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BYOFE - *another* frontend?
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Howard_Casto:

--- Quote from: screaming on September 13, 2006, 02:25:12 pm ---my (our) solution will always be better than DumbA.exe, no matter how high you think your pedestal is.

--- End quote ---

Huh?

What does the wizard have to do with anything?

Going down your list:

1.  Check
2.  Check
3.  Check
4.  Not Check
5.  Check

I didn't say it is exactly the same but this is pretty much the exact framework around which dk is based.  Most fes are based this way actually which is why I'm pointing it out.  I wouldn't have said a word except for the fact that you went into this big speech in that other thread about how none of the fes are user friendly and the course of action you've laid out isn't any different for the others already available.  

I think you are confused as you who is on the pedestal.  Your goal seems to be to make things more user-friendly but if those are your methods then you could only get things marginaly better at best in that department.  That is unless you have a TON of time to dedicate to this, like several hours a day.  By default things can't be done automatically if you are going to support multiple-emulators.  You can make plugins like youki does, or wrappers like I do but with the former the user has to wait for the developer to make a plugin for every single thing imaginable and not only that keep them updated and with the latter specialized configuration is required.  Mutiple emulators in the same gamelist requires some sort of filtering system like dk uses.  Even if you make it butt-easy the average user will never catch on unless you keep it really simple and in that case you've crippled the power of your filters and thus there really isn't any reason to do it.  Tree's are not easy to build automagically.  I just finished a new configuration program for dk that automatically makes the lists for each genre complete with subtree's navigation, ect....  Even with the catver.ini as a guide there was a lot of special case stuff that had to be done based on mame's crazy cats.  Any other trees would have to be manually and even with a easy to use helper app it'll confuse the heck out of users.

See the thing is you can't have it both ways.  You can try to have a nice balance, but the more features you add, the more configuration is needed, and even if you make it super easy people will always complain that it could be easier.

I wish you luck man, but you seem to be re-inventing the wheel yet again.  If that makes you mad then don't start posting a bunch of crap in this thread about how I am wrong.  Prove me wrong by actually doing it.    :)
screaming:

--- Quote from: Howard_Casto on September 13, 2006, 02:49:20 pm ---
--- Quote from: screaming on September 13, 2006, 02:25:12 pm ---my (our) solution will always be better than DumbA.exe, no matter how high you think your pedestal is.

--- End quote ---

Huh?

 :blah:


--- End quote ---

  If you would like me to reiterate why your FE (and everyone else's) doesn't meet my criteria, please start a new thread or ask me in one of the already existing threads on the subject.  I would like to keep this thread relevant to BYOFE.
screaming:
Edit:  Weird.. I edited this message and then came back to it just now (an hour later) and my changes seem to be gone! hmm.. Let's se if I can remember what they were.

This isn't a final list, by any means, it's just a starting point.

BYOFE has very close to the framework needed for most of this stuff and implementing these features should be relatively easy (at least I had all these in mind while I was programming it back 6+ months ago).

Implementing these features in any FE is no easy task, especially one that is just starting out like BYOFE. It will be much more productive if we all got together to build it instead of just one person.  If you have any interest in helping out, please PM me!  You've seen the code, you know what I've got. 

Also, if you have any opinions on this list I'll be happy to hear constructive thoughts.  Are there features you like/dislike?  Maybe some that are more useful than others?  Do you have any wishes that are not on this list?


BYOFE planned features
-----------------------------------------
- Main program
  - The list scrolling should be capable of "MAMEWAH speeds". You know, fast.
  - 3D cabinet models, in addition to standard artwork.
  - WAV, MP3 support
  - Speech engine for on-the-fly announcements: "Get ready for... MOON PATROL!"
  - 3D support, for fancy layouts like wheels.
  - ROBUST gamelist filtering. Having "easy" gamelist filtering is secondary, but no matter what the average user will have basic needs, and game list filtering should be easy for these people, at least.
  - Should be knowledgeable in that it knows about the majority of the popular emulators out there and compensate for their lack of cabinet-friendlyness. Automatic "exit key" always exits the emulator, for example. No need for wrappers.
  - Knowledge of controls.dat project, including integrated layout viewer.
  - Have LED support.
  - Have a "plugin" architecture, as to remain extensible. Possibilities include a python/javascript/ruby/vbscript interpreter or compiled plugins that use BYOFE's API. Plugins could be used for things like fancy lighting, internet communication (updating a "now playing" tag, for example), etc.
  - Animated layouts
  - Layouts should have the capability to be mouse driven (for touchscreens).
  - MNG, animated GIF support
  - Low-res monitor support
  - Integrated pause feature. If I press the pause key, I want certain features (cp layout, custom message, etc) to be available no matter which emulator I'm running. This is a toughy. I don't know how this would work globally and might be restricted to certain emulators.
  - Should be fairly self contained. MAME is the most popular emulator around here so it should be the most supported (incidentally, it's the one that changes the most :/). When BYOFE and DLLs are dropped inthe the MAME folder, it should know about this and configure itself for MAME (yes, automatically).
 
