Leaf spring switches...where'd they go?

[Sinner]

Why did they stop making leaf spring switches? 
It seems that there's a market for them and that most people prefer them.
Why did they go away?

[Jabba]

Doesn't Peale have them for sale?

[Level42]

How many do you need ? I can get them in any number (reasonably) from Suzo...

[RayB]

Good question... I'd guess the microswitch buttons ended up cheaper and simpler. If you look at the number of parts a microswitch button has: button, nut, switch = 3  Whereas the leaf switches have: button, nut, holder, spacer if needed, switch = 4 or 5.

That's the other thing... the microswitch buttons are "universal". You can install them to metal or thick wood without hassle. For leafs, you need the correct holder or spacers.

[MikeQ]

I got buttons from Wico and leaf switches and holders from centsible.

I hate micros.  They feel terrible and make too much noise.

[erictrumpet]

I didn't realize leafs were so readily available. All my stuff is micros. I think I might prefer leafs. Do they require a lot more space under the CP? In other words, could I just swap out my micros or will it necessitate a total CP redesign? And does it feel weird to have leaf buttons but micro joys? Or would the leaf-people suggest going leafs on ALL controls?

Eric.

[Jabba]

I didn't realize leafs were so readily available. All my stuff is micros. I think I might prefer leafs. Do they require a lot more space under the CP? In other words, could I just swap out my micros or will it necessitate a total CP redesign? And does it feel weird to have leaf buttons but micro joys? Or would the leaf-people suggest going leafs on ALL controls?

Eric.

Once you've tasted from the vine, there's no turning back...

I would replace the joys with Wico Leafs at the same time. Gives the total experience.

Nothing better than being able to "control" the game without a digital 1 or 0 between you...

Redesign: I guess Depends how tightly you've placed your buttons. Leafs DO take up more real estate though...

[MikeQ]

I didn't realize leafs were so readily available. All my stuff is micros. I think I might prefer leafs. Do they require a lot more space under the CP? In other words, could I just swap out my micros or will it necessitate a total CP redesign? And does it feel weird to have leaf buttons but micro joys? Or would the leaf-people suggest going leafs on ALL controls?

Eric.

They do take more space.

[erictrumpet]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Eric.

[MaximRecoil]

Once you've tasted from the vine, there's no turning back...

I would replace the joys with Wico Leafs at the same time. Gives the total experience.

Nothing better than being able to "control" the game without a digital 1 or 0 between you...

Redesign: I guess Depends how tightly you've placed your buttons. Leafs DO take up more real estate though...

Leaf switches are just as "digital" in nature as microswitches; they are either on or off. If you don't like digital, leaf switches are not the solution; an analog joystick is. Games designed for digital control tend to suck when played with an analog controller though; and vice versa.

Myself, I never cared for leaf switch buttons or joysticks. I like the feedback of a click and it irritates me if it isn't there.

[Level42]

Don't think that's what he meant....a microswitch needs a certain amount of pressure to "trip" and make contact. A leaf switch does not have this. I think he meant this with "digital". To me, this is one of the two reasons why leafs are the only way to go. The other is the irritating click, I've hated it ever since I played games.

I still have my trusty FIRST version of my HOME Suzo Competition Pro joystick which I bought for my Atari 2600 way back in 1983. This has leafs for everything. Sadly, Suzo later changed to microswitches.
By the way, despite that I STILL use this stick today AND the leafs are less quality then the true arcade leafs, I've never had to clean or adjust the them.

The rate at which you can fire with a leaf is never matched by a microswitch.

[Jabba]

I think he meant this with "digital".

Thats what I meant. Its all about the "feel" for me, and I hate the clickity clackity Micro switches.

The rate at which you can fire with a leaf is never matched by a microswitch.

Absolutely true. Arcades in my days never had micro switches and that ---smurfy--- clickity clakity cheap feel these MS buttons have.

[Jabba]

Hey Level 42, you said you could get these switches. How much per item are they quoting you? I'd be interested in going in on a larger order if the price was right and shipping was decent...

[erictrumpet]

The rate at which you can fire with a leaf is never matched by a microswitch.

Is that why I completely suck ass at Track & Field (I have microswitches currently)? If so, that is a major point in favor of leafs. Even using the "run like hell" dip switch cheat, I barely make it beyond the hurdles. If it's because of the micros, color me a leaf convert!!

