Build Your Own Pinball Possibilities...?

[yugffuts]

The Futurama pin thread fed this, and this discussion started in there.  I'll try to sum up:

Previous home-made pinball machine makers created their own hardware or modified existing pins, which makes it difficult (and limiting) to the average tinkerer.

Is there a way to interface a PC using the VPinmame program with a physical playfield?  By mapping a bumper to button "m", and wiring it into an IPAC?

Then, if the bumper is hit, the "M" is sent to the PC in the cabinet, and the VPinmame script is run and reacts accordingly, handling sound, scoring and modes.

To handle Solenoids and lamps, www.pinmame-hw.com may be able to help.

Any thought on this topic?

[RayB]

Search this forum, there's a couple long threads discussing the pros, cons and hows to do this (all theory of course).

If you were to use an IPAC for input, you could in theory use any programming software to handle the game logic side of things. Hell, you could even use Macromedia Flash.

The problem comes with controlling stuff on the playfield. Input is one thing, but output is a whole other ball game. (ie: How do you tell a mechanical device on your playfield to start up and move?)

[MYX]

Search this forum, there's a couple long threads discussing the pros, cons and hows to do this (all theory of course).

If you were to use an IPAC for input, you could in theory use any programming software to handle the game logic side of things. Hell, you could even use Macromedia Flash.

The problem comes with controlling stuff on the playfield. Input is one thing, but output is a whole other ball game. (ie: How do you tell a mechanical device on your playfield to start up and move?)

LED Wiz. You use the a Wiz on the front for input. The program translates and outputs to LED Wiz. You would need to put a relay or transistor on the output to allow the flow of higher voltage lines.

[yugffuts]

I read a bunch of other homemade pinball threads, but didn't see this topic touched on.  I will search again and see if I missed anything.

The reason I picked VPinmame for the purposes of this discussion is pinmeme-hw has an Active-X control that allows you to map buttons to objects, so that part is already taken care of.  I plan to install this and see exactly how it works, but it looks promising. 

I agree that the current problem would be output (driving solenoids and lamps).  I am not very familiar with the LED Wiz, I will check that out. 

I think if it can be normalized to some degree the hardware, then homemade pins can take off.  You would need:

PC
IPAC (or other encoder)
Monitor (backbox displays)
Solenoid driver board*
Lamp driver board* (LED Wiz?)

Obviously, the 2 most complicated items are not available.  What is preventing them from being made?  Is it the complexity?  I would imagine it could work like an IPAC.  USB port to a seperate board that is labeled for say 16 solenoids with terminals.  Wire from that device to the solenoids, and drive it with the pinmame script.  Would a board such as this be that complicated/expensive to create? 

[TheCaptain]

I used to have these little toys that were like legos with little motors and stuff, and you could program them to start up under certain parameters (time, keypress, etc.) They were only like, 30 dollars. The motors packed a nice punch, too.

[yugffuts]

I think ideally you would be using the real pinball parts.  The trick here is either

A) Interfacing a solenoid board with a PC or
B) Fabricating a solenoid board specifically to interface with a PC

such that the average person could gather up the parts, and put together their own homebrew game.

Someone with experience creating/modifying boards want to chime in?

[TheCaptain]

I made a little carwash with mine, it was awesome.

[D_Zoot]

It's been done with a Linux box and homemade I/O boards and custom coding.

Read here:

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8476




D

[ChadTower]

That's the headless pin project I was talking about in the last thread when he got snippy that I was pushing his idea in the right direction rather than spoon feeding it to him.

[yugffuts]

At no point did I get pissy.  If that's what you want to think, that's fine.

That project is very impressive. And it proves that it can be done;  The linux PC in question acts as the MPU, however it interfaces with the original solenoid driver and lamp driver board.

For a home made pin to be accessible to most, those boards would also need to be made to interface with a PC.  Then the person could create his own game, and wire it accordingly, without needing to fabricate his own hardware. 

[allroy1975]

c'mon kids, quit the pissing contest.  I love CWT cuz he's a pin guy and ya gotta love yugffuts cuz he's thinking along the exact same lines as me.  After I saw the Futurama pin, I started thinking about the LED Wiz and what a kick ass pin you could build with that...not just lights that go off and on, but actually change color while flashing....

I started talking to a programmer friend of mine and he's all for trying, and I started (trying) to design an Army of Darkness Pinball Machine. 

The theme seems SO obvious and perfect for a pin.  My thinking is to make it like that Space Cadet pin that Windows comes with (now...I think it was originally in the Plus Pack) and I'm sure there are tons of real pins like this..but you choose a misison by hitting X target, then hit another target to select that mission...missions would be stuff like...

