Author Topic: arcade monitor problem, won't turn on on first switch (still need help) (Read 14833 times)

TheRed · « **on:** August 10, 2006, 11:35:05 am »

Ok, so here's my problem...

I flip the power switch on my arcade cabinet and everything turns on in the cab but the monitor. Then I flip it off, count to 10-15, then flip it again and it turns on and works.

Do you have any idea why this happens?

thanks!

Ken Layton · « **Reply #1 on:** August 10, 2006, 11:53:41 am »

Sounds like your monitor is due for a capkit.

TheRed · « **Reply #2 on:** August 10, 2006, 01:47:38 pm »

Quote from: Ken Layton on August 10, 2006, 11:53:41 am

Sounds like your monitor is due for a capkit.

I always thought a cap kit was for monitors with bad pictures? The picture here is perfect....once it turns on. Someone else said it could be the flyback. I don't know much about monitors at all....and couldn't even point out the flyback, lol.

Thanks for the heads up! I will toss that out there and see if people agree.

THANKS!

grantspain · « **Reply #3 on:** August 10, 2006, 02:28:25 pm »

yes its true most picture problems are caused by bad caps but also the power supply circuit of the monitor has a multitude of smoothing caps as well-it does sound like a cap fault to me as it does not come on first time(i had the same fault on a hantarex polo2 just wednesday)

TheRed · « **Reply #4 on:** August 10, 2006, 04:11:14 pm »

I don't have a manual or anything for this monitor and it seems like a b**** to get to. My monitor is a / and here's a shot of the back. How would you reccomend going about this? and fiding the right caps to switch out?

any FAQ's out there? If this is my first time, would you reccomend getting something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Arcade-game-monitor-CAP-KIT-instructions-on-cd-easy_W0QQitemZ250015551742QQihZ015QQcategoryZ13716QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

this guy is like 5 min. drive from me and I have an HSC in town. I could fix this today most likely....

Do I have to take the monitor out of the cab? I figure so, since it looks like it would be hard to get in there. It's not a nice big board like my woody or even the neo25.

Lutus · « **Reply #5 on:** August 10, 2006, 04:18:40 pm »

11th Commandment:

And God said, "Thou shalt not question Ken Layton."

TheRed · « **Reply #6 on:** August 10, 2006, 04:50:26 pm »

^^what?

TheRed · « **Reply #7 on:** August 10, 2006, 05:12:48 pm »

Anyways...

can someone tell me the best way to remove the monitor (29") from the astro city cab so I can change the caps?

Vigo · « **Reply #8 on:** August 10, 2006, 05:20:38 pm »

remove front panel, remove monitor bolts

Vigo · « **Reply #9 on:** August 10, 2006, 05:22:49 pm »

grantspain · « **Reply #10 on:** August 10, 2006, 05:58:05 pm »

that my friend is a nanoa monitor,there is a cap on the neck card(the only electrolitic)that can cause a fault where you have a working monitor but no picture-whilst the machine is on and you have no picture look at the tube neck to see if you see an orange glow(i have about 30 of these astrocity cabs)-if you have a glow from the tube then replace the cap on the neck card(i think its 22microfared at 250 volts)if not then it looks like a psu fault

TheRed · « **Reply #11 on:** August 10, 2006, 07:19:41 pm »

Quote from: grantspain on August 10, 2006, 05:58:05 pm

that my friend is a nanoa monitor,there is a cap on the neck card(the only electrolitic)that can cause a fault where you have a working monitor but no picture-whilst the machine is on and you have no picture look at the tube neck to see if you see an orange glow(i have about 30 of these astrocity cabs)-if you have a glow from the tube then replace the cap on the neck card(i think its 22microfared at 250 volts)if not then it looks like a psu fault

(EDIT: can't forget....THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP!!)

here's a ton of pics..

with monitor on and cab on..

front

flash

no flash

monitor off and cab on

front

no flash

reaching my hand in the back...

flash

no flash

I don't see any orange at all....am I taking pictures of the right spot?

