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Author Topic: TV: S-video vs. Component  (Read 86422 times)

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El Pato

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TV: S-video vs. Component
« on: January 21, 2003, 07:18:05 pm »
I am in the process of building a cabinet and have decided to go the route of using a TV as my monitor.

I have researched and read many posts on this forum (especially from SNAAAKE) about TV w/ S-video being subpar when compared to the original Arcade monitors. I would love to get a Wells Gardner or Happs 27", but cost is just the overriding factor.

On researching video cards, I discovered that the newer ATI Radeon's (8500+) have component video adapters available. They only have drivers for Windows 2000 or XP so I am sure that will eat up some overhead as far as processor performance goes (I was wanting to run in DOS).

Is anybody out there using this adapter? If so, could you tell me how you like it compared to S-video? Would going the way of component video be worth it in terms of Video quality vs. hit to processor performance?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Minwah

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2003, 07:48:15 pm »
Can't be much help about these video cards (although component SHOULD be better than S-video, but why is it an adaptor?)...

I just though I'd ask what spec your PC is.  If it is reasonably powerful and you are running a newish version of MAME then you may actually get better performance in Windows than DOS - I did :)

MrArcade

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2003, 12:20:34 am »
On any video card I have tested, component video is much LOWER quality than s-video.

If you are using an S-Vid solution be sure to get a tv with at least 550 lines of Hz res.

Oh, the memories of living on pizza subs and Dr Pepper...

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2003, 05:37:40 am »
Well I haven't seen a video card with component out before so I don't know.  Most just have composite and s-video out.  How does this component 'adaptor' work?

El Pato

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2003, 11:37:29 am »
Thanks for the responses.

I was surprised myself when I saw the component interface for the ATI Radeon 8500.

The URL to the adaptor is:
http://www.ati.com/products/pc/hdtvadapter/faq.html

If anybody thinks would be an improvement over S-video please let me know. Thanks

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2003, 11:46:23 am »
I personally prefer rgb (eg rgb scart) over s-video always.  Since the component is coming from the vga connector using this adaptor, and I believe component is essentially rgb, then I would expect this to be superior to s-video.  ATI mention that it is the highest quality out for TV's.

But not many TV's have component in - does your TV?

SNAAAKE

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2003, 12:48:32 pm »
i dont know about mame but its GREAT improvement over s-video when i use my ps2...the color is really nice and nearly NO dot crowling..that for ps2..ps2 looks REALLY(i mean REALLY) nice with component..if i were you..i give it a try..I mean..the colors are goin seperate(ya got R G B sort of) so it should give  you a better picture then s-video..post your result if you decide to get that dongle..good luck ;) ;D

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2003, 01:46:45 pm »
I am sorry, I was referring to composite out.  I have no experience with component out.

Oh, the memories of living on pizza subs and Dr Pepper...

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2003, 01:51:45 pm »
I am sorry, I was referring to composite out.  I have no experience with component out.



allright now i get it..i am like... "WAHHHH ???"..you said its "WORSE" and you were about 100% sure about this..
« Last Edit: January 22, 2003, 01:53:02 pm by SNAAAKE »

Macros

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2003, 03:59:48 pm »
Component video is the next best thing to RGB. This website has a comparison of svideo output vs Radeon component out.

http://www.radeon2.ru/konkurs_2/ypbpr.html

Force component output on any Radeon without buying the adpater.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=212199&perpage=20&pagenumber=1


El Pato

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2003, 08:46:39 pm »
Thanks for the links, Macros.

OK, this idea has intrigued me so much that I went ahead and purchased a Radeon 8500 OEM and am going to try the suggestion on the link above -- modifying an HD15 male VGA connector and doing the registry hack for Win98. If that doesn't work, I can always purchase the ATI dongle.

I was going to go for the Radeon 9000 but couldn't find anywhere on the ATI website where the dongle supported the 9000 even though the forum link in the post above alludes to the fact that it should.

OK, so, wish me luck and I will be sure to report my findings here soon.

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2003, 02:39:50 am »
My own RGB vs. S-Video...





All of these pics are taken from a 26" NEC rgb/vga presentation monitor.  Obviously RGB is better than S-Video.  I would imagine that component would be very similar to RGB, more so than S-video.

Check out www.oscarcontrols.com/video for more.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2003, 02:47:36 am by OSCAR »

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2003, 02:54:50 am »
THATs WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT... :D ;D

OSCAR,great picture..i got 2 if it helps anyone..
None is this are TVs..both pure RGB through scan converter.



