD's do alot and you don't get the downfalls of a CRT in the process.
Though you didn't answer my question. How exactly is the best way to show something like Marvel Vs Capcom 2 which uses both low res and high res images?? If you look at the pictures you can see that the images are pretty spot on. All that "distortion" just isn't there is it? Gee LCD's are so terrible. A few effects can give very similar results and yet you continually say how LCD displays are a bad choice. The differences are minimal, and you ignoring the other obvious pitfalls shows where your mindset is at. You lose picture with Analog, bottom line. If you want to get into a few pixels, I can come back with ALL the pixels being distorted on a CRT display. How about adressing those problems that do not exist on an LCD.
A little software can fix the LCD display, NOTHING will fix the CRT.
Arcade VGA does a wonderful job of rectifying alot of the problems as that can be seen by the pictures. True bitmap gives you SIMILAR results, but takes alot more experimentation. Doesn't mean that the card is any less for it. There are alot of things that get the job done, and Ultimarcs is one of the ways.
But hey, I can see how a competitor would be jumping all over this. Showing Ultimarc as having a good product is not exactly your first priority. I can understand that.
Incidently, I will compare bitmap to arcade vga on one standing that I found to be true. MAME default resolutions are a problem. On weird resolutions, I am very curious to see the result(of which with Mortal Kombat I already know).
You can't polish a turd, and if resolutions aren't set properly then there are even more artifacts that are present which are at least approximated on a set multiple pixel out put.
You act as if there is no difference.
RandyT:
--- Quote from: genesim on July 26, 2007, 11:40:13 pm ---But hey, I can see how a competitor would be jumping all over this. Showing Ultimarc as having a good product is not exactly your first priority. I can understand that.
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My first priority as a member of the community is to keep the facts straight and assuage BS. If you have to use tactics like this to draw attention away from the hole you dug for yourself and now find yourself peering out of, then we have no more to discuss.
I'm glad you could finally experience what everyone has been telling you about since the first page of this thread.
RandyT
genesim:
You know, in looking what I wrote. I feel bad. I apologize for several reasons, but mainly because it is jumping to a conclusion that I cannot possibly know if its true.
I hope you accept that.
Can you be fair and at least admit that you haven't been the coolest with me either?
I was looking over your website, and it is a very nice set up. Hopefully someday I may even be a customer.
XXXXXXXXXX
As for what I have been told....LCD's are a crap monitor. I disagree and still do.
Just because Bitmap prescaling gives a similar result, doesn't make the video card any less of a good tool for approximating the original displays. It would be nice if you would adress my points and well as the CRT limitations instead of completely drumming how "bad" an LCD monitor is for retro gaming. Not only is this completely untrue, but your opinion is no better then mine.
I have always kept the facts straight, and it is all there to be had. Your implications haven't exactly made me happy either.
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