TheRed · « **Reply #12 on:** August 10, 2006, 07:43:36 pm »

oh, and I couldn't find a monitor board that looked exactly like mine...some that looked close, but not exact.

Kevin Mullins · « **Reply #13 on:** August 10, 2006, 07:55:00 pm »

Looks like you have one of these to me....http://www.jomac.net.au/Nanao%20MS8-29FSG.JPG (Which is a 29" model.) Nanao-MS8-29FSG (15-25K dual resolution)

The Ebay link you pointed out was just for "instructions" and does NOT include parts.
Unless you really want those instructions of course. And from the looks of all those "brown" caps, I would also suggest doing a cap kit.

The neck glow area grantspain mentioned is here in this area:

TheRed · « **Reply #14 on:** August 11, 2006, 12:11:18 am »

that's what I thought too....but if you look at the boards, they are slightly different.

his

mine

You can see where mine is missing the silver things coming off of that little board. Also, if you look at my second picture, it has different connectors in the middle.

don't know if those things make a huge difference, but I just don't want to buy the wrong cap kit.

Kevin Mullins · « **Reply #15 on:** August 11, 2006, 01:14:43 am »

Ahhh..... close enough .....

Can you get any numbers off the main chassis near the name NANAO if there's one on it?
Probably towards the front where it's hard to get to...of course.

TheRed · « **Reply #16 on:** August 11, 2006, 02:04:11 am »

I saw some numbers....

here goes..

printed in white on the big board on the monitor...

05T009... (it goes under a plastic clip, lol)

There is a stamp in black...

3224LG-13

On the little board on the back of the monitor...

P37N0

On the back of the little board that didn't have the little silver things on it from the picture I posted above...

437FVL

On the other brown board standing up and turned on end...

Nanao PN-V

Those are all of the numbers I could see, lol. Besides numbers on the bigger resistors or whatever.

grantspain · « **Reply #17 on:** August 11, 2006, 01:29:25 pm »

you tend to find all manufacturer's have chassis's that maybe have the same model number but have slight moderfactions e.g hantarex polo 2 have 4 different variations for different frequency inputs-but the rule is if it looks the same then it is the same-the cap i was referring to on the neck card is a common fault on nanoa's-its worth changing that just for peace of mind(its the one right next to the neck socket)

TheRed · « **Reply #18 on:** August 11, 2006, 02:30:35 pm »

Quote from: grantspain on August 11, 2006, 01:29:25 pm

you tend to find all manufacturer's have chassis's that maybe have the same model number but have slight moderfactions e.g hantarex polo 2 have 4 different variations for different frequency inputs-but the rule is if it looks the same then it is the same-the cap i was referring to on the neck card is a common fault on nanoa's-its worth changing that just for peace of mind(its the one right next to the neck socket)

Ok, cool.

So it's a Nanao-MS8-29FSG (15-25K dual resolution).......right?

What's the best way to do this?

My thinking...put the cab on it's back, get a friend, lift the monitor out and set it on (what?wood?), then use a desoldering tool and take out the cap, go to hsc and get a new one, and put it back in.

Do I have to do anything else? discharge the monitor? Never done that before. Any other precautions or pointers?

grantspain · « **Reply #19 on:** August 11, 2006, 04:25:32 pm »

no,take the back door off(switch the machine off) and carefully remove the neck card from the tube by pulling very gently backwards,unsolder the cap,get a new one and then replace(remember + and - have to be correct,always make a note of how the cap comes out,take a good photo you will see a - mark on the negative).no need to discharge its noit a big job(2 mins tops)

Kevin Mullins · « **Reply #20 on:** August 11, 2006, 04:42:08 pm »

http://www.instantarcade.com/discharge.php
http://www.stickycarpet.com/pinx/md.html
http://www.arcadegames.net/sightsound/discharge.ppt (power point presentation)

PLEASE READ !!
(wouldn't want something happening like that other poor fella)

Just kidding...If you just start with the neckboard cap, then I personally would just leave it in there, no discharge, pull the neckboard off the tube and work on it through the hole in the back. (but that's just me)
You will defineately want to fully discharge the monitor if you are planning on doing a full cap kit which generally means pulling the chassis completely out of the frame.

