prettiest front end?

[fantoboy]

I've had a modded xbox running emulators for awhile.  I just started building a pc for a cabinet.  The xbox has always had cool frontends (or as they call them dashboards) to launch emulators.  Are there any pc frontends that look as cool as these?  All the ones I've seen are pretty much text in front of a jpg.  Anything 3d or just as cool out there?  I just wanna launch MAME, MUGEN, and maybe Zinc and another emulator or 2.
So I guess I'm looking for a simple attractive frontend that will launch executables.

Here are some samples of xbox dashboards:

http://www.allxboxskins.com/skins/uix/weeshit_preview.jpg

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/lofiversion/index.php/t345867.html

http://usuarios.lycos.es/dashesthcinhumano/Doc1_archivos/uix_screenshot171259.JPG

http://www.tdubel.com/artikkelit/kuvat/uixasent/uix.jpg

http://www.tdubel.com/artikkelit/kuvat/uxkuv/xme.jpg

[daywane]

Try AtomicFE
Most people here like Mamewha (also a great program a bit hard to set up, I think)
(not knocking the FE )
Love the creator. (one of my favorite people here)



<------- you think I might like this one 




Me... I like AtomicFE
I will find you a link
http://www.atomicfe.com/

[fantoboy]

That's probably the best I've seen.  I'm really suprised that the level of sophistication is so much higher on xbox front ends.  The mame scene has been around so much longer.


Most of those pics i linked to are showing 3d menus.  They arent simple jpg skins.

[Howard_Casto]

LOL.. I mean no offense, but when I think pretty I do NOT think of either mamewah or atomic fe. 

Check out 3d Arcade or The Dragon King.  Ironically two of the oldest are still the best looking. 

(p.s. dk is mine so I'm slightly biased in that respect)

[youki]

Love the creator. (one of my favorite people here)

thanks! 

#Edit: oops.. re-reading your post, i just figured out that you was speaking about MinWah not me!  Sorry!.
MinWah is one of my favorites people here too!

[sWampy]

Gameex looks pretty good, but a little to much like windows out of the box for most people here.

3d Arcade does look really great, but is fairly slow to move around in due to all the beautiful 3D rendering of machines, and takes quite a lot of horsepower to run.

The Dragon King is good looking, but some reason I've always had trouble getting it set up and running exactly like I wanted it to.

[JoyMonkey]

Speaking of XBox skins, does this look familiar?



I got permission to do a rendition of the XBMC Project Mayhem 3 skin from its author, it was for Kymaera- but then Kymaera dropped off the face of the planet and the new features that would have made the skin really cool were never implemented. 

[markb]

As mentioned 3D Arcade looks very good and has several different modes, but I would recommend the minimum specs to use it of 800mhz CPU, 256mb Ram, 32mb Graphics and probably higher if you want to run some of the video items.
You can however change the way the menu's are presented so they are more 2D like Mamewah than 3D and still have a very presentable frontend.

[Howard_Casto]

Gotta remember, 3darcade also has a very impressive 2d mode.  That's why I mentioned it.  It also has 3d, flat-skins. (2d skins that use 3d objects). I would never reccomend running 3darcade in fps mode (at least for use as a front end). 

It's this "3d flat-skins" deal that will be the main addition of the new dk.  Among other things.   

Btw I also like kymaera, as far as 2d fes go it's the only one that's on par with the other two.  The only reason I didn't mention it is, as you said, it disappeared. 

Also I wouldn't consider gameex a front end.  It's more of a complete and total rip-off of xp media center's gui.    I wouldn't classify it as a mame cab front end, rather a set-top box navigation menu.  In other words, while it looks nice, it also looks like it should be on a pc hooked to your living room tv, not in a mame cab.  So I don't think it should even be compared with the others. 


On the minimum system requirement complaints, I'm not sure why this is still even being discussed at this stage.  While fe's like 3darcade, dk and kymaera sometimes require more resources (for fancier skins only, I should make that clear), it should be a non-issue as the average pc these days is at least a 1 gig processor with 256 megs of ram, more than enough to run any of them.  I honestly hope you guys aren't building big expensive mame cabs and getting all cheap on the pc.  It is the heart of the machine ya know. 


Also reading back what I said I'm my first post, I think people might mis-understand what I meant. 

By saying that mamewah and atomic don't come to mind when I think of "pretty" I didn't mean that they were ugly.  Mamewah and atomic could both be made to look very nice, it's just as far as I can tell the skins in atomic don't really take advantage of what it can do in a visually pleasing manner, and while mamewah could potentially have very nice skins, it's limited rendering capability seriously holds it back. 

So one has reached it's limits in what it can do graphically and the other hasn't utilized it's potential. 

I don't want to get nasty messsages over mis-wording. 

[Howard_Casto]

Speaking of XBox skins, does this look familiar?



I got permission to do a rendition of the XBMC Project Mayhem 3 skin from its author, it was for Kymaera- but then Kymaera dropped off the face of the planet and the new features that would have made the skin really cool were never implemented. 

New features?  Looks like a standard skin to me. What does it need?

[youki]

atomic don't really take advantage of what it can do in a visually pleasing manner,

That's true. My current layout editor is awfull.  But i will change on the next version. I'm writing a new layout editor that will be infinitly better.  And some more surprise to come in term of layout... 

