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Author Topic: pentium or athlon?  (Read 5373 times)

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RunDMC

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pentium or athlon?
« on: April 02, 2002, 11:04:51 am »
Building a mame cab, want to be able to play ALL games perfectly with no soud or frame skipping.  The pentium 4 offers more GHZ for less but I also hear that the Athlons run faster/better even if they are clocked at a slower speed.  any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!!!!!! ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Lilwolf

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2002, 03:38:45 pm »
Athlon all the way.  Pents can't come close to the price / performance.. bet even that, the athlon 2.1ghz is faster then the pent 2.4 in buisness stuff (ie, int calculations) and that is whats used in emulation.

Remember that the 2.0 ghz athlon beats the pent 2.0 ghz in almost every test and costs about 1/2 as much and is optimized better for emulation....

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Jonathan_the_Red

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2002, 04:35:22 pm »
I concur. "Intel inside" is just so 1990s. I used to be Intel all the way until I was lucky enough to win an Athlon XP at an AMD event and actually tried it out. Ever since then, all the systems I've built have been Athlons. My MAME cab has an Athlon XP 1700+ and runs everything (including the much-feared Police Trainer) at a silky smooth 60FPS. Total cost of system: just over $300.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Andrew Halford

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2002, 01:00:16 am »
sorry for nitpicking but the Athlon xp 2000 is not 2ghz. it performance is equal to an old athlon at 2ghz but is only actually at 1.7ghz or something like that. Kind of helps to prove Lilwolf's point though ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

TheManuel

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This one's getting kind of interesting...
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2002, 06:12:47 am »
Anyone else care to share thier experiences with Athlon and Pentium?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »
"The Manuel"

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2002, 07:21:16 am »
(Warning, long post ahead)

Athlon all the way, at least for now.  Granted, I've tried everything.  First "PC" machine was a Cyrix PR133 (it was CHEAP!), then moved to an AMD K6II-200 and noticed "Wow, Windows is crashing MUCH LESS"

Was planning on going to a first generation Athlon, but a lightning storm killed the computer a month before their release.  So, I went to the shop and got a 600mhz P3 (OEM).  This turned out to be a nightmare.  It was totally unstable, and had to be clocked to 500mhz in order to work.  I argued with them on the point, but because I removed the stupid plastic cover to examine the core for damage and mashed a plastic pin that held it on, they wouldn't exchange my CPU.  Last time I ever bought from them.  

A few months later, I shoved the thing into my girlfriend's machine and bought an Intel P3 550 (Retail BOX) on an ABit botherboard with an Intel chipset.  This ran perfectly.   I never had a problem with it.  Amazingly stable.  I'll never buy an OEM processor again.  With a retail CPU, it has a 3 yr warrenty, and heatsink included.  If it overheats, burns out, etc, the manufacturer will replace it, few if any questions asked.  

Time to upgrade, I went back with AMD because I saw they really stormed Intel's parade with the Athlon.  I wasn't dissappointed.  I got a 1.2Ghz Thunderbird on an IWill motherboard with an Ali Magik-1 chipset. At first, I had some lockups and stability problems, then I upgraded the motherboard's drivers, and all ran fine.  

I gave that machine to my sister, and now have an AMD 1700+ Palamino (XP).  I put it on an ABit KR266-RAID motherboard with a VIA 266 chipset (REALLY NICE).  Same problem as with the Iwill, but as soon as I upgraded to latest VIA drivers, it is now impervious to crashes. I run Windows 2000 Pro.  My uptime right now is three weeks.  I never shut it down.  Three weeks ago, I updated some drivers and had to reboot it.  Before that, I think it was running two weeks solid.  

Here are some pointers:

1) Always buy a Retail Box processor.  You never know if a 3rd party heatsink is crap or not.  I've bought $30 heatsinks that didn't perform as well as stock ones (The "SuperOrb" sinks come to mind) .  They have a 3 year warenty with the maker (AMD or Intel), and they only cost like $15 more at most (heck, heatsinks alone cost that much!).  If it overheats with the stock heatsink, it's replaceable by the manufacturer because THEY provided the sink!

