Katrina Thread / New Orleans

[shmokes]

I think that Shmokes could even run FEMA.  And he likely doesn't have any horse experience.

The problem was that nobody jumped in and took charge.  Taking charge was what was needed.

If he would have gotten the right team together, he could have managed.  But he didn't. 

Well, I am at least as qualified to run FEMA as the current director.  Which is, of course, to say that I have no qualifications whatsoever.

And part of being the director of FEMA is putting the right team together.  Part of being the POTUS is putting the right team together.

You think it's just the luck of the team?  You think Michael Dell, or Steve Jobs, or Bill Gates, or Michael Eisner don't deserve credit for the success of their organizations?  You think that one governor is as good as the next?  Howard Dean, Jeb Bush, Arnold Schwartzenegger....who cares.  When it comes down to it, it doesn't even matter who's holding the reigns.

I know you don't believe that Fredster.

[ChadTower]

Actually, when it comes to government, it really doesn't matter who holds the reigns.  They all seem to suck.

[shmokes]

You've never been in a hiring position, have you?  There are literally hundreds of high level gov't positions like this.  Do you really think there are hundreds of people with enough experience and talent to fill positions like this that actually WANT the job?

Sure, it does look like Bush didn't even try, but don't make it seem like highly qualified and credible candidates would have been knocking down doors for this job.

Oh brother.  Literally hundreds of high level gov't positions?  What, so like you put an ad in the help wanted section of the newspaper:

Help Wanted.  FEMA Director.  High level government experience a plus.

I'm sorry, but the same people aren't competing to be the director of the IRS as those who want to head up the EPA. 

For one thing, we're talking about Bush's baby, homeland security.  We're talking about the front line of a terrorist attack, conventional, biological, whatever.

He's an Arabian Horse expert.  The CDC itself is teaming with qualified individules.  Are you telling me there's not a single person there with ambitions enough to take that position?

[ChadTower]

Yes, but it looks like there were people on both sides of the fence fooled by this guy.

Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-Connecticut, had cited Brown's Edmond experience as "particularly useful" for FEMA during a hearing in 2002.


And, uh, being head of the Arabian Horse Council implies that he is an Arabian horse expert pretty much with the same credibility that being head of FEMA implies that he is a disaster response expert.  It's probably safe to assume he don't know jack about horses, either.

[Stingray]

Edmond is a nice little town. I'm sure the folks who live there are breathing a sigh of relief that nothing terrible happened while Brown was pretending that he was in charge.

-S

[shmokes]

Well...I've gotta hit the road, so I don't have time to click that link, but keep in mind that Lieberman is a retard.

[ChadTower]

Well...I've gotta hit the road, so I don't have time to click that link, but keep in mind that Lieberman is a retard.

 

[fredster]

Oh there's plenty of blame to go around.

The bigger questions are still out there.  What's going to happen to these people now? How long will they have to be sheltered by the government? What will happen to NOLA when they bulldoze all of those ruined structures?

Will we have pay for a new system that protects NOLA from a CAT 5.1?

What other agencies are ran by people without the proper qualifications?

How much will this cost?

How many people are dead?

What other disaster plans are a disaster?

Do we want the military to actually take control of an area?

Man, the questions are endless. 

[markrvp]

Shmokes:

What would you like to see happen to Bush?

[markrvp]

Back to Katrina. Can anyone defend FEMA now?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9266986/

If Bush found Brown to be ineffective, then I think replacing him is a good move.

[JCL]

Back to Katrina. Can anyone defend FEMA now?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9266986/

If Bush found Brown to be ineffective, then I think replacing him is a good move.

[markrvp]

I have been unable to find a transcript of the Democratic press conference, but here is a LINK to a NEW YORK TIMES article that talks about the press conference yesterday where Democrats proposed legislation for affected areas.

[NoOne=NBA=]

The "blame" for this rests solely in Louisiana.

1) The mayor SHOULD have had a plan in place to get the poor out (especially in the wake of Ivan), if he truly "cared" about them, as he'd have us believe.

2) The local and state governments SHOULD have done something to bring the levies up to Cat5 level at some point, BEFORE they needed it.

3) The governor SHOULD have requested, and more importantly DIRECTED, federal aid in a timely manner.
Federal aid is subordinate to the State in these types of scenarios; and can't do ANYTHING without direction FROM the State.

