Wells Gardner U3100 vs PC-monitor -worth it?

[Carsten Carlos]

Hi!

While making some progress with my cabinet-plans, I wonder if I'll be satisfied with an PC-monitor, or is it worth to get a Wells Gardner U3100 (19")?

Unfortunately I need it shipped to Germany, I'm not that sure if it makes the whole way without getting broken.
Is the look that different / has someone a good picture of this monitor in action? Are there less rotation-problems as with the normal PC-monitors?

Last but not least, it would be very nice if someone could throw me the dimensions over - especially the depth of the chassis, so I may have a look how to actually fit it in the cabinet.

Many thanx in advance!

Carsten

[Carsten Carlos]

Oh, just forgotten, I just wonder which scanlines-mode in the actual MAME-version is the most realistic?
I can't find anything similar to the method of the older versions, and all that I tried are very blocky.

[Android]

If you are in Germany, why don't you try www.hantarex.co.uk instead? That will save you a ton of cash in shipping and reduce the risk of damage during shipping.

-- Android

[Frobozz the Mad]

You're in luck, because I JUST got my WG U3100 in yesterday and decided to plug it in and test it out.  

First, here are some facts about degaussing / monitor rotation I saw.

The WG U3100 has a degaussing coil, but it only fires on start up, after at least 30 minutes of no power.  

Screen discoloration from rotation happens just as much as with PC monitors.  If the monitor degausses itself though, there is not problem afterward, the picture is correct.  But if you like to change games often from hoz to vert, buy a degaussing wand.

Next, the WG U3100 comes with a HORIZONTAL mount, NOT a universal mount.  This may make it tricky to rotate, especially if you're like me and want to mount it at about 30 degrees.  

If you're using MAME32, you may need to play around with screen mode settings to get it to display on the monitor properly.  I needed to try Spy Hunter about 15 times before I got it to come up at all, and another 5 to get it correctly.

Also, NO scanline modes seem to work with the WG U3100.  The picture it produces is generally too low-resolution to do this.  

BUT!  The picture looks absolutely fantastic!  First game I started up on the thing after plugging it in was Donkey Kong, and it LOOKED like the Donkey Kong I remember.  While it doesn't have scanlines, it DOES have a very large, almost pixelated display.  Everything about it seems to "feel" right.  I'm very happy with my choice.

I then tried newer games, like Dark Stalkers and KoF2000, and they displayed fine.  

Also, it should be noted that the yoke of the WG U3100 is turned VERTICALLY.  Thus, tt scans in COLUMNS rather than ROWS.  This makes it look REALLY GOOD as an arcade monitor.  

Dimensions I needed as well.  As soon as I unpacked the thing, I measured it.

Unfortunatly, I left my measurements at home, but I'll tell you what I can remember:

All units in inches.  Sorry my german friend, but as an american monitor, it was made using old american units.

From edge of monitor glass to the top of the nuts in the mount (monitor bezel depth) 3/4 inches (I measured this for the thickness of the wood to use for the big circular disk around the screen.)

Width across the bottom mounting plate: 18.5 inches (Width of the bottom of the "drawer" the monitor will sit in.  Also, the main peice the monitor gets bolted to.  Most mounts are on the underside.)

Width (roughly) from bottom of side plate to top of side plate:  15 inches.  (Measured this for the height of my side-walls of the "drawer".  The triangular side plates have LOTS of holes in them for easy mounting.)

Length from top of nuts in the mount to a point at the rear of the monitor clearing the yoke:  About 15 inches.
(This is my measurement for the depth of the "drawer".  To complete the wooden "drawer" / box the monitor will sit in, a final peice will be added across the back (18.5 x 15), though if you're making a "spool" type rotating mount, you'd use a disc.

Let me go home and confirm these measurements though.  I was slightly dissappointed that it had no universal mount, but I can make a box-like wooden enclosure to rotate it in.

I hope those dimensions made sense to you

[Carsten Carlos]

Hi Frobozz, thanx for the long message, it really helps me very very much! And was very interesting to read - hardly can't await to have such a baby.

I'm currently getting pretty used to multiplicate everything I read with 2,54 - the dimensions are really helpful!

When I take the U3100, I could make the cabinet 3-4 inches more slim compared to a typical PC-monitor - that's another pro for the Wells-Gardner!

You said there are no scanlines but it looks more pixelated (and realistic, what's most important ) - how is that meant? I guess there isn't that blockiness of a normal PC-monitor, and there is something like a bit of "black" space between each pixel, so to say?

