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I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
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NoOne=NBA=:

--- Quote from: shmokes on September 15, 2005, 08:11:06 pm ---Of course there can be a difference between stated intent and actual motive.  It's called lying.
--- End quote ---

Yes.
Everyone on trial is going to do it, so why should we burden the courts with the job of proving intent, as well as guilt, before allowing them to issue a true maximum sentence?

Your stated goal, for enacting hate crime legislation, is to provide comfort to all members of a given profile when one of their own is murdered, correct?
How are those same people going to feel when someone is convicted of the murder itself, but given less than the maximum sentence allowed because the prosecution didn't prove intent in the eyes of that particular court?

The same people arguing for hate crime legislation are arguing that the courts are too lenient in sentencing as it is.
Is the logical solution to this problem to increase the burden of proof necessary to get a higher sentence?


--- Quote ---I have never EVER stated anything that would even suggest that I believe otherwise.
--- End quote ---
So, you didn't say this when I stated the true intent of my original post?

--- Quote ---What?  That wasn't your point.  Your point was that the death penalty deters crime and that the Raw data proved it.  You even went so far as saying that we don't get to pick and choose how we present the data.
--- End quote ---
I posted exactly what I did, exactly as I did, fully intending to contradict it later to prove this point because it seemed the best way to drive it home.

The court CANNOT prove the true motives of any killer, so should not even attempt it.
They should prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and then issue a mandatory sentence for the crime committed.


--- Quote ---You may think that my philosophies are misguided.
--- End quote ---
Somewhat.
I see your intentions, which are good.
I also see your proposed methods, and those seem to be at odds with your intentions--as stated above.
NoOne=NBA=:

--- Quote from: Dartful Dodger on September 15, 2005, 01:58:26 pm ---If you were black and spent your whole life knowing people hated you, avoided you, watched you, attacked you, because of your skin color, you might understand.

--- End quote ---

No, I wouldn't.

There is no way that increasing the burden of proof necessary to get a maximum sentence would ever make sense to me--regardless of my skin color.

If you have a maximum sentence for murder of the death penalty, you should not have to PROVE that the guy that killed me is guilty, AND that I was killed because of my skin color, to get it.
If a guy comes up, shoots me for being black, but doesn't admit it, and then takes my wallet, why should he get a lesser sentence than the guy who comes up and shoots me for being black, but leaves my wallet.

The first guy not only killed me, but he robbed me too!
How is that justice?
shmokes:
Okay...I've read your post.  Here's my response.  For obvious reasons I'll limit myself to addressing a few of your points.

First and foremost, my position is not that the death penalty increases crime.  It is a possibility.  It has been suggested.  It's an interesting hypothesis and, of course, if true it would be a pretty powerful reason to take my side on the issue.  But that's not my point.  My point is that it DOES NOT REDUCE CRIME.  My point is that anybody who would not be deterred by a life sentence will not be deterred by any theatened punishment.

In 2000, 8 inmates were freed from death row and exonerated; in 2001
Bones:

--- Quote from: shmokes on September 15, 2005, 08:11:06 pm ---I feel like I'm shooting ducks, and no matter how many I shoot down more just keep popping up.

--- End quote ---
Ducks are helpless animals and deserve to be protected.


--- Quote from: shmokes on September 15, 2005, 08:11:06 pm ---I find myself compelled to cut up your posts line by line when responding

--- End quote ---
Yeah, you really shouldn't be compelled to do that.


--- Quote from: shmokes on September 15, 2005, 08:11:06 pm ---"So now you admit that there is a difference between..."

--- End quote ---
You didn't finish this sentence. Woman have boobs and men have doodles. These are some of the differences.


--- Quote from: shmokes on September 15, 2005, 08:11:06 pm ---crimes without a "hate" component should be EXCUSED.

--- End quote ---
I disagree, all crime should be punishable.


--- Quote from: shmokes on September 15, 2005, 08:11:06 pm ---my philosophies are misguided.

--- End quote ---
That is very big of you to admit.


--- Quote from: shmokes on September 15, 2005, 08:11:06 pm ---my ideology clouds my ability to see realities.

--- End quote ---
Refer previous comment.


--- Quote from: shmokes on September 15, 2005, 08:11:06 pm ---Please stop doing it.

--- End quote ---
It's my body and my soap and I can wash it as fast as I like.


--- Quote from: shmokes on September 15, 2005, 08:11:06 pm ---I once had sex with a man.

--- End quote ---
This is your right and I am not one to judge.


--- Quote from: shmokes on September 15, 2005, 08:11:06 pm ---I wish I was as smart as Bones.

--- End quote ---
You are still young yet, give it time.
shmokes:

--- Quote from: NoOne=NBA= on September 15, 2005, 09:16:55 pm ---
I posted exactly what I did, exactly as I did, fully intending to contradict it later to prove this point because it seemed the best way to drive it home.

The court CANNOT prove the true motives of any killer, so should not even attempt it.
They should prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and then issue a mandatory sentence for the crime committed.


--- End quote ---

What a load.  What can you possibly get out of making stuff up like this?  I know you're lying.  You know your lying.  What's the point?  We weren't even talking about hate crimes when you said that.  That was a totally different thread and you only recently brought hate crimes into the discussion.  You posted exacty what you did because you were hasty.  It's an honest mistake.  You looked at data that seemed like it was a slam dunk and then it turned out that it wasn't.  It's not a big deal.  Just say, "Oh,"  and that's that.



--- Quote from: NoOne=NBA= on September 15, 2005, 09:16:55 pm ---
I see your intentions, which are good.
I also see your proposed methods, and those seem to be at odds with your intentions--as stated above.

--- End quote ---

Seriously man, you gotta start making some sense.  Have some caffein or something.
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