- Config program
  - Should be internet enabled. I want to download config files, layouts, and plugins on the fly without leaving the config program.
  - Should be knowledgeable about the different popular emulators and configure for them automatically. "Daphne has seperate movie and index files? no problem!  The directory structure is in its config file."  "Oops, it looks like your daphne is a little misconfigured. BYOFE recommends __________."
  - Wizard interface to start with, with an "advanced mode" to access all the nitty gritty options.
  - Should conform to and recognize some sort of layout specifications.  The idea is that for the most part, people have thier emulators and emulator support files (cabinet shots, screen shots, etc) in 2 different "layouts". The config program should automatically recognize, and configure for these:
 
  <ROOT>
   |- emus
       |- <EMULATOR>
          |- <EMULATOR.exe>
       |- <EMULATOR>
          |- <EMULATOR.exe>
   |- artwork
       |- <EMULATOR>
          |- <ARTWORK TYPE (cabinets, marquees, etc)>
             |- <ARTWORK.jpg>
       |- <EMULATOR>
          |- <ARTWORK TYPE (cabinets, marquees, etc)>
             |- <ARTWORK.jpg>

and

  <ROOT>
    |- <EMULATOR>
        |- <EMULATOR.exe>
        |- <ARTWORK TYPE (cabinets, marquees, etc)>
            |- <ARTWORK.jpg>
    |- <EMULATOR>
        |- <EMULATOR.exe>
        |- <ARTWORK TYPE (cabinets, marquees, etc)>
            |- <ARTWORK.jpg>

youki:
I think Howard shoud integrate a  good and smart plug'in system in his DK  to make it open to other Dev. 

Because your "Dream" Fe seems very well on the paper. But even with 20 developpers working on it won't come soon. 

It is not easy to split the work on one FE   for 20 developpers... there is a big project management work.  Not all can be done in the same time.

But i 'm very curious if the project start to see the result , and i will be happy to help if i can.

Howard_Casto:

--- Quote from: youki on September 14, 2006, 02:57:05 am ---I think Howard shoud integrate a  good and smart plug'in system in his DK  to make it open to other Dev. 

Because your "Dream" Fe seems very well on the paper. But even with 20 developpers working on it won't come soon. 

It is not easy to split the work on one FE   for 20 developpers... there is a big project management work.  Not all can be done in the same time.

But i 'm very curious if the project start to see the result , and i will be happy to help if i can.



--- End quote ---

For once me and youki agree.  It's not that I don't think what you are tyring to do is a bad idea, I just don't think it can be done in the way you are describing.  I know because I've already tried it.  ;)

All of dk's configurations and the generation of lists are done externally.  I did that so that anybody that wanted to make configuration utilities could.  All dk itself does is search for roms, display artwork, and of course launch games which can be supplimented by wrappers.  All the list managment and emu configuration is externalized.  Everything in dk is completely modular.

Instead of making a fe from scratch it might be best to write stuff for existing fes.  Most work how I've described anyway. 

I know that open source sounds like a great idea, but here is what usually happens:

The main developer does all the "real" work, like list managment, rendering ect.....  The only time third parties contribute is to add a really minor thing, like adding a new artwork element, or adding support for non-mame catvers.  This stuff is helpful and all, but it's stuff that the main developer, who is more familiar with the code, probably could have added in 5 minutes. Whats more, like youki is saying the main dev is constantly working on the core and thus the changes might not even be valid by the time they are submitted.  Your users or even other developers will rarely mess with the hard stuff like configuration and list managment because, well that stuff is hard and you don't get any visible reward for your efforts.


Another thing I would like to point out is that ease of use is something you typically want to do later in the fe's life cycle.  While you are figuring out the options and the formatting of everything you'll end up killing yourself playing keep-up with all the configuration utilities.  Dk is towards the end of it's life and that is what I am concentrating on now. Lots of configuration aids.  And remember, it's been over a year since my last release.  That should tell you how much effort is involved to get it right.  ;)  Also keep in mind my aids are no where near as "automagic" as what you are proposing. 
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