Well, if you might have a digicam and have some time left, could you please make a photo (detail would be enough) runnning Donkey Kong (one of my favorites) or anything else? Anyway, I'll have a look at your confirmed measurements.

My best regards,
Carsten
 

[Frobozz]

Ok, the measurements I remembered were correct.   (I brought my "Project Book" into work today

If you were to frame the three sides of the monitor, leaving the top open, the base would be 18.5" x 15", and the sides 15" x 15".  

Front piece would be 3/4" thick.  

Now, I'll warn you that the VGA cable for the monitor is very short, but there's a clip bolting it to the chassis.  I unbolted it and got another 2 feet out of it.

Also, if you order it, MAKE SURE you order a power connector as well!  It DOESN'T come with one, and the power connector is on a different page of the Wells-Gardner site (where I ordered mine from for $300 US)

You'll also notice two versions of the 19" U3100:
WGM1931-M1GS08K
WGM1931-M2TS26H

The specs are the same, so I called to find out the difference.  Here's what I was told:

"The 08K is a lower grade tube and board set, and is typically used in arcade machines.  The 26H is a higher grade tube and board set, and is used mostly in information kiosks or wall-mount displays.  Both have a detachable control board (note: board with contrast, bright, hsize, hoffset, vsize, and voffset controls, on a 2 foot cable), and both are on a horizontal mount (framed on bottom and triangular supports on sides.  Does NOT have a rear brace, does NOT have a face / bezel mounting plate.  Is bolted on using standard bolts and can easilly be modified though by my observations)."

When I say it looks more pixelated, there is a very distinct mask around the scan cells.  With the monitor sitting normally (on it's flat base, horizontally) there are black lines between the columns that give the appearance of scanlines.  There are also much thinner little horizontal lines in a staggered pattern (like brick work) between the columns.  The end effect makes it look very much like an arcade monitor.

When I say there are no "true" scanlines, I say this because this is still a "high" resolution monitor, with a horizontal scanrate of 31khz.  Old "real" monitors had a "low" resolution and a 15khz hoz scanrate.  The low scanrate of the old monitors caused the "real" scanlines to appear.  

I used Donkey Kong, because I distinctly remember the scanlines in the reddish girders on the first level.  On my 19" KDS Avitron on my computer, they wern't there.  I added them in using the software switch, and they looked reasonable, but not "exactly right".  

When I started up the WG U3100 and stood it on it's side (be careful, it's front-heavy like this!), and told FMAME32 to turn the software scanlines off and rotate clockwise, and sync to monitor refresh rate, it looked perfect.  Just like I remembered.  

When I was starting up Donkey Kong, and later several other games, I was running Windows 2000, and set it to 640x480 at 60hz.  The monitor runs Windows best like this.  I tried at 75hz, but the screen was off center, and I couldn't adjust it enough to re-center it.  I then set FMAME32 to always try to use 60hz.  This worked well.

Spy Hunter gave me hell at first.  I later found out I had to enable "sync to monitor refresh" and "wait for vsync" to even get a picture on the screen.  Something tells me I'm going to have my keyboard plugged into my MAME cabinet for a while until I get most of the games I play set up correctly.

Lastly, I had the same problem as you...  Do I pay $180 for another KDS 19" or about $330 for a WG U3100?  I took the gamble on this reasoning:

#1: A PC monitor will look too clean and focused.  The WG might be the same, because it is also a high (VGA / 31khz hoz scan) resolution monitor.  But, I've heard rumors that it looks more authentic (they are true).  

#2: A PC monitor will be hard to mount, and may overheat because of it's case.  If I remove it from it's case, it'll be dangerous to work with unless I discharge it.  The WG has no case, only a mounting frame.  It's still dangerous, but less so, because the people who make PC monitors rely on the case to protect users.  WG will most likely have more rubber / guards in place (which it does).  The mounting frame of the WG will make it easy to mount in my cabinet, and the open design will dissipate heat.

#3: A PC monitor has a degauss button that can be used at will.  The WG only auto-degausses on startup, and only after 30 minutes of rest.  I can always get a manual degaussing wand for cheap from Happs.  This doesn't matter if I use forethought as to which games I start up and I'm not rotating the thing every 5 minutes.  

#4: I got the money for either of them.  

Thus I took the gamble, got the WG and I'm very happy with it.  This weekend, I buy the plywood for the actual cabinet.  Already got a brand new Wico leaf switch joystick (another thing of beauty )

Unfortunatly, I have no access to a camera right now.  The camera at our company is currently on a road-trip with one of the engineers, and he gets back next week.  When he does, I'll definatly be taking some pictures.  Where to put them though, I don't know because I have no web space.  I could email or ICQ them though.  