2) Go AMD.  They're faster because they have better archetecture.  This has been proved through technical studys and performance tests.  They do more operations per-cycle than the P4s.  In fact, P4s do LESS operations per cycle than the P3s.  Tom's Hardware http://www.tomshardware.com reveals this.  Seems Intel planned on marketing "WE GOT THE GHZ!  THEREFORE WE MUST BE FASTER!!".  Thus, stupid, blind consumers who know only that one number is bigger than another, bought P4s.  

Sick of loosing market share due to a play on consumer incompetance, AMD now markets their CPUs as "####+".  It is through a speed rating system developed by a third party company.  You can read all about it on AMD's site.  

Some people buy a car with a V6 engine because they think it's fast because it's bigger and has more displacement, then they get creamed by a little Japanese car with a twin-turbo four cylinder with 1/3rd less displacement but has 80 more horsepower than the V6.  This is the same analysis of Intel vs. AMD.

AMD's are also cheaper.  They also don't rape customers as hard for thier high end stuff like Intel still does.  They still charge a lot for their top end stuff though, so buy a CPU about 2 or 3 grades down from the current "top" for the best bang for the buck.  

If cash isn't a factor, go Intel.  Yup, go Intel. because the fastest P4's are still the fastest PC CPUs in the world, if only by a tiny bit.  Sure you want to spend the extra $400 for that extra smidgen of performance?  If you wern't a smart shopper, you wouldn't be posting here with your question, now would you?  ;)


(message too long, cutting it in two  :P  )
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Frobozz

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2002, 07:22:10 am »

3) If you go AMD, be VERY CAREFUL when mounting the heat sink!  I can't stress this enough!  Make SURE, you don't rock the sink back and forth across the little ceramic core!  You WILL crack it on the edges!  I've done this!  (Before I got the 1.2mhz BOX, I got a 1.33mhz OEM with a junk heatsink, and ruined it because of this!  User error - no refunds - $250 down the drain.)  Make sure the sink is oriented the right direction (they DO have a proper direction).  Make sure it's flat to the surface.  Make sure, the little plastic protection slip over the thermal transfer pad has been removed (if there is one).  Use a screwdriver, and clip it home while keeping a hand firmly on the sink to avoid it rocking and smashing the corners of the core.

And whetever you do, don't EVER, EVER turn the machine on without the heatsink attached.  The core will die within 1/2 a second.  I'M SERIOUS ABOUT THIS FACT.  IT WILL DIE BEFORE IT EVEN HITS POST!  AMD doesn't include a bright red slip of paper with their CPU stating this fact for nothing!  Oh yea, remember to read the installation instructions as well with the CPU.  Even an "expert" like me, who's assembled dozens of systems have ruined a CPU because we thought we were too good to read the f*cking manual.  ;)

4) (and lastly!  WOW, long post!)  Buy a good motherboard.  I can't stress this enough either.  Buy a GOOD motherboard, from ABit, ASUS, FIC, Biostar, Iwill, Tyan... (did I leave any out?  I hear Epox is good to, but have never used them)

Make sure it has a GOOD chipset on it.  This means either an Ali MAGIK-1 or a VIA KT266.  The AMD7xx/VIA combo boards are pretty good too, but with the other two chipsets out, you'd be a fool to buy anything other than these.  I've recently worked on systems with AMD Athlons and odd chipsets (like the SiS, the VIA KT133, etc...) and I don't like their performance, stability, or both.  If you has experience with using various AMD chipsets, please post, since I'm always willing to listen to stories and evaluations from real users.  

Get a board with DDR RAM.  You'll have 2 advantages.  #1 is that it's pretty darn fast.  #2 is that you won't have to update for the furture since DDR will be around for a while.  Make sure it's "PC2100" or better.  If you want the BEST ram, go to http://www.mushkin.com and get some "DDR High Performance" ram (2-2-2 timing).  They have an excellent FAQ on their site as well about the bottleneck of RAM and why good RAM is really important.  It's what I run, and I swear by it.  