« Last Edit: January 23, 2003, 02:56:46 am by SNAAAKE »

JayTea

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2003, 12:28:36 pm »
Looking at the above pics,

With S-Video the picture gets cut off at the top and bottom?  Can the Vertical Adjustment of the TV (or CPU)correct this?  The clarity of the RGB is much better, but it's something I can live with, but cut off pictures would be horrible.... I have an ATI all in wonder pro vid card, but no TV as of yet.  Thanks in advance!
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OSCAR

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2003, 11:40:38 pm »
No, I just didn't capture the entire screen in the photo.  I cut off the top & bottom with the camera because I was zoomed in too close.

You most likely have software with your video card that will let you make adjustments (size/position) to the TV-out picture if your card isn't outputting correct, full screen video.


JayTea

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2003, 12:24:44 am »
whew... thanks for the info!
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Pixelhugger

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2003, 02:55:19 pm »
There's definitely a noticeable difference in the pics. Is it even more noticeable in person - IE with moving video? I work as a visual effects editor and I see a huge difference between still image captures and actual moving footage. What looks decent as a still often looks MUCH worse moving due to pulsing and flickering colors and moire patterns, etc. Have you noticed that with the different inputs? Just curious.
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2003, 08:15:08 pm »
There's definitely a noticeable difference in the pics. Is it even more noticeable in person - IE with moving video? I work as a visual effects editor and I see a huge difference between still image captures and actual moving footage. What looks decent as a still often looks MUCH worse moving due to pulsing and flickering colors and moire patterns, etc. Have you noticed that with the different inputs? Just curious.

Oh for sure!  When switching inputs you can see worlds of difference!  It's hard to go back to s-video after using rgb.  But that said, if you are using s-video now, chances are you think it looks great...  I know I did for about a year.  It's when you put them side-by-side that the differences really show up.

But to answer your question, yes, I believe the still photos give a false representation of true live motion.  But when you are in the middle of a round of MvsC, they all kind of look the same to me...   :)


tecmo

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2003, 11:12:06 am »
Anyone bought that dongle off of Ati's site?  I'm really curious as I just ordered the Radeon 8500....

http://www.ati.com/products/pc/hdtvadapter/faq.html

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2003, 12:30:40 am »
What is your setup to run with Component connections?  

I don't want to over spec my system.  I'm looking at a 27" JVC AV27S33 for $299, a Radeon 8500 video card for about $100, and the component doggle for $44 shipped.  Any suggestions on where I can save money?  

I'm considering following the hack from the site Macros linked to, but I don't want to be limited to booting into Win98.  

Are there any problems running Mame with Win2k?  Is there a preferred OS to use when you are running a fast computer (ie. no need to run in DOS to save resources)?
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2003, 10:55:09 pm »
OK ... finally ... after many weeks of trial and turmoil (both with the cabinet and with real life work), I have finally finished my cabinet ... WITHOUT COMPONENT VIDEO.

I purchased the Adapter from ATI ($29 + $15 s/h = $44 yikes!!) and have had nothing but problems with the stupid thing. I have also written 3 e-mails to ATI asking them for help on the situation. Unfortunately they have yet to respond.

My video card is a Sapphire "Powered by" Radeon 8500LE.
My television is a 27" JVC-AV27230.
MY OS is WinXP Pro

The TV has both component and s-video connections and is all in all a pretty good tv for the money. I highly recommend it.

I have also read about the "powered by" Radeon's (that the video-out on them is inferior to that of the "built by" cards), but I must say that I am VERY satisfied with the s-video out on this card. No complaints here. The VGA and even the DVI-D work great too.

However, when I hook up the HDTV component video adapter to this card and connect it to the JVC, everything goes haywire. First off, I have been unable to get any color to be output from the adapter to the JVC. However, I hook up the JVC to my DVD player at home with the same component cables and get a color signal. So, I decided to connect the HDTV component adapter to a Dell projector with a "DVI-I to component" cable, and voila ... I get color. When I asked Sapphire about this phenomenon, they say I must be using PAL for the TV output. The Catalyst software doesn't support the PAL/NTSC distinction for YPrPb output, so I decided to ask ATI about this. It has been over two weeks with no response.

The difference between S-video and Component ouput on the Dell projector was highly noticeable. Component was MUCH better. However, there was still another problem with COMPONENT output from the HDTV adapter which I don't think I can ever get over unless they improve the Catalyst software. It seems that the adapter overscans the images to the TV by about 5%. This is a known issue and documented on the ATI website. I didn't think it would make that much of a difference .... it does. Just to give you an idea about how much of the screen is cutoff with this overscan ... the mouse completely disappears from view in each direction. It was nearly impossible for me to play any games with the command line mame because too much of the playing area was being cutoff. (I know I probably could use another version of Mame to display the game in its proper dimensions, but I don't want to do all this configuration if I don't have to.)

So, that's it. My guess is the output signal from the HDTV adapter only works on TV's that truly support HDTV not just the YPrPb inputs like the JVC I have. I have spent a lot of time researching this subject and just can't find any explanation as to why I can get color on the projector but not on the TV. ATI has not been one bit of help. The overscanning of the image is a huge pain anyway. I am just going to stick with s-video for now, and keep my $44 dongle handy just in case one of these days someone can help me get this thing to work.