If you need anything else, just say!  

[Frobozz]

Oh, I almost forgot.  I ended up ordering the WGM1931-M1GS08K.  The cheaper of the two models on their site.  ($300 US)

Also, the power cord (it takes a special 3 prong connector on the monitor end) is under the "Monitor Accessories" section I believe.  It's an extra $8.50 US

Shipping was $37.02, but I live in the US, it'll most likely be more for you.  If you order through their web page, they give you a 3% discount ($-9.26) thus, my total with shipping was $336.27 US

[Carsten Carlos]

Life could be so cruel...
I got the email-answer from Wells-Gardner concerning the shipping costs to Germay for the U3100 (Very friendly people, though).

First I thought I should shot myself, but well, I guess I'll just have to find another way.  

Frobozz, you won't guess what this costs!

Your freight cost will be $346.50 which includes insurance coverage.


I wrote them back, but I'm pretty sure that this are REALLY only the freight costs.

If anyone here has an idea where the hell I get this thing shipped from somewhere in Europe at a somehow lower rate, don't hesistate to tell me. I thought it to be about $100-$150, but this message took the rest of me.

Anyone there that can recommend other Arcade-SVGA-monitors? I never heard of these Hantarex-monitors, anyone could tell me more? Although I'd like it to have a real origin US-monitor. (As Atari-fan, this would be most authentic  )

[MKL]

HappControls do sell WG monitors (including the one you want) and they have a European branch in UK. Shipping from there should be a bit less horrendous, methinks...

[Zipper]

Take a look at the Hantarex Polo 19" SVGA monitor. I got mine for

[Carsten Carlos]

Hi Zipper! Thank you very much for offering help!

The pdf-document was pretty interesting - many measurement and technical details

Have you got a photo of your monitor in action? Maybe only a detail, just to see it in action? You could also email me, doesn't matter what size.
Have you ever tried to install it vertical? I'd like to get it rotable, and that's the second reason (first I'd like to have an original "scanline look") I'd prefer using a professional monitor instead of a PC-one.

Last but not least how long are the VGA-cable and the cable from the remote control? I don't need exact measurements on this one, but as I'm still in construction with my cabinet, at this point I could still change nearly everything in my design.

Many thanx in advance!
Carsten

[Lilwolf]

Consider going with a SVid TV (or pal or scart if your in the UK... something other then US composite)

http://www.xiaou2.homestead.com/turbo.html

to see the outcome.  Then you will have access to Windows without using a super old video card.

The price of the TV should be about the same as the shipping for the ArcadeMonitor and you wont have to worry about configuration and blowing the arcade monitor because of the wrong refresh rate

[Carsten Carlos]

Hi Lilwolf!

Well, I guess I'll hook a TV (got a Sony 21" left) on my PC to just test how it feels. But i wouldn't like to make a TV rotable, doing this with an industrie-style monitor sounds much more smoothly.

I saw the photos on your homepage before - very helpful, thanks to that. I knew about the effect, but it's pretty emberassing to see the differences at the woods located in Spyhunter!

Perfect would be another photo comparing with a Arcade-like SVGA-monitor.

As it is a SVGA-monitor with a similar big dotspace as an arcademonitor, you get the benefits of an arcademonitor and plus it's very easy hooking it up to a PC via the normal VGA-port.
So blowing the monitor wouldn't be a problem here.

I hope anyone could send or show me photos of Arcade-style SVGA-monitors in action, unfortunately I won't find someone hear in Germany where I can simply have a look at the real thing.

[Zapper]

Frobozz, thanks for the U3100 info. I'm planning to buy one also. The two different versions is news to me. Happs lists the one on their site as a universal mount, it's the M2TS26H version priced at $463 :o. Maybe just the M1GS08K version is horizontal mount only. Can you post some pics of your monitor in action?

[Frobozz]

I don't know.  I called WG twice, got two different people, just to confirm it.   Both told me the same story about the difference in tube grade.  Both told me they only had horizontal mounts.  

The one guy I spoke to thought for sure there was a model with a universal, but after being on the phone with him for a good amount of time, he confirmed they no longer come in universals.  

Maybe Happs has an older stockpile, or their web page hasn't been updated.  Dunno.

Man Carsten Carlos, that sucks!!  I can't BELIEVE the shipping costs!  

[Carsten Carlos]

Yep, THAT freight-costs are really a killer!