The model number would then be pretty much NANAO MS8-29 at the least.
The FSG may be just the "revision" type thing like grantspain was explaining. I'm not real certain on the designation system those use.

(already mentioned once)
Before you pull ANY caps off the board, look at the way it was orientated. There is a positive and negative side to the caps. Striped side is negative usually. Either way, double check so that you don't put one in backwards.

I'm not sure who would carry a complete cap kit for that one without having to write each and every cap you need for it and putting a list together.

TheRed · « **Reply #21 on:** August 11, 2006, 05:11:41 pm »

Thanks, both of you!!!

I called a repair guy and he said he had to take all the boards out, take them to his shop, and then bring them back and put them in. That was to change every cap on the board, lol. But, like I said, I don't know why I would need all of them switched if the picture is beautiful. I am going to try this one cap. I am kinda nervous about taking the back off of the neck...lol.

wish me luck

TheRed · « **Reply #22 on:** August 11, 2006, 05:26:55 pm »

ok, so I got it off fine

now which one is it? they are all pretty close to the neck...

Are all astro city cabs this dirty? lol

grantspain · « **Reply #23 on:** August 11, 2006, 05:56:16 pm »

there is only one electrolitic cap on that board,it is the black cylindrical component that is about 3 cms high (it has the black wire crossing over it)and on its side it will say something like 22uf 250v also it will have a - mark,when you remove it you may find a leakage residue underneath

Kevin Mullins · « **Reply #24 on:** August 11, 2006, 07:00:51 pm »

That's typical dirty for most monitors in any cabinet if not dusted out once in awhile.

TheRed · « **Reply #25 on:** August 11, 2006, 07:33:45 pm »

Quote from: grantspain on August 11, 2006, 05:56:16 pm

there is only one electrolitic cap on that board,it is the black cylindrical component that is about 3 cms high (it has the black wire crossing over it)and on its side it will say something like 22uf 250v also it will have a - mark,when you remove it you may find a leakage residue underneath

Thanks!! I hope I am doing this right. I took out the item circled below and went to my parts store. It's a 10uf 250v Electrolitic Cap, and they only had the 10uf in electrolitic in 10uf 350v

Guess I am going to have to try and find them online. It was only $.65 too

TheRed · « **Reply #26 on:** August 11, 2006, 07:57:01 pm »

I just ordered this:

10uF 250V RADIAL MINI ELECTROLYTIC CAP

If I took out the right part, and ordered the right part.....I should know if it works or I broke anything sometime late next week

Is it bad to leave this out of the cab if it's not plugged in or anything?

SirPeale · « **Reply #27 on:** August 11, 2006, 08:53:56 pm »

Jeeze...someone should have explained the rules of electrolytic caps to you. Hope you can cancel your order. Likely you're going to need more than just this one cap.

When you change out a cap, you want to keep the uf rating the same, but you can either keep the voltage the same...OR *upgrade* it. You don't want to go lower.

For example, that cap you had in your hands would have been fine, since it was 10uf @ 350V, and you wanted to replace one 10uf @ 250V. A cap 10uf @ 100V would *not* have been adequate.

TheRed · « **Reply #28 on:** August 11, 2006, 09:24:36 pm »

Quote from: Peale on August 11, 2006, 08:53:56 pm

Jeeze...someone should have explained the rules of electrolytic caps to you. Hope you can cancel your order. Likely you're going to need more than just this one cap.

When you change out a cap, you want to keep the uf rating the same, but you can either keep the voltage the same...OR *upgrade* it. You don't want to go lower.

For example, that cap you had in your hands would have been fine, since it was 10uf @ 350V, and you wanted to replace one 10uf @ 250V. A cap 10uf @ 100V would *not* have been adequate.

Damn, that sucks! I can go in the morning and get the other one, then put it in at night. I obviously don't know anything about electronics really....so thank you for the explenation.

