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SlikStik Christian:

--- Quote from: RandyT on February 25, 2006, 08:02:19 pm ---
--- Quote from: SlikStik Christian on February 25, 2006, 03:13:08 pm ---We want to congratulate Groovy Game Gear for bringing an alternative choice to the spinner enthusiast industry, at SlikStik we know that competition/alternative choices are good for the end user which is one of our commitments as an OEM manufacturer.

In the manufacturing process companies should try to make the highest quality product while keeping it cost effective as well as consumer friendly. We mention price because SlikStik products seem to get hammered for being expensive or overpriced. In addition, we have noticed that some of the claims regarding functionality of the Turbo compared to other spinner controls released in the online, arcade controls forum sales pitch are of no value, thus the need for some clarification.

--- End quote ---

Wow, GGG got congratulated in one paragraph, and then called a liar in the next...I'm all happy and hurt at the same time ;)

I don't usually like to do this in a thread started by a competitor, but there doesn't seem to be any qualms about dragging our name around while alleging that I have somehow made false statements, so defending myself here seems to be the proper thing to do.


--- Quote ---In its main form, the Turbo has a (polymer = plastic) “C” bracket design including dual ball bearings. Just as a coincidence, the SlikStik Tornado which was released 3 years ago by SlikStik™ arcade products has the same “C” bracket design and hosts dual ball bearings as well.

While we do not claim to have re-invented the wheel by coming up with an original spinner design such as the Tornado and at the same time welcome competition and the build a better mouse trap theory, the Turbo design is a borderline duplicate of the Tornado in more ways than one.

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Let's just say that your claim is "far reaching" at best.  Mechanically,  A spinner is essentially what is known in mechanical engineering circles as a "dead axle".    Axles in the SS spinner configuration are found on everything from wheelbarrows to "little red wagons".

But it doesn't really matter because the "Turbo" does not employ this type of structural design.  The circuit board is very tightly screwed to the forward portion of the frame, and therefore acts as a structural member.  The frame is sturdy enough that it probably doesn't require the extra support, but it was made part of the design "just in case".    Therefore, the frame is not a "C" frame having 3 structural members, rather an "open box" design with 4 structural members.

The "dual bearing" method was actually inspired by the trackball roller design.  As you must be aware, GGG has been offering replacement high resolution encoder wheels for trackballs for quite some time now.


--- Quote ---Some of the Turbo’s claims about “high resolution” are a bit of marketing bunk to make it seem that its better than any other spinner and if you care to read the technology behind that statement our rendition is below for anyone’s perusal.

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<I think that's the part where I was called a liar.  Anyone else besides Whammoed think I'm not purveying "marketing bunk" when I state that high-resolution is important in a spinner design?>


--- Quote ---About mouse/spinner resolution and operation:

If you observe the movement of a mouse cursor in Windows, you will find that the mouse moves in small increments as the teeth on the flywheel break the optic plane, sometimes known as "Mickeys". If the mouse movement is set to normal in the windows settings, then for each spoke on the wheel the mouse moves one Mickey.

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If by "normal" you mean mouse speed = slow and Acceleration = Disabled, then yes.  But I don't think that would be the "normal" windows setting for most folks.


--- Quote ---No change in the design of spinner can affect this unless someone was unknowingly producing a flywheel with teeth that were not of equal distances and have varying teeth sizes which would then cause choppy movement.

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This is out in left field.  Not only wouldn't anyone ever do this, but I'd be surprised if it worked at all.  Choppy movement isn't a Windows™ cursor issue anyway.  If you use your spinner with a Windows game that expects a mouse, and you try to use a spinner with a low-res encoder, you will end up needing to increase the "mouse speed" and or acceleration.   But then you would be playing with interpolated (upscaled) control, which sacrifices accuracy and could induce "choppy movement" in the avatar, much like what has been explained in relation to Arkanoid™.