I saw the universal-mounts at Happ, too. They simply forgot to update this, I guess. If you add the U3100 to your shopping-cart, it somehow changes in a horizontal.
They are rather expensive at this at Happ, compared to the WellsGardner-side. I asked Happ-europe for freight-costs about this, well, we'll see, but I'm not that hopeful.

Oh, Frobozz, when you ever get hold of that digicam, I have always saved some email-space for you

[Frobozz]

Ugg, still waiting on it.  Hopefully next week sometime.  I apologize because for one day last week, the guy who has been using it was in, but I forgot to get it from him.  

It would be a good thing too, because I have never seen any pictures online showing off the "scanlines" and picture quality of these things.  I hope they come out.

Heh, I bribed my sister's boyfriend today (a professional carpenter and cabinet maker) to help me with my project (I sold him a very nice rifle I had for very very cheap  As a bonus, because of his profession, he gets a severe discount on all building materials, and has a nice heated workshop to work in (especially important since it's winter over here with snow on the ground).

[Carsten Carlos]

Today I got an answer from Happ Europe - they ship the U3100 with $47 freight costs - we are getting better!

On the other hand, Happ only has the more expensive U3100 WGM1931-M2TS26H.
Frobozz, you said that it is a higher grade chassis/tube, anyone here could explain me what I have to expect?

Anyway, all I want is that it shall look like an old arcade-monitor, somehow I fear that this more expensive-monitor might have less "scanlines"-effect?

Thanx to Zipper, I got this detail-pictures of the Hantarex - sorry, but this picture is far to perfect for me ;-)

If someone got pics of both types from the U3100, especially the more expensive one that Happ sells, I'd be very happy!

[Frobozz]

I understand your concern.  I was the same way.  I could have gotten either, but my line of thought was:

Arcade machines had cruddy monitors, the "higher quality" one might not have the effect I'm looking for.  

Unfortunatly, I STILL don't have access to a camera.  Apparently, the guy who is using it will be out all week.  

BUT, I have a friend who has one.  I'll see if I can have him bring it over tonight.  It's a cheap one, not like the nice Nikon we got at the office, but it'll hopefully show something.  

Now, on the positive side, both monitors show the same dot pitch and statistics on WG's page, so their screens may be identical.  The extra cash may only be for extra "quality control".  

It would be nice to have a "Home Arcade - Monitor Comparison Website" set up somewhere.  Because of all these rare monitors people like us use, it would be nice to have a site with close-up screen pictures for vector games, horizontal games (older and newer), vertical games (older and newer) and windows desktops.  Also, mounting brackets, dimensional data (for cabinet planning), and gaussian effect due to rotation (some monitors are getter than others.  My U3100 is terrible compared to my KDS Avitron on my PC.  I'll definatly be buying an exernal degaussing wand.)

Heck, ArcadeControls would probably host the info if somebody just compiled it.  

[Zipper]

That would be a really interesting site should someone decide to host and build it.
The problems would be -

• The resolutions on digital cameras vary, so even the clearest monitor can look bad with the wrong camera resolution / lighting.
• Different video cards produce different results.
• If T.V.s are included, then you could send video by a few different methods too

As long as people submitting photos say what video output method / card / camera resolution they were using, then the information would be very useful!

It does stand to reason though - that if you want a true arcade look - then get a true arcade monitor.

[Frobozz]

Yea, I thought long and hard about that, but in the end, I reasoned that:

1)  I didn't want to dink around with DOS, which in my book is a "dead" operating system.  

2) I didn't want to have some crazy sequence of powering up my cabinet, or have to solder togeather some funky circuit to let the monitor know the video card is now in the right mode for it.  

I suppose a true arcade monitor is the only way to go, but when I got my U3100, I was willing to live with a compromise.  When I got it, I was so impressed, I now consider it the "best of both worlds".  Side-by-side with a real arcade monitor running the same game, I'll probably notice the difference, but I'm not that much of a videophile and I don't believe it's worth the hassles mentioned above.  

[Lilwolf]

Quick note.  Not my pictures!  They have been going around here for a bit.  Great for showing the differences.


and to compair two different screens, as long as the digital camera is decent, and you use the same one on both, it should be fine.  Not perfect, but they should both be off about the same.

I want to see someone with both an ArcadeCRT and SVid setup and take pictures.  

[Carsten Carlos]

Of course, different digicams would show different colors, sharpness and so on. But it would help either if the photos are so close that you can see how the scanlines-effect is provided.