[Lilwolf]

I think one thing is the frontend authors aren't always artistic.

Heck, I wrote my first version of jfront JUST so I could steal the teaser images for arcadeFX.  Heck had mine out for a year before ArcadeFX came out... I never ran it on my system with the default skin but ArcadeFX's.

Prettiest.  I still think most of the frontends out there still miss a bunch of 2d options that they could.  I've remindied it on my new version of my frontend, but am uninspired to make it ready for others right now.  Got it how I like it... stole the graphics from other sources that I need... and am happy with it.  I might go and try and fix it up at some point... but I don't see the need since I don't think I could ever come up with a skin that others will move to... and I'm not going to release with stolen graphics   So I steal for myself now.

Also, I think 3d frontends will become bigger in time.  I started rewriting my old 3d frontend (still think its cool).  I have it now working as it did before with a new java based 3d opengl wrapper.  And now I have to figure out how to add all my cool features that I like to work inside of the pacman machine that I've parsed.  This is currently the trouble... 

[fantoboy]

Is there a front end that can show the desktop as the background?
I was thinking of using dremples as the background, and maybe having a menu over it.

[youki]

I dont know what is "dremples"?

My Fe can not show the desktop as background, but you can use AVI files as background. So may be you can manage to have the effect you want.

[fantoboy]

http://www.geisswerks.com/drempels/

dremples is a moving wallpaper

[youki]

That's really cool! thanks.   It gives me some idea...

[dntaskwho]

GameEx has had some major changes lately. There is a theme editor now and some of the themes that are being made are great. It has a option to make it run for an arcade display and change it so its doesn't look like Windows MCE. It also has great settings for the arcadevga setup. Every game is set to correct resolution without configuration. The front end is easy as hell to setup and he updates it almost every other day. He even put in remote management software. It also has the view control panel when playing a mame game feature. Dragon King is nice but it is a pain to setup this is easy straight out of the box and can be tweaked without to much trouble. Check it out www.tomspeirs.com/gameex

[tspeirs]

I would say try them all out, and don't listen to a front author who recommends his own front end. They generally love replying to these sort of threads, and often bag other front ends.

It's all down to how YOU feel about a front end, and unfortuantly you need to do your research. It takes time, theres no best or prettiest front end as everyone has different rquirements, hardware and taste. Although it would be helpfull to have a most used front list or a shortened list of front ends in active development  somewhere but I would say these are generally the most used, and all but Gamelauncher and Dragon King is still in very active development.

Gamelauncher
Mamewah
Automic Front End
Kymera
Dragon King
GameEx
3D Arcade
Emuloader
Mame32

[Buddabing]

It would be helpfull to have a most used front list or a shortened list of front ends in active development somewhere.

There is

[tspeirs]

It would be helpfull to have a most used front list or a shortened list of front ends in active development somewhere.

There is

Sorry, my bad, very nice. Perhaps these kind of threads can be redirected there in the future. Although maybe I've got crap in my eyes, but I did not see a status column, indictating whether the front end is still in active development, or approximatly when last updated. I think this is important as some front ends don't work anymore due to changes in MAME. If I'm missing that though please correct me.

EDIT: Yep crap in my eyes it's there, just need to read it fully. I think a another column would be better though IMHO.

Cheers.

[Buddabing]

"approximately when last updated"

This might be better than just "under active development".

We ran out of space in the columns.

[tspeirs]

"approximately when last updated"

This might be better than just "under active development".

We ran out of space in the columns.

Great job though, something like this has been needed for a while.

Perhaps maybe month and year would fit. eg. 03/06. Or even year on it's own would identify the front ends that have been abandoned. Maybe some of the keys in the last column could be made into 1 characters instead of 2 and this would free up a bit of real estate?

I did notice one mistake however, in that some of the FE's ie Mamewah, Atomic FE and Gamelauncher are specified as having AM (Arcade Monitor Support). I am assuming this means direct Arcade Monitor support without special hardware (e.g without ArcadeVGA). I believe the only front ends that do this are AdvanceMenu, ArcadeOS, and Kymera(dos).

Thanks.

[Buddabing]

I interpreted arcade monitor support as supporting low resolutions that arcade monitors use. e.g.  MAMEWah's "Classic 368x240" mode.

I don't think the average user is going to attempt to use Windows with an arcade monitor without an ArcadeVGA card. I should probably either add this to the explanation for AM, or else get rid of AM altogether and use something like LR for low resolution support.

I originally had the keys in the last column as single letters, but I agree with the change to a short acronym or mnemonic.

[daywane]

Love the creator. (one of my favorite people here)

thanks! 

#Edit: oops.. re-reading your post, i just figured out that you was speaking about MinWah not me!  Sorry!.
MinWah is one of my favorites people here too!

you are also

[tspeirs]

I interpreted arcade monitor support as supporting low resolutions that arcade monitors use. e.g.  MAMEWah's "Classic 368x240" mode.

I don't think the average user is going to attempt to use Windows with an arcade monitor without an ArcadeVGA card. I should probably either add this to the explanation for AM, or else get rid of AM altogether and use something like LR for low resolution support.

I originally had the keys in the last column as single letters, but I agree with the change to a short acronym or mnemonic.