Kill the "pit monsters"
Fight Little Ashes
Obtain the "book of the dead"  (not sure how to spell necronomikin and don't feel like looking it up)
Build an Army
Fight the army of the Deadites

The best idea...I thought...came from my friend (flipper) was to use a 15 inch LCD in the Head unit to display the score, and also to show movie clips etc.

Using the LED wiz certainly takes a lot of hassle out of the light problems.  I don't know why someone hasn't started producing that pinmame-HW board.  I would imagine a LOT of DEAD pins could be EASILY restored were someone to build one.  The big problem is of course all the solonoids and that's what the pinmame HW board addresses. 

I think it's a totally sweet idea, and I'm all about trying this. 

It's obviously 100% possible as they're already doing it on the Pinmame-HW.com but their documentation doesn't seem great. 

More brainstorming...btw, those chips they use on those boards only seem to be about .50 each....cheap if you ask me.

Allroy

[yugffuts]

The pinmame-hw project is progressing, but if you read the site, it seems to be just 2 guys who are doing their own projects.  I downloaded the Active-X control last night, but I couldn't get it to work (got an error when loading the table). [The Active-X control allows you to map objects in pinmame to key presses, so if a ball hits a switch, it will send a keypress back to the program for processing.]

I think they are still developing the solenoid driver board, as well.  I would imagine someone with some experience with circuitry could look at or build what they have so far, and see how/if it works.

[MYX]

I think if it can be normalized to some degree the hardware, then homemade pins can take off.  You would need:

Solenoid driver board*
Lamp driver board* (LED Wiz?)

The LED Wiz can be a solenoid driver board. Again, use the outputs of the wiz and go to a transistor or relay and you can control higher voltage circuits.

This would be another reason for Randy to make progress on software for more than 1 LEDWiz.
You figure 1 wiz for lighting and a second for solenoids. If a computer were the brains, you could use it for sound samples. You could use a pentium 1 as all you would need to run is sound, and the the program and the I/O. 32 outputs should be more than adequate. You figure, 2 for flippers, possibly 3 pop bumpers, 4 sling shots, a couple of drop hole returns. It would be plenty.

Here is another thing to consider. -->LINKITYLINK<--
This would allow you to use a Williams System 7 main and or driver boards. He has also made display boards. I was abut an inch away from buying a new main board for my Black Knight when I got it fixed and no longer had a need.

There is a major cost consideration for a pin. with a mame machine there is a computer, encoder and buttons, and joys and the rest is done on the screen. If you go the pin route there are SO MANY parts. It would seem a logistical nightmare. anyone who has ever been under the hood of a pin has to have respect for the guys that built these things.

[yugffuts]

The LED Wiz can be a solenoid driver board. Again, use the outputs of the wiz and go to a transistor or relay and you can control higher voltage circuits.

So, if you ran the LEDWiz LED output through a different board, you can increase the voltage?  You can't connect 2 LEDWiz's in parallel?  I am not too familiar with how that device works.

There is a major cost consideration for a pin. with a mame machine there is a computer, encoder and buttons, and joys and the rest is done on the screen. If you go the pin route there are SO MANY parts. It would seem a logistical nightmare. anyone who has ever been under the hood of a pin has to have respect for the guys that built these things.

Don't forget the cost of the monitor, cab, speakers, control panel, etc.  Designing a pin certainly wouldn't be easy or cheap, but it would still be a great project.

[ChadTower]

So, if you ran the LEDWiz LED output through a different board, you can increase the voltage?  You can't connect 2 LEDWiz's in parallel?  I am not too familiar with how that device works.

No, the voltage comes from someplace else.  The LEDWiz would send a 5v signal to a transistor that is controlling individual ground connections in a ~35v circuit that is connected to the solenoids in a loop. 

Transistor gets its 5v -> connects invivdual solenoid to ground -> solenoid HV fires -> EOS switch is hit -> transistor loses 5v -> solenoid HV shuts off.

That's greatly simplified but how it generally works.

Using the LEDwiz could work for this, I suppose, but you'd still have to build a transistor matrix yourself for switches and solenoids.

[MYX]

That's greatly simplified but how it generally works.

But much faster than one can read it.

Using the LEDwiz could work for this, I suppose, but you'd still have to build a transistor matrix yourself for switches and solenoids.

True

I am warming up to the idea building a pin. CRAP, just what I need... another project.

It is the idea of programming. I would not have the first idea on how to start.

[yugffuts]

I see.  So you would be providing the power to the solenoid driver board externally, and using the LEDWiz to simply open or close the current to the solenoids .  Did I understand that correctly?

As was pointed out earlier:

If you were to use an IPAC for input, you could in theory use any programming software to handle the game logic side of things. Hell, you could even use Macromedia Flash.