I havn't found a MAME game that didn't run at full FPS yet (besides those with known speed bugs like Gorf).  

I hope my primer on "Computer Core" selection helps.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Trenchbroom

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2002, 08:29:30 am »
Just a quick word about Athlon motherboards:  MSI (Microstar) is an excellent brand name.  Really good performance for the pricing and they are known for their Gibraltar-like stability.  I would recommend them highly as a cheaper alternative to the top-of-the-line ASUS and Abit boards.  In my experience Epox and FIC boards have been great board makers as well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Frobozz

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2002, 08:39:20 am »
YES!  Forgot them, thank you!  Gigabyte is also pretty good from what I've seen.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Mike

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2002, 09:44:14 am »
I'd buy what I can get the best deal on. Generally it's Athlons but I've seen some cheap deals on p4's lately. If your looking for a complete system check out dell's refurb section. They have complete p4 1.6ghz rambus machines for $500(Pentium 4 is much faster with rambus and usually goes toe to toe with athlons problem is because rdram is more the want to compare P4's using ddr which it wasn't originally designed for). If your just looking for a motherboard, processor and memory athlon will probably be cheaper just go to price watch and find it. Also I differ from most people here I wouldn't spend a fortune on a motherboard. I personally would get the cheapest one and here is why because all of them you buy usually come with a one year warranty. If it croaks after a year it's usually out of date by then anyways so with the money you saved to start with you can go get a newer board. With short life spans of computers you have to weigh quality versus price. If you can get a motherboard for $40 or $120 I'd buy the crappy one for $40. If you go with something like 1.6ghz  no matter if it's amd or intel you should be able to play about anything.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Frobozz

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2002, 10:20:47 am »
On the motherboard issue:  

A motherboard alone can affect overall system performance by up to 50% or more.

I once replaced a junk proprietary Packard Bell motherboard in a Pentium 166 with an FIC, the system ran Quake at almost twice the framerate than before, from JUST swapping the motherboards!

I've seen similar results from swapping modern boards (a friend's eMachine comes to mind).  If you got a junk motherboard, it don't matter how fast your CPU is.  It's a major bottleneck because it connects everything to each other.  A lot of OEM computer makers skimp on the motherboard to save a buck because motherboards aren't a largely "advertised" component.  But that's why a lot of us build our own machines, because we wouldn't touch these junk motherboards with a 10-foot pole.

Consider this as well.  Most junk boards have very weak, very "featureless" BIOSes.  You go into the BIOS, and there are almost no options available.  No RAM timings, no BIOS cashing, to AGP settings, nothing.  The motherboard DOES do this, because it has to, but they are "hard coded" to a factory default, and are unchangeable.   Now, how much do you want to bet those unchangeable "factory defaults" are the slowest, most "compatible" settings possible?  

Your choice.  My first motherboard was junk.  I'll never do that again.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

lightspeed

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2002, 10:30:05 am »
If using an Athlon, find a motherboard with the VIA KT266A chipset (as opposed to the KT266).  The "A" designation indicated VIA modifyied (ie improved) the chipset since it's initial release.   This chipset supports 266mz PC2100 DDR.

As an aside, VIA has just just released a new chipset, the KT333, which supports 333 Mz PC2700 DDR RAM.    Theoretically, this will be faster that the above, but VIA always seems to revise the chipset just after release.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Frobozz

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2002, 10:53:51 am »
Good point.  The Abit board (KR266) I have does have the KT266A on it.  I don't know of anything using the KT333 yet.  Heck, I thought the KT266A was pretty hot and I just bought it 2 months ago!  Then (when I was going to VIA's site for latest drivers), I saw that new chipset.

At that point, I felt like the posterboy for those "It was obsolete the moment I opened the box" jokes.   :P

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Jonathan_the_Red

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2002, 11:22:06 am »
With the mobo, chipset is more important than manufacturer these days. And for Athlon XPs, there's really only one choice: Via's KT266A. Yeah, there's the KT333, which will probably replace the KT266A eventually but the jury is still out. My mobo is a Shuttle AK31+... nice 'n' cheap, does the job.