Yes, LR sounds better. I was just thinking that it undervalues the efforts in Kymera, ArcadeOS, and AdvanceMenu that do support Arcade Monitors without special hardware.

I think two letters are better than one, unless you need to add real estate for last updated. Again I think this is very important information. Software that's in active development and supported should be a critical decision in choosing a front end, and should at the least be more prevelant. Just my opinion though. Maybe a slightly smaller font size for some of the columns would help.

But again kudos to you for doing this.

I think ultimatly, if you could filter the list based on criteria a user enters, so they can choose there perfect front end, that would be the ultimate request for this. Maybe it should be a seperate little php app or something, that links back to the wiki. With this you could add column sorting also. I could code it for you, but I am only skilled in .net and asp for web stuff, so you need some sort of windows hosting available. Let me know if your interested.

[tspeirs]

Also I wouldn't consider gameex a front end.  It's more of a complete and total rip-off of xp media center's gui.    I wouldn't classify it as a mame cab front end, rather a set-top box navigation menu.  In other words, while it looks nice, it also looks like it should be on a pc hooked to your living room tv, not in a mame cab.  So I don't think it should even be compared with the others. 

Have you actually tried it? I'm guessing not as at a bare minimum a thousand people disagree.  Here's several of them:

[Cabinets running GameEx]
http://www.gameex.info/forums/index.php?showtopic=66

[Buddabing]

BTW, if any FE author feels like editing their own wiki entry, please feel free. It is very easy.

[gonzobrian]

I would say try them all out, and don't listen to a front author who recommends his own front end. They generally love replying to these sort of threads, and often bag other front ends.

I disagree with most of this.  Sure try them all out.  But to say don't listen to a FE author is silly.  Why wouldn't you?  Who is going to know the software better to tell others what it can do?  Unless I try every FE when ever there is an update how will I know if there are improvements? Also I have been reading these forums for some time and have never seen any FE author "bag other front ends."  On the contrary most seem to admire each other and point out what is good in the others work. 

[tspeirs]

I disagree with most of this.  Sure try them all out.  But to say don't listen to a FE author is silly.  Why wouldn't you?  Who is going to know the software better to tell others what it can do?  Unless I try every FE when ever there is an update how will I know if there are improvements? Also I have been reading these forums for some time and have never seen any FE author "bag other front ends."  On the contrary most seem to admire each other and point out what is good in the others work. 

Yes mostly, but not always. I've seen it quite a few times, in fact there's an example of it in this thread. Perhaps I was a little harsh and over generalized a little, but it does happen. It's probably just 1 or 2 of them, or maybe even 1. I'm not talking about authors talking about new features available or posting news, or advising users on what there own FE's do. They should do that, it's when they talk about other front ends. I just like things to be factual and unbiased, unless its independent. I'm not going to put links to posts with this happening, but it happens now and again. I certainly respect just about everyone who contributes something useful though, I just got on my high horse that's all. Sorry about that. My philosphy is to be nice and treat everyone with respect, unless they really blow deserving it. I sometimes get ticked off when others are not the same.

Just so there's no misunderstaning, I see you posted in this thread Youki. Note, I am not talking about you here. I really like what you've done with Atomic, it's original, creative, and your dedication to the product and users is admirable...

[Brad]

Tom and others are correct. There is NO perfect frontend as it's almost ALWAYS up to personal preference. You really need to try them all and then make an informed decision. If you don't want to try them all, read the feature-set of each and take a sub-set to try.

Brad

[tspeirs]

Tom and others are correct. There is NO perfect frontend as it's almost ALWAYS up to personal preference. You really need to try them all and then make an informed decision. If you don't want to try them all, read the feature-set of each and take a sub-set to try.

Brad

Yes.
I think the real goal here is to make it EASIER for users to find there choice. That's my real point. It seems like there's a post like this every week, and although its great how everyone helps, I believe in creating things that save time and make things more efficient. That's why I am 110% behind the Wiki. Perhaps it can evolve into a www.topfrontends.com

By the way, the domain seems to be available. lol!

[headkaze]

It's especially annoying when FE developers bag other front ends when they don't even keep up to date with it's development. Time and time again I hear people say GameEx looks like MCE, GameEx has no skin support. It's had full Theme support with the Theme Editor for a while now. And if I do say so myself, the Theme Editor is the most fully featured, bug free and easy to use than all the others I have tested during it's development. Although I am the author, so I admit I am slightly biased

Once an FE has full skin support I believe the look of the front-end becomes the job of the users.

The future of FE's will definately become more like MCE or XBox dashboards with pretty 3d effects and what not.

[mccoy178]

Also I wouldn't consider gameex a front end.  It's more of a complete and total rip-off of xp media center's gui.    I wouldn't classify it as a mame cab front end, rather a set-top box navigation menu.  In other words, while it looks nice, it also looks like it should be on a pc hooked to your living room tv, not in a mame cab.  So I don't think it should even be compared with the others. 

Have you actually tried it? I'm guessing not as at a bare minimum a thousand people disagree.  Here's several of them:

[Cabinets running GameEx]
http://www.gameex.info/forums/index.php?showtopic=66

I'm trying this out now as we speak.  That video is incredible!  Great idea to link that site, as I would've never even looked.