Okay so now that we've discussed the pros and cons, where can I buy leaf buttons, 4-way leaf sticks, and 8-way leaf sticks? And do the buttons/sticks come with the leafs or must one acquire those separately and "install" them? Also can someone post pics of leaf switch gear, since I a total leaf newbie.

And don't tell me to search the forums, I'm sure searching on "leaf switch" will return 10,000 results, the best of which is probably this thread anyway.

Eric.

[MaximRecoil]

The rate at which you can fire with a leaf is never matched by a microswitch.

Is that why I completely suck ass at Track & Field (I have microswitches currently)? If so, that is a major point in favor of leafs. Even using the "run like hell" dip switch cheat, I barely make it beyond the hurdles. If it's because of the micros, color me a leaf convert!!

Okay so now that we've discussed the pros and cons, where can I buy leaf buttons, 4-way leaf sticks, and 8-way leaf sticks? And do the buttons/sticks come with the leafs or must one acquire those separately and "install" them? Also can someone post pics of leaf switch gear, since I a total leaf newbie.

And don't tell me to search the forums, I'm sure searching on "leaf switch" will return 10,000 results, the best of which is probably this thread anyway.

Eric.

That doesn't even make sense. The rate at which you can fire is determined by how fast you can tap a button. The minimal resistances we are talking about with leaf springs and microswitches are not enough to slow down the speed at which you can press the button to any measurable degree, or even, at all. Of course, once the switch is closed, the signal is sent to the board at the speed of light regardless of the type of switch.

It may seem faster with one or the other but I think scientific tests would show otherwise. I don't see anyone being able to move fast enough to "outrun" a microswitch. It reminds me of the old claim that you can fire a double action revolver faster than you can an automatic pistol because you have to wait for the slide to cycle in the pistol before you can fire another shot, while the speed of the action in the revolver is determined by how fast you pull the trigger. In reality though, no human is fast enough to outrun the slide of an automatic.

If people were fast enough to outrun a microswitch, people could also outrun a leaf switch, you just need to be faster than a spring.

[Level42]

OK, get a microswitch. Start pushing it very lightly, then slowly increase the pressure. At a certain point (pressure) it will "snap" and make contact....now KEEP IT PRESSED. Next, SLOWLY reduce the pressure...again, it takes quite some time to let it "snap" back into rest position (even so, this release point is at less presure than needed to MAKE the contact).

So, this is actualy what you are doing when pressing a microswitch button when playing a game. Of course, this goes fairly quickly, but never as quickly as possible with a leaf.

One big pro on the leafs has not been mentioned here yet: it is adjustable to your likings ! You can bend (slightly !!!) to a position that you like it to work. Personaly, I like my buttons to make contact VERY early. So, my leafs are already nearly touching eachother when NOT pushed. They only need a little bit of travel of the button to actuate them.

And again, here there is no "pressure point" you need to reach to make the contact. There is only the leaf "spring" resistance, which is very little and the moment you make contact, you get the resistance of the second leaf, IF you push it all the way down (which I don't normaly when playing games like 1942 etc.)

Other people might like to have a long travel and let the contact be made near the lowest (fully pressed) position of the button. (In practice, when rapid firing, a user will keep the button halfway (not release it completely) when it is set up like this.

The thing is, after some time you feel where the leafs make contact.

I also like it that leafs only bend a bit when being pushed. All in all it just feels nicer.

I also wanted leaf joysticks, but they do have some drawbacks, like no availability. There are cheap Chinese made sticks, DO NOT BUY THEME (So called Wico-like on e-bay). If you want a good leaf-stick, try to find original Wico's.

The alternative I choose for are Suzo Inductive joysticks. NO contacts at all (!!) and work fantastic. (Somewhat like the Happ opticals, but with a different approuch. I like the Suzo style more though, because I'm from Europe and grew up with these sticks (again short travel=quick, you need SPEED on your controls if you want to beat a game)....

And yes I can deliver leafs and buttons, and pretty much everything else Suzo sells. For reasonable prices. PM me if you are interesed and what you need.

[MaximRecoil]

OK, get a microswitch. Start pushing it very lightly, then slowly increase the pressure. At a certain point (pressure) it will "snap" and make contact....now KEEP IT PRESSED. Next, SLOWLY reduce the pressure...again, it takes quite some time to let it "snap" back into rest position (even so, this release point is at less presure than needed to MAKE the contact).

