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Should we submit logo concepts or complete designs?

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Frostillicus:
Usually a logo is decided upon first, and then you make a separate larger design for t-shirts/ads/etc which incorporates the logo.  What do you think about deciding on a logo first?  Too complicated?

 

Howard_Casto:
I would suggest making it farily complete as people can't tell what you see in your head by just a rough design.

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