[Howard_Casto]

It's especially annoying when FE developers bag other front ends when they don't even keep up to date with it's development. Time and time again I hear people say GameEx looks like MCE, GameEx has no skin support. It's had full Theme support with the Theme Editor for a while now. And if I do say so myself, the Theme Editor is the most fully featured, bug free and easy to use than all the others I have tested during it's development. Although I am the author, so I admit I am slightly biased

Once an FE has full skin support I believe the look of the front-end becomes the job of the users.

The future of FE's will definately become more like MCE or XBox dashboards with pretty 3d effects and what not.

I mean no offense but I wasn't "bagging" anything and I have kept up with it's development.  While the skins are nicely done I've still yet to see anything other than the "text list with images" layout that's been around since the rd days. 

Compared to other fes the skinning features are still more limited.  Easier to modify definately, but that isn't what we were talking about.  It's not there yet... I'm confident that one day you'll get it there, but it's not there yet. 

And while it's hidden well, the basic media center look and feel is still quite apparent.  At least it is to me.  Like I said it resembles a set top interface rather than a front end. 

I will completely agree with you about it being the users fault though.  You can't be expected to make a buttload of skins and write the dang thing as well.  I suggest your users get busy and quit doing the whole "mamewah skinning" thing (namely take the default skin, change it ever so slightly and try to sell it off as a brand new skin.)  I've had a similar problem with dk over the past few years, that's why you only see my skins on the download page. 

[headkaze]

-- deleted --

[youki]

Just so there's no misunderstaning, I see you posted in this thread Youki. Note, I am not talking about you here. I really like what you've done with Atomic, it's original, creative, and your dedication to the product and users is admirable...

Thanks.     I have to admit i thougth you were talking about me because i did a post "against" your nagscreen in another thead where you posted.   Despite that i really respect your work , that 's a great job too.

[headkaze]

Compared to other fes the skinning features are still more limited.  Easier to modify definately, but that isn't what we were talking about.  It's not there yet... I'm confident that one day you'll get it there, but it's not there yet.

What FE are you comparing? I tried every layout/skin/theme editor I could find including those with MameWah, AtomicFE and Dragon King and made sure every feature I thought worth adding was included in the GameEx Theme Editor. To be frank, most of them were very buggy and lacking features so I didn't really find much worth copying. Most of them are knock-together apps and not full skinning applications, so I don't think they even compare to the GameEx Theme Editor.

So please be a little more specific what FE you are comparing GameEx to when you say "compared to other fes the skinning features are still more limited". What features are missing from the Theme Editor that are included in other fe's? Perhaps I could add these missing features if I knew what you were talking about.

Here is a link in case you havn't tried it.

[)p(]

I will completely agree with you about it being the users fault though.  You can't be expected to make a buttload of skins and write the dang thing as well.  I suggest your users get busy and quit doing the whole "mamewah skinning" thing (namely take the default skin, change it ever so slightly and try to sell it off as a brand new skin.)  I've had a similar problem with dk over the past few years, that's why you only see my skins on the download page. 

Problem is with more complex skinning it really becomes very difficult to make a nice gui for the average user. A good example is the c64 skin for 3darcade that uses cylarcade mode to animate a row of diskettes etc. Just look at this video how it works...
It will be really difficult to design good gui's for this kind of skins. This will be a big challenge for the next generation fe's...not me anymore

peter

[youki]

Yes, you 're right.  And if you want make a good editor it consume more time than making the FE itself.

I'm currently busy rewriting the Atomic one (that have still relativly simple layout in comparison of what is required for a full 3d one) , and to do something great it is lot of work.

[nipsmg]

[quote author=)p( link=topic=51848.msg510750#msg510750
A good example is the c64 skin for 3darcade that uses cylarcade mode to animate a row of diskettes etc. Just look at this video how it works...
It will be really difficult to design good gui's for this kind of skins. This will be a big challenge for the next generation fe's...not me anymore

peter
[/quote]

    
That skin is excellent, wow.  *votes for 3darcade* ;-)

[headkaze]

3D Arcade is very impressive, but I'm not sure it's where every FE is heading. If everyone wanted a complete 3d environment for thier FE everyone would be using 3D Arcade. The thing is, I think the majority of people want a text list and graphics but done in Direct 3D/Open GL environment taking advantage of 3D acceleration and hardware effects. Like the original post asks about a FE like the XBox dashboards available.

For "skinning" in 3D Arcade I would expect you would need a 3D software like Studio Max or Lightwave rather than a custom written Theme Editor.

Yes, you 're right.  And if you want make a good editor it consume more time than making the FE itself.

Which is why I took on writing the Theme Editor for GameEx myself, to take the pressure off Tom. There is alot of work involved in writing a Theme Editor, as you say, and to do it right it takes valuable time away from the coding of the FE. The GameEx Theme Editor is still lacking in many areas but I've only just finished version 1.2. Shame we don't have more coders offering to help with things like this for FE developers. But then again, I'm suprised there are not more artists making skins for FE's. Perhaps people are too busy playing their cabs?