4) The PEOPLE should not have been shooting at the first responders, and SHOULD have been helping each other, as has happened elsewhere when a disaster like this has hit.

The federal government is NOT the primary disaster relief agency that everyone seems to think that it is.
State and local authorities are responsible for that, and failed miserably in this disaster.
If they had a plan to evacuate PROPERLY, there wouldn't be anybody there that NEEDED help.
The federal aid could have waited for a week, as it has in past disasters, before going in to help rebuild.

[JCL]

I have been unable to find a transcript of the Democratic press conference, but here is a LINK to a NEW YORK TIMES article that talks about the press conference yesterday where Democrats proposed legislation for affected areas.

[markrvp]

That's what they said in the press conference. 

Here is what I can corroborate:  Leading Democrats in both the House & Senate held a press conference yesterday to criticize the the Bush administration.  In this press conference Nancy Pelosi stated that she asked the president to Fire Mike Brown as FEMA director.

Everybody is reporting that.  What was also in the press conference is what I stated earlier.  I remember it because a reporter asked them specifically why they would eliminate an agency that was already in the middle of a rescue/recovery operation and add a new layer of bureacracy.  I do not know why the internet press is not running with that story.  Probably because no one took them seriously as they do not have the power to pull off such a move.

In any event I have not changed my story from the first post.

The Democrats in Washington seem to care little about helping the victims on the Gulf Coast.  They do seem very interested in trying to harm the Republican party and president Bush by politicizing a natural disaster.

[shmokes]

MarkVP,

First you said:

the Democratic alternative which was to stop all funding to FEMA and give the money to Ted Kennedy to disperse as he sees fit."

Then you said:

Nancy Pelosi and other lead Democrats yesterday held a press conference and called for all funds to FEMA to be halted and a new entity similar to the one created during the Tennessee Valley Floods to be created under the leadership of Ted Kennedy.

Even if your account of the press conference on CNN turns out to be true, it's a little disingenous to say that your story never changed.

[markrvp]

If you honestly believe that I claimed Democrats wanted to put all of FEMA's money into Ted Kennedy's personal checking account then you are not as bright as you need to be. 

You guys are attacking me personally rather than responding to the issue at hand which is:  should the Federal government abolish FEMA in the middle of a disaster relief effort and create a new bureacracy with its funding under the leadership of Ted Kennedy?

If you want to debate the issue I'm all for it.  If you want to attack me personally then I'll just laugh and go on.  Shmokes, I asked you some serious questions earlier in this thread because I honestly would like to hear your thoughts on the issues.  Since you have chosen not to respond, I'll assume you don't have answers and chose personal attacks instead.

[shmokes]

They're not personal attacks.  They're attacking a strawman argument.  You have given some backstory now, but in the context of defending your original post.  You simply said that Democrats want to take the money from FEMA and give it to Ted Kennedy to disperse it as he sees fit.  Were we supposed to magically infer from that statement that Pelosi said a new full-fledged organization would be formed?  How could a full-time senator like Ted Kennedy even run a separate organization like that?

You're right.  It sounds ridiculous, which is why it was identified as a ridiculous claim without anyone even bothering to look it up.  I'm still not entirely clear if Ted Kennedy is meant to be the director of this new organization or if he is meant merely to head up its creation, but anyway....

I'm not ignoring your earlier questions, I just had to hit the road, as I mentioned to Chad in my post about Senator Liebermann, because I had to head to one of my other offices and do some work there.  I was just gone for a few hours and haven't caught up on everything.

I guess you're basically asking if I think he should be impeached.  That's pretty tough.  I think probably not.  I mean, there's the oath of office (I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.)

And I simply don't think he's done that.  But, my god, if you could impeach for doing a poor job (even one as bad as his) Presidents would get impeached any time one party controlled congress while another the whitehouse.  I think it's a trajedy what the Republicans did to President Clinton.  As much as I would personally derive a great deal of satisfaction watching President Bush, who I think has done so much harm, get impeached, I'm not sure that impeaching presidents on a whim is a habit I really want to see develop.  Anyway, considering the makeup of Congress it's neither here nor there.  Wishful thinking at best.