I just figured they needed to be the same. How high is too high? What if it was 10uf 1000v or something. Would that still work just fine?

I have the right one coming, so as long as leaving it out for a week won't do any harm, I will just put back what I took out.

Kevin Mullins · « **Reply #29 on:** August 12, 2006, 01:08:56 am »

Damn... yeah, we all dropped the ball on that one for ya.
I'm so used to having to order EVERYTHING because there are no local places that are worth a darn for actually having anything whatsoever in stock. (all of two to choose from and they both suck)

Thanks Peale for catching that.

Like he mentioned, the "uf" is the what needs to match exactly.
That is what determines how it actually functions in the circuit.

The "voltage" rating is more or less the "maximum" voltage in which it can stand before it blows up. So to have that higher is ok as long as the cap still fits where you want it to go.
It's very common to see cap kits with caps that are replaced with higher voltage ratings depending on the availability of the original, but the uf will always be the same.

TheRed · « **Reply #30 on:** August 12, 2006, 02:09:02 am »

man, no worries. you guys have helped me a lot on this. I can grab it tomarrow. I figure you're just used to people knowing the basics. I'm new..

but I am learning.

grantspain · « **Reply #31 on:** August 12, 2006, 12:38:59 pm »

just want too say that i have probably 40 of these chassis in our operation,the only faults i have had on these are the cap on the neck board,the width transistor and dry joints and they are probably 10-15 years old(not bad eh)-there is no rule that you have to change all the caps,its just by changing all the caps you can prevent further problems later on.

peale is perfectly correct about the ratings.just remember to get the cap back in the correct way round
good luck

TheRed · « **Reply #32 on:** August 12, 2006, 02:01:07 pm »

thanks! Looks like I will be waiting until next week after all. The cap they had was a regular 10uf 350v and didn't say Electrolitic on the box. The only two they had that said that were 10uf 16v and 10uf 100v which are both too small. Unless there's some other rule about the "elctrolitic" then I will be checking the mail late next week for it.

THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO'S HELPED ME!!!!!!!!!

I will update when I get the part.

as far as the right end...I just remember that the long end was further away from me than the short end. If thats not enough, I have the cap still and many pictures like you guys said.

Kevin Mullins · « **Reply #33 on:** August 12, 2006, 02:39:53 pm »

If the one they had in stock even looked like a "tiny tin can" like the one you are replacing...then it's an electrolytic. All other types of capacitors are totally different in shape and appearance. (like the little brown and bright blue ones on the neckboard you see)

As far as putting them in backwards..... think of them as if they were a battery....you wouldn't want to put it in backwards because they do have an actual positive and negative side to them. (and they will pop if you do put them in backwards)

Most chassis are marked, just like yours is. (I have seen these markings be wrong, but not often so don't sweat that) I can see in the pic that yours is correct to the way it came out. So the stripe or negative mark on the cap matches the little white block marking on the chassis. Simple enough eh?

TheRed · « **Reply #34 on:** August 12, 2006, 11:06:32 pm »

So, even thought the box didn't say electrolitic, and others did, if it's 10uf and 350v and shaped the same.....it will work?

I just want to make sure....as I really don't want to blow this. Man, do I feel like a dope walking past the right one...not once, but twice

The store opens again monday...so I will take a picture and see if you guys think they look close enough.

thanks again!!!!

Kevin Mullins · « **Reply #35 on:** August 13, 2006, 11:17:37 am »

Quote from: TheRed on August 12, 2006, 11:06:32 pm

I just want to make sure....as I really don't want to blow this. Man, do I feel like a dope walking past the right one...not once, but twice

I know what you mean.....I've done it.
And I live 25 miles from no-where, so running back and forth is a pain sometimes.
But it would defineately be easier to tell if we actually saw it.

TheRed · « **Reply #36 on:** August 13, 2006, 12:34:45 pm »

well, it's $.65 so I can get it and if it's wrong, I can just toss it in my parts box.