Anyway, check out a video of the XBox 360 Dashboard. Some of these effects are quite basic but are effective. I would like to see a FE with this sort of quality in terms of graphics and effects. And to be honest, it's not difficult to do, I just think alot of current FE's are written using older technologies (excluding 3D Arcade which is probably written in C++ with Open GL) like VB6 (MameWah), GDI (Atomic FE) and even Direct Draw (GameEx) which means writing using these new technologies like DirectX 9/10 will mean a complete re-write of the display code. Which really means a complete re-write of the entire FE. But I do expect the next gen of scratch written FE's to be in this vein.

[)p(]

I think it might be useful to explain how cylarcade actually works as shown in the c64 avi. ( ) I still think it was one of my best ideas in 3darcade and maybe it can inspire someone.

In the cylarcade interface models are placed in a circle with the camera facing towards them. When the camera rotates a new model is added in the direction the camera is rotated and removed from the other side. This way the user can rotate indefinitely through any size gamelist.

I got the idea from the 19th century 360 degree panorama's where you stand in the middle inside a building in the shape of cylinder and look towards the wall.

See http://www.panorama-mesdag.nl

This resulted in:
http://www.i-modernist.com/temp/cylarcadeupdate.jpg
(The fixed model in the center is optional )

As you can see the translation in 3darcade is fairly exact with the painting replaced with an animated texture and the cabinets placed in front of it. By dynamically replacing the models as described above the panorama becomes in essence endless.

But this is just the start! From the start I envisioned it to be a multipurpose interface that could replace the normal text listbox type interface. The key is to be able to change the diameter of the circle, the position of the camera in relation to the circle, the spacing and orientation of the models on the circle. With this in place you can make skins that range from a complete 3d effect like the one shown above, the semi 3d effect of the diskettes in the c64 skin, the price wheels, the completely flat skins like a ultracade wheel like look (the cylarcade interface actually predates it!) to the 100% flat scrolling marquees which I use to select gamelists in the default skin of 3darcade. The latter could even mimic a standard listbox by using the on the fly texture creation feature from a text string.
See for example pics:
http://3darcade.mameworld.net/frontend/defaultskin.html
http://3darcade.mameworld.net/skins/skins.htm

The problem becomes when designing a userfriendly gui for something like this. You will need to be able to interactively change; the camera position, spacing of the models on the circle, orientate the models, etc. etc. and get a visual cue how the end result will look like...as you might understand by now...I have not even attempted to come up with a solution for that...

I am not sure if there is a future for an interface like this. With this amount of flexibility,  probably not! But at least it was a very interesting experiment and a lot of fun doing


peter

[youki]

GDI (Atomic FE)

I don't use GDI for Atomic  ,  AtomicFE (the engine) is written in Visual C++  using DirectX/DirectDraw version 7.  That's a choice i did , because i wanted AtomicFE works on the huge amount of configuration as well modern that oldest.

And i wanted that it works with standard component provided with the os , no need to install additional thing.
The main target was XP.  On XP directx 7 is installed on all version.

writing using these new technologies like DirectX 9/10 will mean a complete re-write of the display code. Which really means a complete re-write of the entire FE.

Wrong, in the case of AtomicFe ,  I will just have to rewrite few primitive of my graphic engine. And nothing to change in Atomic specific code. That 's the power of object oriented programming!  

With AtomicFE , you will have still lot of  (good i hope) suprise in the future...  

[headkaze]

Sorry youki, don't know what gave me the impression it was using GDI. Anyway, my point with GameEx is the same, Direct Draw is an old technology. Direct 3D is the way to go, I'm sure you will agree. It's basically a matter of replacing your surfaces with sprites. Not difficult by any means. I really like your scripted themes, but they can be awful slow. If you optimize that feature, it could definately be a more useful feature. Although, again creating themes could be difficult for a non-programmer unless there is a whole editor with scripting - which is very hard to write IMHO. I guess the way around that is to write some default scripts yourself and allow user's to adjust them.

As for 3D Arcade, I love these ideas that 3D Arcade is using, in fact some of the concepts you describe are what I'm tackling on a project of my own, so it's nice to see them in visual terms. I think 3D Arcade is really great, including the Ultracade wheel and other effects. But as for creating an editor for a program like this, the only way to do it is like Doom 3 - the game *is* the editor, or in this case, the FE is the editor. So you would be within the FE, select "Edit Theme" then have options to select the type of view - cyclic wheel using images, animated textures, 3d models, marquee's etc. then select the view type - infinite cylinder, vertical, sideways etc, then perhaps a background effect eg. radial blur like the XBox 360 dashboard background effect or a wavy mesh effect like MCE background. Then you have the various options of spacing between objects, orientation etc. and as you adjust these options (using keys, joystick or buttons - whatever) the effect can be seen live on your list. This is the only practical way I could see an editor being made for such a FE. But either way, 3D Arcade is still very impressive work.