Yeah, I understand the concept, I just don't believe that people are precise enough or fast enough to realize a difference here. A robot could be programmed to repeatedly press and release a leafswitch button in a manner that when it released it it only released it by the exact amount necessary to open the switch, so that there was less than a hair's width separating the contacts. Now, with a given constant top speed of the robotic arm, it could generate more button presses per second than with a microswitch, because the distance it would have to travel to open and close the switch would be less.

But, in the grand scheme of things, the difference in distance is so small that no one could consistently keep their finger motion/travel in an envelope that is enough to open and close a leaf switch but not enough to open and close a microswitch and at the same time maintain their top button pressing speed.

I would have to see it to believe it (scientific tests).

[80sMike]

I would have to see it to believe it (scientific tests).

When I was a kid I was the Track and Field champ at the local Round Table Pizza.  Back then every kid had their own version of the "run like hell" cheat in their back pocket...A trusty hair comb.  There was a way you could use the comb to bridge between the run buttons and if you didn't mash too hard you could run like hell...Nearly twice as fast as the two-handed mashers.   

There was another T&F machine at the bowling alley across town that had the leafs adjusted a bit differently so that contact was made with a deeper press, and I consistantly had worse showings.

When I built my first CP I used microswitch buttons and T&F was one of the first games I fired up to see if I still had any skillz.  I raided the medicine cabinet and found an old comb and tried my run like hell technique...Utter disaster.  I felt like a polio victim in leg braces, clickity clickity clacking down the track like Forrest Gump.  Maybe not scientific, but I haven't built another CP with micros...

They may cost 2-3 times as much, but nothing reminds me of the glory days at the old Round Table like leafs.   

[RayB]

Yeah, I understand the concept, I just don't believe that people are precise enough or fast enough to realize a difference here. A robot could be programmed to repeatedly press and release a leafswitch button in a manner that when it released it it only released it by the exact amount necessary to open the switch, so that there was less than a hair's width separating the contacts. Now, with a given constant top speed of the robotic arm, it could generate more button presses per second than with a microswitch, because the distance it would have to travel to open and close the switch would be less.

But, in the grand scheme of things, the difference in distance is so small that no one could consistently keep their finger motion/travel in an envelope that is enough to open and close a leaf switch but not enough to open and close a microswitch and at the same time maintain their top button pressing speed.

I would have to see it to believe it (scientific tests).

Yeah, and in my opinion it's impossible to beat Sandman in that certain punching game... you know...

With leaf buttons that are finely tuned the way they are supposed to, all you gotta do is alternately bounce your index and middle finger over each button lightly. I'd get insane run speeds with that technique. Can't do that with microswtiches because they require enough force to make the switch click in.

[MaximRecoil]

Yeah, and in my opinion it's impossible to beat Sandman in that certain punching game... you know...

Punch-Out is very marathonable; I've never played much past 1.5 million (an hour per million in that game) but the world record is 16 million which is insane considering the game offers pretty much zero opportunity for breaks. SPO = not so easy. The world record for the arcade is a very low 182K or so, and the record for Mame is a much better, but still somewhat low 448K. I'm up to 738K on my machine now and I am right on the verge of being able to marathon it. It certainly keeps you on your toes, a lot more so than Punch-Out which is pretty much an autopilot game once you have the hang of it.

Anyway, special techniques for taking advantage of the faster open/close times of a leaf switch never occurred to me. I was thinking of one button and one finger. Either way, since there have been a couple of testimonials here, I'll take you guys' word for it.

[danny_galaga]

sounds like leafs (leaves?) are the way to go. i have microswitches and am happy with them. one advantage of micros is that you can get the switches at any old electronics store for about a buck fifty...

[MikeQ]

Another problem I've discovered with micros is that the outer ring of the button carries the pressure when you tighten down the nut.  If you tighten them too much, they will cause the laminate on your CPO to separate from the image underneath leaving a ring around the button.  Leafs buttons have little raised plastic ...things as well as a base that fits exactly into a 1 1/8 inch hole.  This puts the pressure on the side wall of the hole rather than the top of the CPO.  Therefore, no rings around the buttons.

[erictrumpet]

Another problem I've discovered with micros is that the outer ring of the button carries the pressure when you tighten down the nut. If you tighten them too much, they will cause the laminate on your CPO to separate from the image underneath leaving a ring around the button. Leafs buttons have little raised plastic ...things as well as a base that fits exactly into a 1 1/8 inch hole. This puts the pressure on the side wall of the hole rather than the top of the CPO. Therefore, no rings around the buttons.