--- Quote ---Mouse movement is fixed at one Mickey per spoke regardless of the distance of the spoke itself. There is no jerkiness because the Mickeys are designed to avoid this by a specific tooth count and even spacing between teeth. Let’s say we have 3 times as many teeth on the same diameter wheel, which would seem physically impossible because the teeth would be so thin they would not be practical, this would then mean the mouse would move more Mickeys per revolution of the spinner. This has not increased the resolution at all; it simply makes the mouse move further across the screen per full rotation.

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That is the point.  More player movement as a result of real data (thus providing accuracy) for less turning of the knob.  Let me try to explain this to you:  If you have an encoder wheel with 48 spokes (which would provide 96 pulses) and 220 possible positions for the player graphic, that is intended to be controlled with 120 degrees of motion then you would need to divide the resolution of the encoder wheel by 3 (360 degrees divided by 120 =3).  This would give you only 32 pulses to represent the 220 positions.  Therefore, the on-screen graphic would have to jump 6.875 positions per pulse (not tooth) of the encoder wheel, which is a ratio of 6.875 to one.  If the sensitivity setting of the game does not offer a sensitivity "boost" of 687.5%, the game cannot be played as intended, even if you are willing to accept the terribly choppy movement.

If anyone does not understand this, please let me know.  I'm not sure I can present it any more simply, but I will try if necessary.


--- Quote ---With that being said, if we adjust the mouse sensitivity down to compensate for the new speed, which is likely to be too fast to be useable and provide a benefit to you playing games, it slows down the mouse to where we were with our original spoked wheel. Have we increased the resolution by doing this? No. If you look closely you will see that the mouse movement is still one Mickey at a time and each Mickey is the same as before, but we actually need to move the mouse 2 or 3 (or more) spokes on the wheel to produce one degree of movement.

The mouse movement actually misses out spokes and might end up with a worse resolution by doing this because of an uneven process. Sometimes 2 spokes might be missed out and sometimes 3.

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The physical movement between spokes is so small, this ends up being a "non-issue".  It's all about scale.  I'll exaggerate the example a bit to make the point.  If I were to put 3 dots on a piece of paper, 2 of them 3 inches apart and 2 of them 2.5 inch apart ( .833333 the distance of the first), and you viewed them from 2 feet away, the difference would be pretty obvious.  Now, if I were to put 3 more dots on the paper, with the first two being .06 inches apart and the other 2 being .05" inches apart (still .833333 times the distance) and you viewed them from the same distance as before, you could not tell the difference.  Likewise, you would not be able to tell if you had turned the knob an extra .010".


--- Quote ---The only way the resolution could be actually increased would be to reduce the size of the Mickeys themselves but this is an entirely software-driven issue and nothing to do with the physical spinner. There is no point in doing this though; it will not benefit your game of Tempest in any way. In the case stated by GGG, their spinner is nearly 3 times more (what?) than any other spinner. Regardless, this can only be done via software programming, just as a reminder Mame itself already has an Analog adjustment built in which enables users the ability to adjust the mouse/spinner/trackball sensitivity settings to their liking thus no need for this feature to be on board of any spinner PCB.

--- End quote ---

<Sigh>  Here's a number for you to play with: 130 "spokes" which provides for 260 pulses per each revolution of the spinner.  There, I showed you mine, now it's your turn to "show me yours" ;)  If it doesn't matter, then you will have no qualms about providing the number.

Forget about all that "software upscaling" stuff...none of it works well, which is precisely why hardware resolution is so important.


--- Quote ---Ask yourself, have you or anyone for that matter ever complained that the resolution of their mouse is insufficient and disrupting game play? No of course not. This is simply a marketing scheme accusing other spinners of producing jerky or choppy movement.

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Yeah, that's the ticket!  ;) 

No, someones "mouse" is going to have plenty of resolution.  A mouse is like a trackball in that the encoder resolution is multiplied by the difference between the circumference of the ball and the circumference of the encoder shaft.  Consider it a "friction gearing system".  A spinner, on the other hand, directly drives the encoder wheel and low-res equals low-res no matter which way you try to "spin" it ;)
 

--- Quote ---The Tornado is still one of the best spinning devices ever made and its design being so simple but ingenious that other manufactures keep using it as their own. In addition it works so well that it has earned enough notoriety that Happ Controls has now licensed production and marketing for the Tornado world wide.