[tspeirs]

I have to agree with Youki a little, in that a rewrite of the display code does not mean a complete rewrite of the entire front end. In the case of GameEx, since its written in .net the support for Vista graphics is availalable to me now if I wanted to start now, and at the least I am going to take a look now.
I personally cant wait for Vista, WinFX, Avalon and DirectX10, when I can start pimping the graphics in the beast! From what I can tell its going to make the whole process much easier as the whole OS runs on Direct3D, and .net developers get the biggest and best support from MS. I think yourll see a lot more from GameEx too, in terms of visuals, while maintaining a host of features, and ease of use, and allowing me to code and deliver things in rapid time due to .net. The thing to remember for FE developers though, is that I forsee with Vista a whole bunch of new front ends. The display coding, is going to be as fast as it is now in the leading front ends, but going to more slick, and will be done with the ease of writing a vb6 windows form application. I think as well as visuals, UI is important, and I really like the way GameEx does this now, I believe usability should always come over more important than visuals, skinning, theming etc, and maybe thats why more people tend to use GameEx, Mamewaht, Atomic etc than 3D Arcade, which pisses over us in terms of graphics. Because I like the UI in GameEx, I may even decide to code a new front end for DirectX10, perhaps the XBox stuff is the way to go.

I do agree with you Headkaze on where you see the development and future going as you can see from above, an I am wanting it like woody alan after five red bulls, and Im deffinitly not put off by the work involved.

[)p(]

As for 3D Arcade, I love these ideas that 3D Arcade is using, in fact some of the concepts you describe are what I'm tackling on a project of my own, so it's nice to see them in visual terms. I think 3D Arcade is really great, including the Ultracade wheel and other effects. But as for creating an editor for a program like this, the only way to do it is like Doom 3 - the game *is* the editor, or in this case, the FE is the editor. So you would be within the FE, select "Edit Theme" then have options to select the type of view - cyclic wheel using images, animated textures, 3d models, marquee's etc. then select the view type - infinite cylinder, vertical, sideways etc, then perhaps a background effect eg. radial blur like the XBox 360 dashboard background effect or a wavy mesh effect like MCE background. Then you have the various options of spacing between objects, orientation etc. and as you adjust these options (using keys, joystick or buttons - whatever) the effect can be seen live on your list. This is the only practical way I could see an editor being made for such a FE. But either way, 3D Arcade is still very impressive work.

Yeah I agree. For the old 2d part of the fe skinning in 3darcade actually works like that. But its actually more suited for the 3d stuff. And if I would have developed it further I would have done it like you said for everything that happens in the 3d sprite too. For the fpsarcade mode there is already an interactive building mode. Not perfect but a good start. But I have never got around to start one for cylarcade. Knowing that its even more startling how Deniro made that c64 skin isnt

peter

[sWampy]

I personally cant wait for Vista, WinFX, Avalon and DirectX10, when I can start pimping the graphics in the beast! From what I can tell its going to make the whole process much easier as the whole OS runs on Direct3D, and .net developers get the biggest and best support from MS. I think yourll see a lot more from GameEx too, in terms of visuals, while maintaining a host of features, and ease of use, and allowing me to code and deliver things in rapid time due to .net.

There are a ton of us that will never, ever put vista on a machine, way to much drm crap, and even more restrive bs with activation, and monthy fees to Microsoft for updates.

[)p(]

and maybe thats why more people tend to use GameEx, Mamewaht, Atomic etc than 3D Arcade, which pisses over us in terms of graphics.

That and the fact its really old and never designed to be used by anyone else but me 

Times have definately changed a lot since I build my emulaxian cab. And started to make a fe to fit with the theme of the cabinet. It was fun and great  to see that youki made some sort of shooting script to show what his script engine can do as that was one of the features I started with all these years ago...shooting at galaxians to select gamelists. Hehe a nostalgic feeling about a hobby that started with a nostalgic feeling about a longing to play those old great games again as they were meant to be played! ( you can still see how it looked and worked in the frontend section here www.i-modernist.com/emulaxian I actually still use the fe exactly like that...I never changed it on my cab!)

I agree its now time for more userfriendly frontends designed with users in mind from scratch. Its just not my kind of thing...I like doing weird experimental stuff

peter

[Minwah]

The thing is, I think the majority of people want a text list and graphics but done in Direct 3D/Open GL environment taking advantage of 3D acceleration and hardware effects. Like the original post asks about a FE like the XBox dashboards available.

I think you're probably right here, although I don't think like this personally.  I built an arcade machine to play classic (or at least old school) games on...so I want the FE to look old school also (low-res 2d).  So for me personally, my FE is good enough (even graphically, which isn't it's strongpoint).  However I do plan to one day update it using DirectDraw, which will allow for a few extra graphical features.  Unless I have some other reason to learn it, 3D is something I don't think I'll ever incorporate tho.

[youki]

Sorry youki, don't know what gave me the impression it was using GDI.

Surely because i use the GDIPlus.dll to load my images.  But i don't use GDI to display.  

I really like your scripted themes, but they can be awful slow. If you optimize that feature, it could definately be a more useful feature. Although, again creating themes could be difficult for a non-programmer unless there is a whole editor with scripting

I working on that.  I just introduced the feature in this version , it should go better and better in future version. And the layout editor should help to build script too.  And i plan to make a library of simple script that the user can modify easly.

[)p(]

.  I built an arcade machine to play classic (or at least old school) games on...so I want the FE to look old school also (low-res 2d).

Yeah it may be weird coming from the guy who made 3darcade. But I feel that too. Thats why I never changed the skin I made specifically for the cab. It fits it like a glove. So all the 3d stuff has never made it to my cabinet either
(The 3d stuff was actually added for a whole different project about the history of video games.)

peter

[Howard_Casto]

I will completely agree with you about it being the users fault though.  You can't be expected to make a buttload of skins and write the dang thing as well.  I suggest your users get busy and quit doing the whole "mamewah skinning" thing (namely take the default skin, change it ever so slightly and try to sell it off as a brand new skin.)  I've had a similar problem with dk over the past few years, that's why you only see my skins on the download page. 