MikeQ I *think* I understand what you are saying but a pic would help... can you (or somebody) post one?

Eric.

[Jabba]

The only place I've been successful at getting real Wico Leaf style joysticks is from the execellent members here at BYOAC. Post a thread in B/S/T to see if anyone has any they are willing to part with (DOH! blew my source)

[MikeQ]

Another problem I've discovered with micros is that the outer ring of the button carries the pressure when you tighten down the nut. If you tighten them too much, they will cause the laminate on your CPO to separate from the image underneath leaving a ring around the button. Leafs buttons have little raised plastic ...things as well as a base that fits exactly into a 1 1/8 inch hole. This puts the pressure on the side wall of the hole rather than the top of the CPO. Therefore, no rings around the buttons.

MikeQ I *think* I understand what you are saying but a pic would help... can you (or somebody) post one?

Eric.

Micro damaging CPO


Leafs

[erictrumpet]

Ahhhhhh now I get it. (I didn't know how the leaf button worked, having never seen/handled them). Thanks for the awesome replies and pics fellas

Eric.

[hypernova]

check your pm's level42!

[RayB]

Damn! So Mike, where did you CP get printed? You've just added another point to the "plexi over the overlay" camp.

[MikeQ]

Damn! So Mike, where did you CP get printed? You've just added another point to the "plexi over the overlay" camp.

Mamemarquee.com printed my artwork.  I don't really care for the plexi look and now that I know what I'm doing, I would put a little neoprene spacer under the micros and not crank them down so hard.  When I saw what happened, I made sure I didn't tighthen the left side down.  The left side looks fine.  I've been contemplating taking the buttons out and squirting a little glue between the laminate and the art and seeing if I can fix the problem.  It really isn't that noticeable unless you know to look for it.

[Quarters]

Hey Level 42, you said you could get these switches. How much per item are they quoting you? I'd be interested in going in on a larger order if the price was right and shipping was decent...

Hey Jabba, I've got a bunch of Wico sticks in similar condition to yours. If you're ordering replacement switches and buttons maybe we can combine orders to save a few $ shipping and taxes. I'm also in Ottawa

Question: Some of the leaf switches I've found online (like the ones Bob Roberts sells are longer on one side than the other. Can anyone tell me if these are compatible with Wico joysticks or where to get compatible ones?

[Kremmit]

Centsible Amusements sells leaf parts.

Joystick sized leafswitches

Thin leafswitch holders (wood panel type)

Translucent leaf buttons

Regular Leaf Buttons

Strangely enough, they don't seem to have regular, button-sized leafswitches, just the ones for joysticks- or at least I'm not seeing them.  The ones Quarters is talking about from Bob Roberts, with the one side longer, are the ones for buttons- and no, those don't work with Wico sticks, they're too long.  The ones Centsible sells are the right length, but I notice they don't have the protective white plastic layer, so I don't know if they'll work right with a Wico either.

But you really don't have to replace the leafswitches if they're just a little bent up- just get some needlenose pliers and straighten them out!  Then clean the contact points (pinching a wet business card between the contacts and sliding the card back and forth is the way the operators did it) and you'll find the old ones play just fine. 

[erictrumpet]

I see Centsible Amusements sells leaf joysticks as well -- $10.99, imported from China. Are these any good?

http://www.centsibleamusements.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=415

Eric.

[Quarters]

Thank you  Kremmit.
Good info and link.

[RandyT]

I need to chime in on this one.

I built a control panel in the 80's for use with my Coleco and Atari systems.  It used leaf switches for everything because those were all there were at the time, or at least what were commonly used.  They were a serious pain in the ---.   The contacts would corrode.  If you had them set for "hair trigger" that meant that the metal flexed a long way for a full button depress, which led to bent and out of alignment contact points.  After a while, they started clicking because the contact points became almost impossible to keep aligned and they would slide apart and "click" on each button press.

Like Ahigh said, when they are new. they are great.  But my experience was that they weren't like that for long.

Now, about microswitches.  They come in about a hundred different styles when you consider the number of manufacturers there are of these things.  They have varying pressure levels and mechanisms for actuation.  So obviously, you would want to use the ones that most approximate the feel of the leaf.  That means a low actuation pressure and short throw (most of them are short throw.)  So, you say you have that and it's still not as good?  Well, the reason for that is the fact that even the mushiest of microswitches (which seem to be the Cherrys sold by HAPP) require a fair amount of pressure to actuate, more than the average leaf switch which amounts to almost no pressure before actuation.