With all due respect to Frobozz, I do not recommend the ALI MAGIK. It's a budget chipset, and with KT266A boards as cheap as they've become, there's just no need.

Absolutely do not run your processor without a heatsink attached. However, unlike Frobozz I tend to buy OEM chips. I prefer aftermarket heatsinks. Yep, AMD will replace your retail boxed proc if something goes wrong, but there's still a hassle involved. Nobody likes to deal with a fried proc. And after seeing the little chintzy heatsink AMD ships with the XP 2000+, I just can't believe that it's up to the task of cooling that monster chip.

Attaching a heatsink is an acquired skill, and unfortunately most heatsink clips are not very user-friendly. Make sure the heatsink is aligned properly (it should have a "lip" that will fit over the lip in the socket), slide one of the clips over one of the cleats, then carefully use a flathead screwdriver in the notch above the other clip to maneuver it over the other cleat.

Mushkin RAM is indeed the creme de la creme, but for me there is no other RAM maker than Crucial. They make excellent RAM for an excellent price and ship it Fed-Ex 2-day for free. If you go to the forums at http://www.fatwallet.com you'll find a link for either a 10% or 15% discount from them.

Donor

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2002, 01:43:06 pm »
I agree that the athlonis the best bang for your buck. I've been building pc's with amd cpu's for years and I think they are a quality product. I recently Purchased a biostar M7vib-a motherboard for $67 it has the kt266a chipset. This is a kick --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules-- board. I also purchased a boxed 1900+ athlon for $155 which I thought was a good deal. Rundmc use a Athlon you won't be diapointed.

Check out this site for your parts.
http://www.fticomputer.com
I buy from them often and I can't say enough good things about them, they are cheap and have great service. I purchased a bad oem cpu from them  and they replaced it with no questions ask.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2002, 06:45:19 pm »
Go Athlon! I just got an XP 1700+ and ASUS A7V266E mobo combo (it uses the KT266A chipset-DDR RAM). Also included was a Thermaltake Volcano 6 heatsink and fan (it's huge!). I had everything pre-installed and tested, I'm glad I didn't have to install it myself, it doesn't look easy. The ASUS board might not be the easiest to setup but it has some great jumperfree BIOS overclocking options.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »
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Frobozz

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2002, 07:33:33 pm »
For a budget motherboard, Biostars are damn impressive.  They always seem to get on AMD's certified motherboards list quickly when their new chips come out.    I used one in a friend's computer not too long ago with an AMD/KT133 combo chipset.  

I bought that one though dirtcheapdrives.com.  Funny thing was, I ordered the version w/o RAID, and they sent me one with it at the same price.  So I guess I'd recommend them  :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Trenchbroom

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2002, 08:46:27 pm »
Another seller that many people have had great success with (including myself):  www.newegg.com.  They are always my first choice for new goodies.  

Fried CPU's?  That is one other reason why I recommend AMD--had a friend (no really, it wasn't me)who forgot to take the thermal paste sticker off of his heatsink fan before he put it on his 1.4 Athlon.  

POP!

OEM part but AMD replaced it with no headaches, even though he admitted his guilt and idiocy to them over the phone!

Your individual mileage my vary of course (heh).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

GGKoul

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2002, 09:08:50 pm »
Is the a major between purchasing a AMD OEM vs Retail chip?  Besides the fact that Retail CPUs are cover under a 3 year warrenty and come with a basic heatsink?  And usually cost more...  

Thanks!
-GGKoul
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2002, 09:28:58 pm »
Bump for athlons and newegg.com
check out http://forums.anandtech.com

in their hot deals section.  you can usually find a good deal on computer and technology stuff.  

Newegg.com rocks.  I've never had a problem with them.   Good prices on most things.

