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New Product: Ultimarc UltraStik 360 Analog/Digital Mappable Joystick
Tiger-Heli:
I understand, just a little - no comprende, it's a riddle . . . Seriously, I followed about half of Randy's post, but I'll waddle through it anyway! Randy, please clarify if I missed anything.
--- Quote from: RandyT on June 14, 2006, 01:17:57 pm ---
--- Quote from: AndyWarne on June 14, 2006, 11:13:20 am ---Randy might well be correct in that in 8-way mode there is not a great deal of value in mapping when connected only via USB. But that is missing the point because the ability to change from 4 to 8 way is the essence. It may well be that many users never create any custom maps at all, just flip from the supplied 4-way to the supplied 8-way.
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If this is is what I was perceived to have stated, then I offer my apologies. I must not have made my point very well. It was more along the lines of "With an analog joystick that has an optimal 8-way configuration and range of actuation that so closely resembles that of a standard 8-way (which cannot benefit from digital restriction attempts, e.g. 8-way to 4-way), how is it that the addition of maps to the same physical mechanics can make a difference in that conversion? Especially if the gaming software already divides the 256x256 map properly.
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Which if the gaming software is MAME we now now that it does not do.
--- Quote ---Regardless, Urebel pointed out some rather interesting (and slightly disturbing) limitations to the MAME code which provides a partial answer to that question. Based on what he has written, mapping must be provided with an analog stick in order to be properly used with MAME, as analog sticks are very poorly handled by MAMEs 8 and 4-way conversion code. So mapping will certainly correct for that particular issue.
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That's the way I understand it.
--- Quote ---The question I still have is related to the rest of the point I had attempted to make, and that is; now that the translation is more along the lines of what is optimal (the analog maps I drew), how does that specifically make it a better 4-way than a switch based 8-way using a 4-way actuator (which provides an actuation map very similar to the optimal 4-way map, yet historically do not work very well?)
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Okay, you are talking about something like a Happ Super with the 4-way actuator, and or the Perfect 360 with the 4-way actuator, copared to the Ultra-Stik using a 4-way map, correct?
Most of what I have heard was that these do work fairly well, except for the circular motion and the PITA of removing the E-clip to switch from 8-way to 4-way.
To answer your question, (from a guess, at least) - I can tell you how it might work better:
If you minimize the diagonals on Andy's matrix, you end up with 9 dead zone points and 9 diagonal points which would be set to Sticky mode (or 9 out of 63 active points) or 15% of the active positions.
We know that say a Happ Super with a 4-way actuator DOES actually allow the diagonals to register - unless you tweak the leaf actuators, etc., even though it shouldn't. So if the Happ stick allows the diagonal to register more than 15% of the time, Andy's stick will outperform it. If the Happ stick allows the diagonals to register less than 15% of the time, it will outperform Andy's, but Andy's could do better by setting up a higher resolution map.
At least that's how I see it.
--- Quote ---Ultimately, this is the aspect I am most interested in understanding and hearing about from the early adopters.
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I'm most interested in the physical feel (throw and return) of the sticks.
trcroyle:
--- Quote from: mark shaker on June 14, 2006, 03:20:09 pm ---
Is it a Hall-Effect stick?
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Mine just showed up and they do, indeed, seem to be Hall Effect. If you look at the photo on the first page you can see the flat magnet at the bottom of the shaft, and if you squint and use your imagination that black blob behind the usb port is where the sensor is. Or, here:
It definately has some throw, though I have a couple of sticks with leaf switches that come close. Here it is mounted through a 1 1/8" hole:
Just played a quick game of Ms. Pac Man. Nice and smooth. Silent. Took a a couple deaths to get used to the feel. I definately think I'll get some of the stronger springs since I have a tendancy to let go of the stick in some games, the center is a just a tiny bit "bouncy" with the stock spring. I like it well enough to get two more.
Timoe:
that balltop looks akmost metallic? and from the photo it looks large. Ithought the balltop would be the exact same as the J-stick.
Am I just not seeing these photos right or something?
trcroyle:
--- Quote from: Timoe on June 14, 2006, 08:44:50 pm ---that balltop looks akmost metallic? and from the photo it looks large. Ithought the balltop would be the exact same as the J-stick.
Am I just not seeing these photos right or something?
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No, hard plastic. Maybe 1.5" across? I'd have to dig out my caliper to be sure. Not too much bigger than that hole. Normal sized. It doesn'ts eem big in the hand.
Kremmit:
U_Rebel: Thanks! I was not aware of that limitation in MAME. The diagrams really helped. Definately proves custom mapping is worth having on ;D these sticks, for things other than just Tron.
--- Quote from: mark shaker on June 14, 2006, 03:20:09 pm ---Is it a Hall-Effect stick?
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--- Quote from: Kremmit on June 08, 2006, 11:01:59 am ---...and what's it use, hall-effect sensors?
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Heh, great minds think alike!
--- Quote from: AndyWarne on June 14, 2006, 11:13:20 am ---
Interestingly, the number of cells in the matrix and also the spacing between cells are programatically adjustable, although the current software does not support this in the GUI. I might consider adding this support if there is interest.
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--- Quote from: Kremmit on June 12, 2006, 07:20:07 pm ---The only solution I can see is to either a) use an odd # of rows for some grid mappings, and an even number for others; or b) use a much higher resolution grid...
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--- Quote from: Tiger-Heli on June 14, 2006, 01:48:33 pm ---I think Kremmit had a very good point that an oddxodd map works better for 8-way mappings and an evenxeven map would work better for 4-way mappings.
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There's two votes, right there! Just allowing an 10X10 map for the 4-way modes is enough to eliminate the dead/sticky zones, but adding higher resolution will also allow the "jaggedness" of the dividing line to be smoothed out as well. Either fix is probably good enough, if one is more difficult than the other.
--- Quote from: AndyWarne on June 14, 2006, 11:13:20 am ---Another point of interest: using a restrictor plate on the stick does not compromise the analog resolution. The internals of the stick use a resolution of 16384 X 16384 so reducing this to, say, half the travel and changing the scale factor (which is done by the mapping software) still maintains a huge resolution advantage over what Windows sees.
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If that's true, then:
--- Quote from: AndyWarne ---On the subject of restrictors I have a sneaking suspicion that I might make the circular restrictor a standard fitment.
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Is starting to sound like a good idea, pending user testing.
Sounds like these are going to be very nice!