Which brings us to the solution to the problem (or at least a very good substitute for one.)  The main reason the two feel so different from each other is the fact that one of them has extra spring tension before actuation that the other one does not.  So the solution is to simply remove the spring from the button and let the internal spring of the microswitch do the work.  This also decreases the throw of the button, at least in the case of the HAPP and IL designs, as it eliminates the .030" space between the actuators of the button and microswitch.

It may not be for everyone, but everyone who is not happy with the micros should at least give it a try.  I will never go back to leaf switches after the headaches I had with them. 

One last thing; in a game like T&F, where accurate alternation is as important as speed, isn't being able to know for sure that you have made the press, through the tactile feedback and/or "click" of the microswitch, a good  thing?

RandyT

[Level42]

I see Centsible Amusements sells leaf joysticks as well -- $10.99, imported from China. Are these any good?

http://www.centsibleamusements.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=415

Eric.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!! DO NOT BUY THEM !!! They are complete rubbish !!

Check out my (and others

[MaximRecoil]

One last thing; in a game like T&F, where accurate alternation is as important as speed, isn't being able to know for sure that you have made the press, through the tactile feedback and/or "click" of the microswitch, a good  thing?

I'm no T&F player. We had it down to the laundromat around '84 but after 1 or 2 tries I didn't care for it and much preferred Karate Champ and Punch-Out. But anyway, I have a feeling that people developed a certain technique if they played the same machine long enough and probably any change to the buttons, incuding a new set of leaf springs, or even a readjustment of the existing ones would have thrown them off. So maybe for the people who couldn't do well on T&F when going from leafs to microswitches; the problem wasn't so much the microswitches in and of themselves, but simply the change to something different.

I always hated when anything was changed on a machine that I was already used to. I never cared for any games where rate of fire/button pressing was important so button changes never affected my gameplay much but it certainly irritated me.

[thebrownshow]

So the solution is to simply remove the spring from the button and let the internal spring of the microswitch do the work.  This also decreases the throw of the button, at least in the case of the HAPP and IL designs, as it eliminates the .030" space between the actuators of the button and microswitch.

Has anyone else actually done this?  Sounds like an interesting theory.

[erictrumpet]

I must admit when I first got into mame and bought my first controls, I was in love with the microswitches. Yes the clicked, but to me the reliability was worth it. The click doesn't really bother me anyway, since I am wailing on the buttons so hard and screaming at the game so loudly that a little extra clicky sound is not even heard. Anyway, my favorite game back in the day (and still today) is Galaga, and I used to know which machines in town had "a good fire button" or a "bad" one. Well, microswitches changes all that. All the buttons on my CP feel exactly the same, no adjustment necessary, and they will never change or wear out. I kinda feel the same way about my monitor; I use a PC monitor, and I apply scanlines and vector flicker and stuff like that to give it the old look, but overall I prefer the modern, cleaner look. So maybe microswitches are okay. Not all modern advancements are bad. I mean, do any of you guys still use rotary phones for the tactile satisfaction of turning the dial to call your mother?

Eric.

[Jabba]

Yeah, I'm not exactly which spring to remove. Do you open up the Micro Switch?

[Jabba]

I mean, do any of you guys still use rotary phones for the tactile satisfaction of turning the dial to call your mother?

Uhhhh, yeah! Do you have a problem with that ? 

[erictrumpet]

I just pulled the spring from a button and installed it in a mock CP and man it I gotta say it feels pretty good!

The spring to remove is the big one inside the body of the button itself. Take the microswitch off the button, squeeze the little tabby things together and slide the button out of the threaded shaft. Take out the spring, reassemble.

I am not sure yet if I like the ultra-light feel this gives the button, but my initial reaction is "hmmmm this is kinda nice!" So, I might pull the springs out of all my buttons and try it for a while. Thanks for the great suggestion!

Eric.

[thebrownshow]

I use a PC monitor, and I apply scanlines and vector flicker and stuff like that to give it the old look, but overall I prefer the modern, cleaner look.

Blasphemer!

[whammoed]

Before I do my next build I plan on setting up a microswitch and leaf button side by side and seeing which one I can fire faster in a given time period.