Problem is with more complex skinning it really becomes very difficult to make a nice gui for the average user. A good example is the c64 skin for 3darcade that uses cylarcade mode to animate a row of diskettes etc. Just look at this video how it works...
It will be really difficult to design good gui's for this kind of skins. This will be a big challenge for the next generation fe's...not me anymore

peter

What he said headkaze. 

Dk and 3da have a lot of features that you don't set in the skinner.  If anything I designed dk so that you DON"T use the skinner to set most things because it's simpler to the user. Want to make a layer animated?  Drop the frames in the folder with the correct name.  Want to put on a stencil?  Again just name it correctly. 

Dk final will also have these 3d skins that peter is talking about, the problem is that as he said, it's nearly impossible to write a gui for.  So my solution is to just make material "keys" in max and the fe automatically plugs in the appropriate textures.  Still the user isn't going to just drag pre-created 3d objects onto the skin, quite frankly I don't have that kind of time on my hands.  I'll just create a model format and the user can stick to it.  Seeing as how virtually NOBDOY will ever use the 3d skins but me, much less, go to the trouble of modeling thier own, I don't see how this is a problem.

So to finish up, I don't know how skinning features and the actual skinner became the same thing to you but they aren't.  With respect, as I said gameex still has a ways to go.  that doesn't make it any less of a good fe, it's just all of the flexibility and features aren't supported yet.  Has nothing to do with your skinner. 


Following the rest of the thread I'll have to jump the trend and DISAGREE with everyone about the ease of use thing. 

If front-ends were commercial and you had to pay for them then I would say they should always be user-friendly, but since they aren't you have two choices, a simple fe that is either ugly and/or is very inflexible but very easy to setup or one that is very pretty and/or has a ton of features but is difficult to setup. 

This isn't the exception this is the rule.  The final factor comes down to time.  The author can only work on so much... personally I'd rather him concentrate on making the thing presentable, felxible enough for evryone's needs and generic enough with game/emu configurations so that it'll still be useable for ages rather than make soemthing really flashy or really easy to setup that won't work 3 months down the road when mame changes it's source or some new emu comes out and the author has long since abandoned it. 

3da, dk and mamewah will always be around because they stick to these principals, with the first two leaning towards graphics a tad more and thus losing a bit of ease in the setup dept.  Some of these newer ones I worry about though. 

Ultrasyle was brilliant.. pretty and very easy to setup but now it's a paper-wieght.  Arcadefx also comes to mind.  I've been around long enough to see dozens of these "one trick ponys" come and go.  The problem is the author always thinks he'll be around to update his fe forever and unfortuantely that is never the case.  I tell the rest of you this not to be-little other fe's that are the next hot thing, but to urge the authors to go back and fix them the "right way" before they decide to leave us.  It will be impossible to make them both easy to setup and "future proof" but you've gotta ask yourself something.... would you rather have a fe that's easy to setup or a fe that'll actually work in 3 years. 

[mccoy178]

Howard, that may be the best writing I've seen from you in a long time.  Great post!

[youki]

I partially agree with howard.

I agree that the FE should not be to emulator specific.  It is why , Atomic does not depend at all on Mame Features or options  for instance . In Atomic itself, you can not set specific option for MAME or other emulators.  You have to configure emulators a side. Atomic just run the config you set for your emulator what ever it is. Atomic will work for ages.

I disagree on other parts and i will prove that with Atomic soon. (just few version to wait... )

[tspeirs]

The good thing is folks have a fair choice of front ends. I'm just hoping we can help make it easier to decide on the one that suites them best. You mentioned Howard about FE's not being updated, I agree on that point entirely. Thats why I am hoping the Wiki can be improved and be made to make the whole process factual based and not biased rather than so opinionated like these threads about best front end etc seem to be. I think we'd all be better contributing our time to the Wiki rather than offering our own experience (which is often huge, I dont disagree) in threads such as this, but when we are all playing nice, I don't mind 

[Howard_Casto]

Funny you should mention that.... I looked at it and noticed that some of the data for dk and a few others is inaccurate.  I wanted to go in and correct, but my login won't work over on the wiki.  I'm waiting for someone to look into it. 

[)p(]

I think we'd all be better contributing our time to the Wiki rather than offering our own experience (which is often huge, I dont disagree) in threads such as this, but when we are all playing nice, I don't mind 

Has it not be like that anymore these days? I dont follow the byoac boards as closely as I used too. But one of the great things while working on my fe has always bene the feedback of fellow developers. For example Howard and I go a long way back. I am probably the one besides himself that knows his fe's the best from long hours of testing them And vice versa..I remember when I got the multi user arcades working...i msn'ed Howard and we met for the first time in the virtual arcade...I had made a pacman avatar...then hc made a ghost...and we started chasing each other around...it ended up dressing up with cabinets as avatars instead...i still can see me chasing that donkey kong cabinet...great fun! 

peter

[headkaze]

I will completely agree with you about it being the users fault though.  You can't be expected to make a buttload of skins and write the dang thing as well.  I suggest your users get busy and quit doing the whole "mamewah skinning" thing (namely take the default skin, change it ever so slightly and try to sell it off as a brand new skin.)  I've had a similar problem with dk over the past few years, that's why you only see my skins on the download page. 