The piece was grey and black and shapped pretty much the same with the indentation running close to the bottom edge all the way around the part....then one little pin being longer than the other on the bottom. Anyways, I'll just buy it to show you. Even if I use the other parts, at least doing these types of things help me learn. My parts shop is about 10 minutes away, so it's not that bad. It's a great place too....although I kinda stick to the back room, but I am VERY lucky to have an HSC in town....

back room shots:

I could hang out back there ofr HOURS! My girl hates going there though, lol!

TheRed · « **Reply #37 on:** August 17, 2006, 08:11:04 pm »

So, I swapped out the cap on the board on the neck, and it's still having the same problem.

Anything else that could be causing this problem? I did notice that every once in a while the edge of the screen gets a little wavey...just for a second and mostly about a minute after the monitor has been on.

would you suggest a full cap kit? or could it be something major like the flyback?

ideas?

grantspain · « **Reply #38 on:** August 18, 2006, 12:11:35 pm »

i don't think its your flyback they tend to fail completly,i would try a full cap kit-the reason being it starts sometimes,also please look for bad solder joints

Kevin Mullins · « **Reply #39 on:** August 18, 2006, 03:01:14 pm »

I agree with grantspain... a flyback is generally either good or bad, not in between.
If it were bad, your monitor would be totally dead.

I'm thinking along the lines of a bad solder joint that is flaky.

But just out of shear curiosity.....
Next time you turn the cab on and only the cab comes on, not the monitor, leave it on just like that and check the voltage going TO the monitor. (AC voltage)

TheRed · « **Reply #40 on:** August 18, 2006, 08:19:27 pm »

Thanks! Will get the cap kit done.

what should it register on the multimeter? where should I take it from?

grantspain · « **Reply #41 on:** August 19, 2006, 04:03:54 pm »

set your meter to a/c voltage and place each probe on each of the monitor input wires,you should get 110v a/c
like i said before these chassis are very old and prone to bad solder joints,you are gonna have to remove the chassis i'm afraid and take a good look-if you really feel that you are not confident at doing this then maybe someone on this forum who resides close to you can help you out,i'm afraid i live in spain so it may be a bit far to travel but if i lived close to anyone on this forum i would be more than happy to assist

grantspain · « **Reply #42 on:** August 19, 2006, 04:10:37 pm »

hang on!does your game play blind when the screen don't come on?

TheRed · « **Reply #43 on:** August 19, 2006, 07:23:30 pm »

Quote from: grantspain on August 19, 2006, 04:10:37 pm

hang on!does your game play blind when the screen don't come on?

Yeah, everything else is working just fine. I hear the game going through and coin inserts work etc. Basically everything but a picture.

I stuck the two probles in the back of the molex on the two outputs that go to the monitor from the psu and got about 113v on average....

Is it supposed to be exactly 110v?

Kevin Mullins · « **Reply #44 on:** August 19, 2006, 11:03:07 pm »

Quote from: TheRed on August 19, 2006, 07:23:30 pm

I stuck the two probles in the back of the molex on the two outputs that go to the monitor from the psu and got about 113v on average....

113v is fine.... AC will fluctuate a little.... no exact science there.

And this is what you got when everything except the monitor was on?
Do you get this reading all the way up the monitor chassis as well? (where it's soldered or connects straight to the chassis)

I was just trying to elimate anything dumb like a flaky fuse or connector or anything like that.
But you may want to wiggle the video input connector a little while it's doing that just to see if that effects it.
I personally would also push down lightly on different areas of the chassis to see if that effects it. (bad solder joints)

Lutus · « **Reply #45 on:** August 20, 2006, 02:38:18 pm »

I have a digdug machine that will "play blind". I am curious what grantspain has to say about this.