[allroy1975]

I don't see anywhere on the LEDWiz page on GGG.com that says you can't use more than 1 at a time...am I missing something?  also...the pinmame-hw.com has schematics on how to build this stuff, right?  can't someone (Randy, Ultimarc...someone?) take those specs and have them built?  do a run of like 100?  I can't imagine they wouldn't sell....Aside from having to wait a few minutes for Windows to boot, it's an amazint opportunity to get old dead pins up and running again. 

For example, I have a dead F-14.  the boards are either missing or busted.  so..I could spend hundreds of dollars and many hours of time trying to find original boards with roms etc, or I could put a PC in it...spend a hundred bucks or whatever that Pinmame-HW board would cost, and WHAMMO...the problems are all out of the head unit and onto the playfield.  Doing this takes all the mess out of fixing a 100% busted head pin. 

Not to mention that it brings to life a whole new hobby where it's now possible (using pinmame and that board) to build and design your own pinball (in software) and then build it in real life - and have it run exactly the way YOU wanted it to.

of it could be done easily using the LEDWiz...I'm all for that too....

Allroy

[yugffuts]

I am inclined to agree that if the pinmame-hw guys, Randy (or anyone) could finalize a design, people would buy them to design their own.  Personally, I don't see the benefit of using it to fix an existing pin; it's not cheap, but parts are out there, for the most part.  You could never sell a pin like that, so you'd be stuck with it forever.  Excellent proof of concept, though.

I think you are right, though, it would:

bring to life a whole new hobby

[MYX]

I don't see anywhere on the LEDWiz page on GGG.com that says you can't use more than 1 at a time...am I missing something?

Allroy

No, you can use more than 1, you just can not use his interface for the animation on more than one board. You would have to animate with board 1 and use board 2 for hardware. (thought about this a lot today).

You would not use the LED Wiz to fix a machine, you would use it to build your own. And yes, no one would buy it, (well perhaps...Someone once sold pet rocks). The thing here is pulling it off could you actually build from scratch your own pin. I REALLY need to finish my cab before I get to far into planning or it will never get it done.

Chad you are still fixin your pin right? Or is it done? Are you thinking about building one?

Pins are so damn tempermental. They are built rugged, but yet they are so dawgon fragile. You can goof up something really bad and not even realize it.

[ChadTower]

Pins aren't fragile.  Within the first 5 years they stand right up to full time commercial use just fine.  After that, they fail.  They are designed to only last about 5 years.

If you get a pin and thoroughly shop it, make some connector upgrades/etc, it will be fully reliable again.

I am almost done with Laser Cue, yes, and then I have several more pins sitting waiting for the same resurrection.  I have no plans at this time to build my own, and if I were going to do it, I'd probably use existing boards and just design a playfield layout that matches an existing ruleset.

[Witchboard]

I have no plans at this time to build my own, and if I were going to do it, I'd probably use existing boards and just design a playfield layout that matches an existing ruleset.

Wouldn't the easiest way be just to convert an old beat-up EM pinball?  I mean, it's already just a bunch of switches.  Hook those switches up to a keyboard encoder and run a script where switch=sound effect.  I guess this is more simple than what's being discussed in here though.  Don't think I haven't been looking at my Jack in the Box and thinking, "That would make a cool Naruto theme."

[ChadTower]

No, not really, especially since an EM is "just a bunch of switches" about as much as an SS is... you really wouldn't want to remove all those stepper motors and relays and such.

[Witchboard]

I wasn't talking about removing anything, except for the bell chimes.  I was talking about adding for sound effects.  No lighting or anything else, thus the "more simple" statement in my previous post.

[ChadTower]

In that case you wouldn't have to add switches, you could probably just add lines to the existing switches in most cases

[yugffuts]

I have no plans at this time to build my own, and if I were going to do it, I'd probably use existing boards and just design a playfield layout that matches an existing ruleset.

That's how the original futurama pin was done, correct?  Strip the PF, design your own, and shuffle the parts around to suit your theme.  Sure to be a fun project, but limiting in your choice of direction.

[RayB]

I'd imagine shuffling parts is not as easy as it seems. Pinball tables have "rules". Like, hit A, first, then hit B, C, and that opens access to D and E... etc...

You'd have to keep track of what the rules are and shuffle things in a way that still makes sense in terms of gameplay.

[ChadTower]

Yep, that's about right, and that would be why you would probably design your desired ruleset based on the basic capability of the hardware system you chose, then find the game with the closest ruleset, and compromise to the closest match.

[MYX]

I'd imagine shuffling parts is not as easy as it seems. Pinball tables have "rules". Like, hit A, first, then hit B, C, and that opens access to D and E... etc...