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And you have a problem with my marketing speak?


--- Quote ---This newest attempt from our GGG to almost copy our spinner design and release it for sale at a lower price and then say “I would probably kick myself for offering them at the current price”, just validates that SlikStik charges a more then fair price for the Tornado, especially since it includes some awesome spinner top choices and all the necessary adaptors at no additional charge.

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"Newest attempt" ??   "Almost copy" ??  Pardon me for saying so, but this is getting a little weird even for my tastes.   If I wanted to copy the SS design, I could have done it perfectly.  The fact that I didn't should speak volumes.

Good luck with your sale.  And next time you feel like accusing me of lying in a public forum, I suggest you get your facts straight first.  Could be considered wreckless to do otherwise.


Thank You,

RandyT


P.S.


--- Quote from: divemaster127 on February 25, 2006, 07:02:44 pm ---I own the slikstik spinner its works & looks awesome
thanks
dm

--- End quote ---

Don't forget to disclose that you also sell them ;)



--- End quote ---

Thank You.
SlikStik Christian:

--- Quote from: rugby1 on February 25, 2006, 09:30:01 pm ---Wow,  I can't believe this post hasn't gone to PH yet.... Not cool in my book to basically call a competitor a liar in a public forum.  Not what these forums are here for and definately not something a professional business would do. 

I have ordered from SS and GGG and I can tell you that I will never do business with SS again.   Not even if SS drops the price of their products like they have with their spinners.   I should never have to call a company and ask them to ship my order 6 weeks after I have ordered it.  Don't let me inconvenience you SS (as you are obviously too busy slamming competitors instead of running a business)!  And If I would have seen these posts earlier, I would have never ordered from them to begin with....

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=17778.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=17806.0

*edit:  Yes Christian... what you posted way back when is coming back to haunt you....  I am making it my personal mission to give you bad press





--- End quote ---

Sorry about the delay, if you would have read the International Orders policy before making a purchase, things may have not got as hairy as they did. We did try and rectify your situation as quickly as possible though.
SlikStik Christian:
Hey divemaster127, did he just say that you sell Tornado spinners?
rugby1:

--- Quote ---Sorry about the delay, if you would have read the International Orders policy before making a purchase, things may have not got as hairy as they did. We did try and rectify your situation as quickly as possible though.

--- End quote ---

Hmmm.... I gave all contact info... phone number, address, email addy....   and I did read your International order policy....  too bad it doesn't apply because military address' are the same as shipping to NY.   Now if I would have used my German address then you might have a point, but I never do that because of customs fee's.  Amazing that GGG, Ponyboy and even Happ got my orders to me in 7 to 10 days and it took you literally 2 friggin' months!

*edit : Oh and I did email you and got an auto response... twice!   never heard a word from you in response.... I can produce those emails if necessary.  Basic point is your customer service is horrible and I'm not the only person to have issues. 
RandyT:



--- Quote from: SlikStik Christian on February 25, 2006, 09:30:35 pm ---che cosa gira intorno a viene intorno, my keyboard commando friend.

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Italian to English translation:

"What come 'round, goes around."

Nice.  I go through the trouble of explaining the technology and instead of a technical response or explanation as to how you are drawing your conclusions, I get threatened in a public forum.


--- Quote from: SlikStik Christian on February 25, 2006, 09:40:08 pm ---Hey divemaster127, did he just say that you sell Tornado spinners?

--- End quote ---

Quote from divemaster127.

"I'm running a huge  HAPP sale, below is a list of most of the common happ items,I carry the ENTIRE HAPP LINE, so email me if you do not see it below for a price."

Sounds like he sells them to me.  Or does divemaster127 NOT carry the "ENTIRE HAPP LINE" of which your product is part?

I can only go by what he says.

RandyT

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