For anyone else contemplating this route, I suggest to hold off for now. Even if you can get color out to your tv from the adapter, you will have to do a lot of customization to make the games playable on your arcade, and if you are going to do that, might as well go the route of a true arcade monitor.

So, that is my 2 cents. Hope it is helpful.

Wienerdog

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2003, 02:47:19 am »
What I liked about using a TV with Component inputs is the fact that you can use common parts in the cab.  An arcade monitor is never going to be more than an arcade monitor, but at least a TV can be a TV.

You should try posting your problems on this thread:
Updated Link to the AV forum

Those guys seem to be some hard core mush heads.  I wish you were able to get it working, because I would go with the Sapphire 8500 (which is probably 1/2 the cost of an ATI).

I'm glad to hear you like your JVC.  I was going to take the cheap way out with an APEX 24" but the quality just wasn't there.  It was a big turnaround to now be considering the JVC with Component connections (probably double the cost with the TV upgrade and a 8500 card instead of a 7000).  

Another concern I have is with the 27" TV, it seems like it will be too big.  Do you ever feel your 27" is too big (question to anyone).  
« Last Edit: March 17, 2003, 01:14:03 am by Wienerdog »
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2003, 04:00:24 am »
So is there any way to get this to work?  Do all the models and manufacturers cards display no color with non-HD TVs?  If so.. does anybody know what Sam's Club's return policy is on items like TVs? :'(
k-spiff

Wienerdog

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2003, 12:37:04 pm »
This is the first that I have heard of the "no color" problem.  I would be suprised if there isn't a fix available, it's probably just a matter of tracking it down.  It's too bad that ATI hasn't replied, because the problem seems to be with their software, drivers, or dongle.

El Pato, I see you were going to try the hacked vga plug + registry entrys.  Did you ever try going that route?  I think I may put myself in the same boat as you, by buying a TV with component inputs and using S-Video until things are worked out.  I guess I need the hardware first before I can try anything.
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2003, 02:18:53 am »
El Pato, are you using the SVGA to Component adapter or the DVI to Component adapter?  (not meant to be insulting, the ATI website is just confusing on what adapter to use for the 8500 series).

Just a side not, there is an updated Catalyst software download available that solves the overscan issue (I think).  It is on the ATI website.
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2003, 01:02:11 am »
Did you have your DIP on your HDTV adapter set to 480i?  

One problem is that there are standard Component and HD Component inputs on TVs.  The JVC has Standard Component and the ATI HDTV adapter may only work with HD Component input.  I'm not sure about this.  

However, 480i is standard TV output, so it seems that this mode should work on a normal TV.  Give this a try if you have time.  I think I read that you can override the dip settings in software.  Make sure you are in 480i mode to see if that works.
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2003, 06:34:41 am »
I'm interested in this topic also.  Be sure to let us all know how it works out.

-Ace-
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El Pato

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2003, 07:52:11 pm »
Sorry Wienerdog. It has been a while since my last update. I have just enjoyed playing with the arcade rather than wasting my time ... which is what it seems I do everytime I start messing with the Component output. Thanks for the news on the new Catalyst driver. I appreciate it.

Anyway, I do not have any new news on the new Catalyst driver (3.2) working with my Sapphire card and JVC TV. I downloaded them (both Catalyst and the Control Panel), installed them, and I still get the top, bottom, and sides of the screen cut off on my TV as well as no color. The documentation states 720p is the best HDTV format for the overscan problem, but the little ol' JVC I have doesn't support that. 480i is still a mess, and everytime I try it, the driver resizes my display parameters to 720 x 480 and screws everything up display-wise for when I switch back to S-video.

For all practical purposes, I have given up. I still haven't heard anything from ATI. I am using the S-video with this TV and am VERY satisfied. I know the YPrPb would be better, but I don't have the time to mess with it anymore. I am getting married in 2 months and my fiance already went nuts with me building the arcade. I don't think she would go for me fiddling around with it and not playing it ... or letting her play it. Maybe when I get some free time, I will try to take a look at it. I have given my best effort on it. Sorry to disappoint everyone. If anyone has anymore questions, or would like me to try something else, I am all ears. I am just not up for being creative on my own anymore.

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2003, 08:38:16 pm »
Don't be sorry, your info has helped alot.  I already have a Radeon AIW 8500 and I ordered the HDTV adapter, so I think I'll give it a try.  The worst case is that I buy a TV and end up returning it if I'm not happy.  I guess my only choice is if I go with the JVC that you have, or with another TV.  I need to get it from Circuit City because I have some gift cards there.  I think my options are your JVC, an RCA F27650, or a Panasonic PAN CT27G7SD.  Perhaps I should take my computer to Circuit city and ask to try the TVs out to see if your probelm is isolated to the JVC.  