grantspain · « **Reply #46 on:** August 20, 2006, 04:04:02 pm »

playing blind is an extremely quick way for engineers to fault find,basically 3 main faults occur on video games-monitor/power supply/game board(then you have minor faults like switch inputs/credit problems etc)-so first thing to do;switch power on and insert coin/press service credit switch-do you get sounds then that proves your psu and game board are fine therefore your fault can be traced to the monitor or its input voltage
if you get no sound/no monitor meter the psu voltages,if they all correct then you have a game board fault-another handy tip is if you have no picture then turn up the screen volts on the flyback to see if you get a blank raster,that proves the fault lies on the psu or game board
these are processes that take seconds to perform and save you hours of back tracking-this is fault diagnosis in its essence( a process of elimination)
once you have diagnosed the faulty area then its just a case of repair/replacement-you are talking minutes not days

TheRed · « **Reply #47 on:** August 27, 2006, 12:28:59 am »

well, it looks like the guy who sold me this has left me hanging. I am ok with taking the caps out and replacing them, but I am really worried about taking off the board to do it.

Does anyone know of any NORTH BAY AREA members that might be willing to come by and help me get it off...and maybe show me how I will have to put it back on?

TheRed · « **Reply #48 on:** August 27, 2006, 10:48:21 am »

I am thinking about trying the full cap kit myself.....BUT...

.... I just noticed something on the little pcb that connects to the neck. There's somesolders on the bottom that have what looks like rust around the solder spot. Is this the leaking I have been hearing about? Which means what exactly?

Since it still works, I can save it?

I can still clean that up when I swap caps?

I need to get on this ASAP! before it's too late?

I should call the coin op guy NOW to fix it?

It's already too late?

I can get some pictures, but super close ups always turn out blurry with this cam.

TheRed · « **Reply #49 on:** August 27, 2006, 10:56:31 am »

the top one has another right above it that has that stuff to and are both coming off of a plastic white rectangle. The other one looks to me below a connector that has one black wire coming out of it and going to the tupe. Would these be causing this problem? What can I do about it?

TheRed · « **Reply #50 on:** August 27, 2006, 11:18:25 am »

Just checked and all 3 or 4 of those little boxes have that rust looking stuff under them and they have these numbers on them.

BSR5.......5.6k (then the upside down horse shoe looking thing) J

KOA........394

What are these? Should I take them off and try and see if my parts store has them? I think I have seen things like these there before.

Any help would be appreciated...AS USUAL

THANKS GUYS!!!!

SirPeale · « **Reply #51 on:** August 27, 2006, 01:26:07 pm »

Looks like flux. That's ok.

Kevin Mullins · « **Reply #52 on:** August 27, 2006, 02:08:10 pm »

Agreed.... I'd bet if you put the soldering iron to it, that it will bubble up and come right off along with the solder.

TheRed · « **Reply #53 on:** August 27, 2006, 03:50:55 pm »

OK, thanks! I was worried

No if I can just get the balls to discharge the monitor and pull this thing out of the cab.

ANY ADVICE ON DISCONNECTING THE MAIN WIRES?

what should I take apart?

Do I pull the whole thing out, set it down on the wood I laid out, and then just unscrew the board? and go from there?

The part I am worried about is....

1: discharging

2: Disconnecting the wires that come off of the tube to the board

advice?

Once I get the monitor out and the board off....I should be ok from there to swap everything in and out.

TheRed · « **Reply #54 on:** September 03, 2006, 09:21:13 pm »

Ok, I opened everything up, discharged the monitor, took off the chassis, took it down to HSC, looked over it and saw one cap was leaking. I got that cap and replaced it. Put everything back together and still have the same problem. I am just glad it worked when I hooked it back up, lol.

Anyways, I guess the next step is just to replace them all. I am kinda proud of myself though anyways,lol...I can now take apart monitors and replace caps. Nice skill to have.

wanted to say thanks to everyone for all of the help!

Only real problem I ran into and couldn't get passed was getting the damn board out of that black plastic thing. I just took out every screw I could see, including the one in the middle, but it wouldn't budge.

z28dan · « **Reply #55 on:** November 05, 2009, 09:42:38 pm »

Did this ever get resolved? I've got an LA riders with the same issue. It had a cap kit in 2007 so I doubt it needs it again.
Turn the game on at first and no picture, let it warm up, still no picture.
turn it off and back on and the monitor fires right up.
Any input would be appreciated


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