You'd have to keep track of what the rules are and shuffle things in a way that still makes sense in terms of gameplay.

exactly. this is why the programming side scares me. the reason the greats were the greats was the actual design gimikery as well as the game program creating the challenge. 

[ChadTower]

The programming part is the easiest part.  Once the rules are designed and the hardware is laid out, all you have to do is write the code.

[yugffuts]

You would write you own code, burn it to a ROM and install it on the existing hardware platform you selected?  What language would that have to be in? Assembler?  I can write a VP script, but wouldn't know where to start to re-program a ROM.

[ChadTower]

No, if you're using an existing ruleset, you wouldn't have any need of changing the ROM because it already implements the rules you chose.

[allroy1975]

The programming part is the easiest part.  Once the rules are designed and the hardware is laid out, all you have to do is write the code.

Right, that's why it seems better to just write your own.  I mean...if you think about it, you could do something REALLY REALLY cool.  I'm in the process of buying a trashed pin to attempt this.  I'll rip out the old PF and take the components and start with that.  anything else can be added later, but you can usually find a cheap pin that probably has plenty of decent working parts...or that need minimal repair. 

I'm not interested in this JUST to bring old pins back to life...I'm MORE interested in it to try to design my own (in either vpinmame or future pinball) and then build it out.  Once you design it in pinmame you're almost done.  the rest is ...well....okay...not ALMOST done...lol...still a LOT of work to do. 

Allroy

[yugffuts]

AllRoy, I think you're thinking the same as me.

Develop a game in VPinmame, decide if it's worth the hassle, build the same thing, and use the VP script to run the game.

Chad:  If you're using the same roms, what code would there be to write at all?

[ChadTower]

There wouldn't be any code to write if you used existing ROMs.  That's the point.  There also wouldn't be any PCBs to design or build.  All you would have to do is maintain the proper wiring to the switch/solenoid/lamp matrices and your pin would never know it had been rethemed.

[yugffuts]

That's what I thought, but you had mentioned coding, so I got a bit confused.

I would imagine that futurama pin still has superman sounds, which is going to ruin the theme a bit (at least, if the pin you use has distinguishable sounds).

[allroy1975]

BUT! 

I want to build an Army of Darkness pinball machine...even if I use an existing set of rules (wich might be fine...) I still have to find those boards, in working condition.  That's quite a bit of $ from my experience. 

I WANT my pin head to have a LCD screen in it.  I want it to show clips from Army of Darkness that go along with what the current goal set is on the pinball playfield. 

if I dropped the LCD screen I at LEAST have to have new sound roms burned for the game.  I understand what you're saying.  if you wanted to do something like the Futurama pin...something like a remake might be fine.  But I've seen 2 cabs where people took existing games and tried to make theirs around it.  I thought both could have been so much more. 

Don't get me wrong, the Futurama pin looks great.  It doesn't look like much fun to me though.  I think it could have been more.  and when I make one, I don't want to think the same thing...I wish I could have done XXX...because I think I can.  I think this is VERY possible. 

Allroy

[97thruhiker]

"Now listen up, you primitive screwheads. See this? This... is my boomstick! The 12-gauge double-barreled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Retails for about $109.95. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right. Shop smart. Shop S-Mart. You *got* that?"

Army of Darkness, that movie kills me everytime I've seen it.

[ChadTower]

I would imagine that futurama pin still has superman sounds, which is going to ruin the theme a bit (at least, if the pin you use has distinguishable sounds).

The sounds on that machine are probably not specific to Superman.  It's too early a pin to have speech and probably too early to have real sampling, so it's electronic sounds and buzzes of the early SS days that would not have anything to do with Superman out of context.

Allroy... you want to build a complex, LCD capable, completely custom pin as your first design attempt and are complaining about cost of existing boards at the same time?  Not only are those directly contradictory but they're unrealistic too.

My advice here is to start out with a reachable goal, that is, to retheme an existing pin and experience the process.  Then go forward building something more elaborate.  Don't go trying to build an atom bomb when you have never built a molotov cocktail.

[yugffuts]

My advice here is to start out with a reachable goal, that is, to retheme an existing pin and experience the process.  Then go forward building something more elaborate.  Don't go trying to build an atom bomb when you have never built a molotov cocktail.

I'm inclined to agree.  Personally, I just want to wire up a couple flippers, slingshots and bumpers to the PC and see how it all works.  I wouldn't know where to start designing a DMD (or LCD) display, although I could also worry about that later on in the design process.

I've been trying to get the pinmame-hw application to work, but I've had no luck so far.  Their documentation seems to be lacking, although they are very responsive to questions.  I'm focusing on getting the switches mapped at this point; I'll worry about the lamps and solenoids later.