Anyway, I guess I am beta tester #2.
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2003, 09:54:09 am »
For all practical purposes, I have given up. I still haven't heard anything from ATI.
Nuts.  I have the exact same TV as you (and I too am very happy with it), so I'm sorry to hear that this adapter possibly doesn't want to work with it.

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2003, 10:13:11 pm »
I have the exact same TV as you (and I too am very happy with it).
Sas, are you running S-Video now?  What video card are you using and do you have any pictures?
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2003, 11:59:17 pm »
Sas, are you running S-Video now?  What video card are you using and do you have any pictures?
My card is actually an old 8MB ATI All-In-Wonder Pro PCI, but it outputs pretty nicely.

It's not in my current cabinet - it's gonna be for my next one - but I have it nearby and can hook it up.  Anything in particular you're wanting pictures of?

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2003, 12:41:01 am »
Thanks for the offer, I'm okay now.  I picked up my TV this weekend and will be getting the component adapter later this week.  I'll put some pictures  together of composite, s-video, and component (hopefully), and then I'm sure snaaake will shoot me down with is "my screen is better than your screen" arcade monitor pictures (I can live with that).  
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2003, 12:53:27 am »
Wienerdog, which TV did you get?  I'd love to see pictures and hear how hooking up the component adapter goes.
and then I'm sure snaaake will shoot me down with is "my screen is better than your screen" arcade monitor pictures (I can live with that).  
Hahahahaha.

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2003, 02:21:34 am »
and then I'm sure snaaake will shoot me down with is "my screen is better than your screen" arcade monitor pictures (I can live with that).  
HAH...HAH...HAH
Actually cant do it brother..dont have it anymore :(.

I will get you when I get my new monitor though.. :D ;D

PS:I am honestly interested in seeing how component out looks though..post em !   :)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2003, 02:28:34 am by SNAAAKE »

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2003, 12:02:43 am »
Wienerdog, which TV did you get?  I'd love to see pictures and hear how hooking up the component adapter goes.
My rig:
TV -> 27" JVC AV-27S33
Video -> 128MB 8500 AIW (Built by ATI, of course)
HDTV -> DVI to Component

I am really hoping that my 8500 AIW card works with the HDTV adapter.  My adapter will be here on Wednesday, so I'll try to buy some cables and be ready for it.  I'm happy that I went the TV route, because the picture looks great with S-Video.  To justify some of the expense, I am using this TV as my replacement TV in my basement game room.  I understand the benefits of using a WG 9200, but the TV route fit my needs better and made me feel comfortable that I was at least getting a new TV out of this project.

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2003, 07:43:32 pm »
My rig:
TV -> 27" JVC AV-27S33
Video -> 128MB 8500 AIW (Built by ATI, of course)
HDTV -> DVI to Component
I have the JVC AV-27320, so I'm very curious to see if/how it works for ya!

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2003, 11:50:30 pm »
El Pato,
i got everything set up tonight and was getting a black and white image so I thought I was out of luck.  While looking through the TV menus, I saw "V2 COMPONENT-IN <NO>".  I changed that to Yes and got great color.  I am having significant overscan problems but haven't had time to play with it yet.

I also downloaded a new set of drivers and Catalyst software before trying the adapter.  Good luck.  I'll try to post the pictures tomorrow.
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2003, 09:16:12 am »
Wienerdog,
That is awesome. Although now I am pissed at myself for not even trying the "V2 component-In" setting. I guess I was so pigeon-holed with the problem being in the adapter/software/etc. that I didn't even spend that much time messing with the TV or better yet reading the TV Manual (.... it's a TV for crying out loud ... who ever reads a TV Manual?). Anyway, congrats. That overscan problem is pretty messy though. I will try to find some time to play around with it this weekend. Let me know if you make anymore progress.

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2003, 09:39:00 am »
My own RGB vs. S-Video...





All of these pics are taken from a 26" NEC rgb/vga presentation monitor.  Obviously RGB is better than S-Video.  I would imagine that component would be very similar to RGB, more so than S-video.

Check out www.oscarcontrols.com/video for more.



just out of interest, that is a tv your using right?

i mean, i can make my s-video picture look like yours if i turn the colour all the way up....

after tweaking it though, it looks just like you RGB picture (as far as i can tell - good colour, really sharp image)
but there are a few settings on my tv which help; there's a sharpness level (set to max), and something else (forgotten) that you can turn on and off (again, adjusts the sharpness)

*m

EDIT:

"All of these pics are taken from a 26" NEC rgb/vga presentation monitor." - duh! i didn't see that first time round!
« Last Edit: April 03, 2003, 09:42:59 am by radiator »
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