From the anandtech forums.. good deal on athlon xp processors:
1600+ $92 + $6.95 Shipping,
1700+ $98 + $6.95,
1800+ $110 + 6.95,
1900+ $138 + $6.95
from tcwo.com  (special pricewatch.com prices)

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=40&threadid=754116

for info and links


For motherboards, I have an ABIT and a Shuttle.. like 'em both!
Daniel
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »
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Frobozz

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2002, 08:23:38 am »
OEM vs. Retail Box?  Add $10 or so.  

As I said, OEM + Third party heatsink = costs more w/o 3 yr warrenty.  

You may want to get a better heat sink though if your cab isn't that well ventallated.  Check out overclocking sites to see what are good ones.  Someone mentioned the Volcano 6, and I've heard those are pretty good.  Stay away from the Orbs and SuperOrbs, those are junk.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

lightspeed

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2002, 11:45:12 am »
I can personally vouch for tcwo.com

I order from them locally, and pick up myself.  However, their shipping is real cheap, and they carry a pretty good range of products.

As for Biostar, i have 2 mobos for about 6 months.  No problems yet.  Although they are budget, they perform about mid-pack in ratings, and have a lot of features.  

tcwo has a Biostar board using the KT333 chipset for about $98.  this would be my first choice.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2002, 07:00:04 pm »
seems to me it's overkill though..i have the amd 1600+ chip...and everything smokes..no overheating problems and i have not turned it off for more then an except when i was on vacation for over 8 months now.
get AMD athlon
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2002, 10:16:29 pm »
Ok I piece together machines at work all the time and this is my opinion.

#1 athlon rocks!  never buy craptel.....
(our university politics force us to give other depts intel machines but when we build our own for our dept they are always athlon :)   )
#2 athlons run hot!  you better get a good fan
#3  don't worry about the confusing clock-speed scheme, they are pretty close to their marketed speed, even though technically they may be lower.  


as for boards....

gigibytes, shuttles, and abits are great

anything else sucks

the new dragon, however, is growing on me and seems to run well.  Otherwise stay away from soyo in particular. The soyo boards have a tendancy to be cheaply assembled.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2002, 09:30:45 am »
I use a duron.  This is my third AMD chip, and I have been satisfied with all of them. :)  I also have used Newegg, and Tompson computer warehouse (TCWO).  Both were top notch.  If your looking for the best prices, you may want to check out Pricewatch http://www.pricewatch.com .  They compare most all of the hardware suppliers, including Newegg and TCWO.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »
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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2002, 06:37:24 pm »
A quick note about the duron, it's geared towards other types of processing and is going to be slightly slower for emulation, stick to a athlon.  It won't make much diff now if you get a really fast one, but when the machine becomes obsolete and is stretched to it's limits the athlon is going to out perform the pants off of the duron for stuff like mame and pc gaming.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2002, 09:56:12 pm »
Quote
#1 athlon rocks!  never buy craptel.....
(our university politics force us to give other depts intel machines but when we build our own for our dept they are always athlon :)   )
#2 athlons run hot!  you better get a good fan


I agree here...

Quote

as for boards....

gigibytes, shuttles, and abits are great

anything else sucks

the new dragon, however, is growing on me and seems to run well.  Otherwise stay away from soyo in particular. The soyo boards have a tendancy to be cheaply assembled.


...and totally disagree here. I've been using Soyo's K7VTA-Pro for long time now, have built over 45 machines using this product and don't have a single headache with them. I'm very, very satisfied with the product, and I prefer this one instead of Dragon because speed gain is almost unnoticeable and price difference is horrorful. Plus it comes with a handy ISA slot.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

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Re: pentium or athlon?
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2002, 09:20:56 pm »
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With the mobo, chipset is more important than manufacturer these days. And for Athlon XPs, there's really only one choice: Via's KT266A. Yeah, there's the KT333, which will probably replace the KT266A eventually but the jury is still out. My mobo is a Shuttle AK31+... nice 'n' cheap, does the job.


I've got the same mobo. I had to do some research on google to find out how to turn the clock up from 1ghz to 1.3, because it defaults to 1.0..

There is one advantage pentiums have. Since they run cooler, the fans are quieter. Probably not much of an issue in a Mame cab, but there it is.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »
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