Problem is with more complex skinning it really becomes very difficult to make a nice gui for the average user. A good example is the c64 skin for 3darcade that uses cylarcade mode to animate a row of diskettes etc. Just look at this video how it works...
It will be really difficult to design good gui's for this kind of skins. This will be a big challenge for the next generation fe's...not me anymore

peter

Looks like Microsoft has stolen your C64 GUI and put it into Vista!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aTdTdTELZj4

[TOK]

Looks like Microsoft has stolen your C64 GUI and put it into Vista!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aTdTdTELZj4

Isn't it kind of ironic to be using that to play 15 to 25 year old games?
I got a chance to try the Vista beta, and I can tell you why it got pushed back... It's a huge kludge at the moment. It'll take about 4 minutes to boot on the typical cab spec here (1.5 to 2ghz machine with 512meg of RAM), and those fancy 3D features won't work on the majority of video cards guys are running right now.

I feel XP with a bunch of Services disabled is going to be the primary cab OS for the next 4 years or so. One of the cool things about this hobby is that you can spend a lot of money on other hardware, yet still use a spare/cheap PC to run it all.

All I want in a front end is something that I can shell right into, disguises Windows as much as possible (I used a separate app to skin XP), and has selectable text size. Ideally, it would have an external setup tool that gave you MAME32 style checkboxes and simple text areas to setup directories and not be shown when the front end itself is run. MameWah with the setup program is kind of in that ballpark, but just not as polished.

Love the discussion and appreciate all the work you guys are doing. Perhaps I'm just a simpleton and not the norm here, but a fast boot time and quick, easily read menus so that getting to the games doesn't take more skill than playing them is pretty to me. 

[)p(]

I will completely agree with you about it being the users fault though.  You can't be expected to make a buttload of skins and write the dang thing as well.  I suggest your users get busy and quit doing the whole "mamewah skinning" thing (namely take the default skin, change it ever so slightly and try to sell it off as a brand new skin.)  I've had a similar problem with dk over the past few years, that's why you only see my skins on the download page. 

Problem is with more complex skinning it really becomes very difficult to make a nice gui for the average user. A good example is the c64 skin for 3darcade that uses cylarcade mode to animate a row of diskettes etc. Just look at this video how it works...
It will be really difficult to design good gui's for this kind of skins. This will be a big challenge for the next generation fe's...not me anymore

peter

Looks like Microsoft has stolen your C64 GUI and put it into Vista!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aTdTdTELZj4

Hehe 

I still have no clue why anybody will want to upgrade to vista. There isnt really anything you can do with it you cant already do with xp. And it will have drm protections etc. everywhere which most likely will cause compatibility havoc all over the place...eeks...

peter

[tspeirs]

I'm only interested in Vista from a development standpoint. I'll certainly only use Vista for doing my work and on my cab when and if I am forced to. I could not give a monkeys ass  about the 3D GUI, in fact I even dont like the windows XP Gui, start menu, and all the stuff it does to cater for people who are not skilled. I configure it to the hilt to look and play like Windows 2000 every time I install it. I dont' even want to upgrade from Office 2000.

It's looking like I cant' do that with Vista. So its likely Ill be making apps for Vista, but I doubt Ill be using it at all, until I'm forced. That's a little ironic too

[youki]

Agree with tspeirs. Same thing for me.

Personnaly, i 'd prefer UI like... DOS!  It is why i do lot of thing using Console under XP.
For instance it is faster for me to type a command line to enter in folder and copy files than browsing my folder with explorers ,select files ,  right click "copy"  go to the other folder  rigth click "paste"..etc..

But i think i too old school... 

[JoyMonkey]

Anybody seen the previews of the MC360 skin for XBMC 2.0? Apparently it's set to be released on Friday. There's a video preview here:
http://actioncorp.libsyn.com/
and here:
http://blackbolt.xbox-scene.com/?p=skins&cat=mc360

It's based on the Xbox360 dashboard, but with the extra functionalities of XBMC.

In case you haven't guessed, I'm drooling.

[Howard_Casto]

I'm only interested in Vista from a development standpoint. I'll certainly only use Vista for doing my work and on my cab when and if I am forced to. I could not give a monkeys ass  about the 3D GUI, in fact I even dont like the windows XP Gui, start menu, and all the stuff it does to cater for people who are not skilled. I configure it to the hilt to look and play like Windows 2000 every time I install it. I dont' even want to upgrade from Office 2000.

It's looking like I cant' do that with Vista. So its likely Ill be making apps for Vista, but I doubt Ill be using it at all, until I'm forced. That's a little ironic too

Something that vista is doing that I think might prove to be useful is the fact that EVERYTHING is a poly and there are no more sprites, even at the desktop level.  This means we can stretch, distort and "3d effectify" everything.  With this kind of graphics power at the core level, it might be possible to use really simple tools like visual studio to make impressive 3d front-ends. 


But considering vista is so carzy half of the emus won't get ported for at least a year, I'm not in any hurry.