But Bush should be held accountable.  He should be held accountable in the next election, in terms of Democrat gains in Congress.  And he should be held accountable in 2008 in terms of Democrat gains in the White House.

Do you think that a lame duck President can simply do whatever he wants just because he doesn't have to worry about reelection?  Look what Nixon did to the Republican party as a whole.  Y'all didn't recover until 1994.  Bush can be held accountable for his ineptitude.

Now if we could impeach his whole administration, I'd be all for it just so the democrats could get a piece of that Supreme Court, but...

[markrvp]

Do you think that a lame duck President can simply do whatever he wants just because he doesn't have to worry about reelection?

No, I don't feel that way.  I don't feel Bush has taken this attitude either.  I believe from the day he stepped in office elected Democrats have done everything in their power to undermine him every chance they get because they didn't feel he was the legitimate president.  I don't feel that benefitted anyone in the country.  What I am seeing now is a lot of hatred by the opposition being directed at Bush for political purposes and I feel the victims on the Gulf coast are the ones being negatively affected.

I would like to see the Democrats offer to work with the administration to help during this time rather than trying to make power plays while people are still in need.  Although I am a Republican, I feel the overall attitude in Washington right now is destructive on both sides and is only getting worse.  A little less name calling and finger pointing would go a long way.

[NoOne=NBA=]

A little less name calling and finger pointing would go a long way.

That's going to be a little tough, considering that the Democrats are the ones who were actually RESPONSIBLE for the well-being of the people in Louisiana.
They have to finger point at SOMEONE to take scrutiny off of themselves, and the President is a good target.

The Democrat mayor of the town didn't get his people out BEFORE the storm hit, like he should have.
The Democrat governor didn't get her people mobilized quickly enough, NOR get the people out when the locals botched the evacuation, NOR did she communicate with the feds to give them any direction on what she wanted them to do.

Now they are making this a race issue, trying to show how badly Bush hates black people, so that nobody will see that THEY DIDN'T DO THEIR JOB!

The Feds were there within a couple days.
That has always been sufficient in the past.
The people in Carolina had to wait a week for them, a few disasters ago.
You didn't hear about that though because the people there were all helping their neighbors to recover--not looting, and raping, and pillaging, and shooting at their rescuers, like the people in New Orleans.

[shmokes]

Democrats worship satan and eat babies too.

[NoOne=NBA=]

I was just pointing out that, if they were to actually stop finger pointing and name calling for any length of time, it would quickly be discovered that the finger POINTERS (the mayor, the governor, alot of the people that were trapped, etc...) were actually responsible for their own predicament.

[Crazy Cooter]

I'll tell you what though, if I was appointed to a position that I had no experience... I'd "hit the books".  If I appointed someone that had no experience, I'd make damn sure they "hit the books".  I know there are a LOT of positions that are filled as political thank you's, it's (unfortunately) how our government works.  But positions like heading FEMA *should* go beyond partisanship.

Look at how every discussion we have boils into an arguement about dems vs repubublicans.  It shouldn't be that way.  We're all on the same team.  Clinton was a moron, Bush is a moron, they're all morons.  The problem is that elections are still viewed as High School popularity contests rather than an actual comparison of who is best suited for the job.

One of my biggest complaints about Bush is how he will not criticize himself.  He makes mistakes.  Everyone does.  I see the point about blaming Bush for appointing an idiot, but I don't know what idiots were there before.  That's why I'm upset at him for saying FEMA did a good job, not (entirely) for the actual appointment.  I just hope our next "choices" for President include someone that is actually smart and not part of some exclusive boys club like our recent choices have been.  If it were possible, I'd run myself.  Of course by not kissing a partisan butt, I'd never get any funding.

btw:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9266986/
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Friday that local and state officials shouldn

[ChadTower]

I was just pointing out that, if they were to actually stop finger pointing and name calling for any length of time, it would quickly be discovered that the finger POINTERS (the mayor, the governor, alot of the people that were trapped, etc...) were actually responsible for their own predicament.

Deny, delay, obfuscate. 

[ScoopKW]

No, that should read, "Deny, Tom DeLay, Obfuscate."

 

[Jabba]

Just heard this on the news...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050913/ap_on_go_ot/katrina_washington

[ChadTower]

Erm, was was the Iraqi guy there?  Is the Iraqi going to allocate US troops to help in the cleanup?