[erictrumpet]

Not to get off topic but a PC monitor is soooooo the way to go IMO. Arcade monitors are great, and I think they are the better choice EXCEPT in an all-in-one mame cab that will play vector games. Don't kid yourselves guys, even on your awesome Betson or WG monitors, vector games look like absolute crap and you shouldn't even have those games on your cab if that's what kind of monitor you have (IMHO). With a PC monitor set the res at 1600x1200, apply antialiasing, and tweak the vector brightness and other settings and you can actually get a decent picture. To me, a PC monitor was the only option because a mame cab without tempest, asteroids, star wars, Gravitar, Star Castle, Omega Race, etc etc etc is not a mame cab at all! This is a topic about leaf buttons so if you want to discuss this (or flame me) start a new thread.

Eric.

[MaximRecoil]

I mean, do any of you guys still use rotary phones for the tactile satisfaction of turning the dial to call your mother?

Uhhhh, yeah! Do you have a problem with that ?

[erictrumpet]

Wow I have to admit those phones are pretty badass

[Jabba]

You could easily knock someone out with that badass receiver by clipping him in the head.   

[RayB]

Yeah, I'm not exactly which spring to remove. Do you open up the Micro Switch?

You have to pop out the plunger.

[Jabba]

Hmmm, unfortunately, this switch does not have a spring. Its a Happs Cherry 95073301... (Sorry for ther fuzzy picture)

[MaximRecoil]

Hmmm, unfortunately, this switch does not have a spring. Its a Happs Cherry 95073301... (Sorry for ther fuzzy picture)

You aren't supposed to open up the switch, at least not if you are trying out what RandyT mentioned. You are supposed to remove the spring from the button mechanism itself.

[erictrumpet]

Up above I explain how to remove the spring. I did it and it makes the switch action extremely light -- I kinda like it.

Eric.

[thebrownshow]

Just tried it on an extra button I had lying around from Ultimarc, did a side-by-side comparison with the two buttons, one with the button spring and one without, and I've got to be honest, I didn't notice much of a difference at all, even with my Track & Field motion (index and middle finger on each edge of the button, alternating).

[Jabba]

Hey Jabba, I've got a bunch of Wico sticks in similar condition to yours. If you're ordering replacement switches and buttons maybe we can combine orders to save a few $ shipping and taxes. I'm also in Ottawa

Sure, sounds like a good plan to me. How about in the new year? I might be looking to get one or two of those Suzo's too. Where in Ottawa are you? I'm in Kanata...

[RandyT]

Just tried it on an extra button I had lying around from Ultimarc, did a side-by-side comparison with the two buttons, one with the button spring and one without, and I've got to be honest, I didn't notice much of a difference at all, even with my Track & Field motion (index and middle finger on each edge of the button, alternating).

If you have a hard actuating microswitch, you might not.  There is a definite difference using the switches supplied with the buttons by HAPP.

RandyT

[Kremmit]

I still have one of those old rotary phones on my desk.  Sucks to dial with, and forget about voice-mail, but I've never, ever found another phone with the same sound quality- both speaking and listening.  It's comfy to hold, too.

[danny_galaga]

I mean, do any of you guys still use rotary phones for the tactile satisfaction of turning the dial to call your mother?

Uhhhh, yeah! Do you have a problem with that ?

[Quarters]

Hey Jabba, I've got a bunch of Wico sticks in similar condition to yours. If you're ordering replacement switches and buttons maybe we can combine orders to save a few $ shipping and taxes. I'm also in Ottawa

Sure, sounds like a good plan to me. How about in the new year? I might be looking to get one or two of those Suzo's too. Where in Ottawa are you? I'm in Kanata...

Cool.
I'm right downtown. I'll pm you early in the new year then.

[thebrownshow]

If you have a hard actuating microswitch, you might not.  There is a definite difference using the switches supplied with the buttons by HAPP.

I might have some of them lying around, I'll give a try with the HAPP microswitches.

[Wade]

I tend to agree with RandyT on a lot of things, and I respect his opinion, but I disagree about microswitches vs. leaf.

My classic games have leaf switches, and I've never had an issue with any of them not working.  I have micros on my MAME, and I am planning to switch them to leaf because of the feel.

The feel of a micro vs. leaf is HUGE.  My T&F cocktail has leafs and the buttons have a pretty long travel (as do some of my other classics), and help bounce your finger back.  Pushing a micro button is not HARDER, but it doesn't give the same feedback and has a very short travel.  Pushing a micro feels more like pushing on a hard surface that isn't a switch at all (no feedback and very little bounce).