Guess what, I have found a third possibility where I may get a WellsGardner! It's not sure if they have some left, but when I'm lucky I could get one from the Netherlands, which is nearer then the UK, and also there isn't so much water between
I hope tomorrow I get the callback from them, they don't sell WellsGardner furthermore, but still have some in stock. So wish me all luck!

When I'll get ever through to this, I'll like to make some pictures. Anyway, I'll try the TV, but you'll never see me make a TV rotable, also I hate to adjust picturesize on TV, there are some tools around that make the Geforce-S-Video-output somehow bigger, but all at all it never works perfectly.

[Frobozz]

OK!  I FINALLY got some pictures of my WG U3100's display.  

I got 9 of them, each about 800K High-res JPEGs (6.8meg all together).  Problem is, I have no web-space to put them.  

How can I get them to you Carsten?  Got a mailbox big enough?  I really don't want to shrink them down if I don't have to.

[Carsten Carlos]

Hi Frobozz!

:)Glad to here that! I have a (nearly) unlimited mailbox for this pictures, but please use the following email-adress: Carlos@Mittelalterlicher-Markt.de
Better copy&paste, it isn't so easy to type this when you are not familiar with german ;-)

I like big pictures, so don't shrink them, quality is always a good thing! I'm still working on it, but you don't mind if I take some of them on my arcade-section of my homepage? This section is still to build, but as soon as I make progress and have something to show, I would like to show the world outthere what this stuff is all about. I also would like to make some comparisons TV->WG, so this would be very handy!

My Netherlands-dealer seems to be in easter-vacation, I still know they have TWO and they would most likely sell me both of them. Unfortunately I'm only waiting for the phone-call which price I've to pay. But I'm pretty sure I'll take them (if the price is really good both of them), at least when they are half so good as you mentioned!  

So bomb my mailbox, I once receiver 12MB and that worked

Many thanx!

[Carsten Carlos]

Oh, better put them in different mails, some providers cut emails that are to big. Maybe 3 pics per mail, guess that should work.

[Lilwolf]

If while your taking pictures take some close up pictures of spy hunter (similar to these) http://www.xiaou2.homestead.com/turbo.html for comparisons.

sure I know they wont be exactly the same with different digital camers.  but it should give me an idea.

[Lilwolf]

btw, if you send them to me, I might be able to put them up for a few weeks.  Trouble is my office easy access website is down for a bit.  But I have access to other websites for smaller images.

[Frobozz]

If while your taking pictures take some close up pictures of spy hunter

Damn, I'm sorry dude.  I don't have the camera anymore.  See, the NICE camera I have access to (Nikon 950) is a work camera, and it's being borrowed by an engineer who's basically been living offsite the last couple weeks (business trip from hell).  He brought it in last Thursday to dump the pics off of it, but I couldn't borrow it for Easter break because he had to leave again next week (and thus I wouldn't have a chance to get it back to him).

Last night, I was visiting a friend's house, and he has this cheapie Canon 3 mpixel camera (nothing in the way of real optics, like the Nikon).  He only had an 8 meg card though.  Well, his wife needed a Windows 98 disk, so I ran back home to get it, taking the camera with me.  I snapped off 9 pictures (filling the card), returned to his house, unloaded the pics and returned the camera.  

Because of their work schedule, I don't know when I'll be seeing them again

I will eventually get some Spy Hunter pics for you though, as well as some external shots of the monitor; which I'll bring into Photoshop and add "dimensions" so people know how big the thing is for building mounts.

I'm emailing Carsten Carlos the pics now in 9 seperate emails.

Better copy&paste, it isn't so easy to type this when you are not familiar with german  

Ich habe von Deutsch in der Schule vier Jahre gehabt.  Buchstabieren ist kein Problem.  Es ist leichter als englisch!

[Carsten Carlos]

Thanx, Frobozz, all pictures made it nice the way through, nothing broken, all in clear shape ;-)

And the vertical "brick-work" know came out very clear to me. Good show of Blinky, the thumnail-preview of XP showed the effect even easier then the big one

I never played Vampire Savior 2, wow, this pictures came out nice. I must try that game!
The last time I've seen Little Red Riding Hood in a game was in Knights of Xentar, there she looked much lovelier, might have been 'cause she didn't wear an Uzi, oh well, she didn't wear that much anyway on this japanese role-playing game. (Ui, shut your mouth, you stupid ***, you are going to get banned )
I really wonder what the Gebr

[Carsten Carlos]

@Lilwolf - I'll try to set them up in a few days on a preliminary homepage, so you can easily download them, and they won't get stuck in your mailbox. I keep you informed when I'm ready!