I have tried playing T&F on the micros and it plays horribly that way!

Wade

[RayB]

Pushing a micro feels more like pushing on a hard surface that isn't a switch at all (no feedback and very little bounce).

Imagine those who like those Sanwa buttons. I feel those are even more like just pushing on a hard surface. I'm not sure those buttons have any springs at all.

[RandyT]

I think this is going to be ones of those "matter of taste" things.

My experiences were based on a kid (me) with serious play habits.  My system would get at least 3-4 hours of play every day.  I found myself needing to tweak the switches after only a couple of weeks at that pace.  And once you start tweaking them, you will need to keep doing it,  as every time you bend a piece of metal, it will fatigue it more and more.  Until eventually, they will need to be replaced.

Another thing that will vary is the amount of corrosion the contact points get.  If you live in a humid environment, this is likely to be more of a concern.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think there is a functionality problem, only a maintenance one.  There's a reason why entire industries, including the arcade one, turned their backs on these things.  And if someone thinks it was for a different reason, I'm all ears .

So if you are a tinkerer and/or you do more "building" than playing, you don't mind the extra costs involved and you want true retro buttons to go with the retro WICO joystick you are using, then stick to the leaf switch buttons.

But I would have a hard time recommending them to anyone else.  That's just my opinion.

RandyT

*EDIT*
Maybe that "optical buttons" thing that popped up a while back is the real answer to this one

[Wade]

I think this is going to be ones of those "matter of taste" things.
...
RandyT

Definitely!  I'm sure there are people who have only played games with micro buttons, too, and those might be their preference.

A lot of people are probably like me, and I was perfectly happy with my micro buttons until I gained access to a bunch of classic games that use leaf switches.  The difference in feel was noticed immediately.

Come on Randy, really, how can you favor reliability over authenticity, when a lot of us are really into the classics?  Classics have FAR more expensive and difficult issues with reliability than tweaking a switch once every 5-10 years.  When a game breaks and it's only a switch, boy am I thrilled to repair it!!  

(versus a $200 game board or monitor chassis!)

Wade

[RandyT]

Come on Randy, really, how can you favor reliability over authenticity, when a lot of us are really into the classics?

I play the classics too!  But I have never felt that the microswitch buttons detracted from them.  I actually have those icky "harder to press" vertical buttons on my cab  (I really need to replace those) but can still group those four shots in Asteroids just as tightly as I did in the old days.  And Galaga?  Is someone going to tell me that they can't play something as slow as Galaga with a microswitch button?   I mean, I understand the desire to re-create the memories, but a lot of my arcade memories involved playing on sub-standard equipment that was almost always in some sort of disrepair.

But I also have more practical reasons.  My cab is also a test rig.  When I'm testing an interface or a new idea, I can't have a button misfiring and sending me on a goosechase.  BTW, interface performance is  negatively impacted by long debounce delays, and nothing needs good debouncing like a leaf switch

RandyT

[erictrumpet]

I understand the desire to re-create the memories, but a lot of my arcade memories involved playing on sub-standard equipment that was almost always in some sort of disrepair.

AMEN brother. We need to remember this! Nostalgia is great, and it is my primary motivation/inspiration in this hobby, but I also understand that what I am endeavoring to build should - nay, MUST - be BETTER than the old crappy public machines I used to play on. Micros offer many advantages over leaves, but ultimately it comes down to personal preference. Leaves in an enthusiast's scratch-built cabinet will receive much more love, attention, maintenance, and appreciation than the leaves of old. That alone means we won't be completely reliving the horrors of yesteryear. Nevertheless, Randy has hit on an important point, that what we all remember so fondly would probably make us wretch in disgust today.

Eric.

[Necro]

Just a slightly OT solution to T&F: force your forearms into spasms over the buttons.  I don't know if everyone can do this, or if it's some freaky thing I can do, but it works pretty well for me (on my pinging X-arcade...that's right, I'm the white trash of BYOAC.  Leave me alone. )

Only hard part is stopping it and hitting the jump/whatever button dead on right.

[erictrumpet]

necro i know totally what you mean, i sort of go into semi-controlled arm convulsions which gets me running pretty fast, but stopping to hit the action button is the hard part

[Kremmit]

Use your nose for the action button. 

[RayB]

So you're saying Michael J Fox could be the T&F champion?