Is Foley really the devil..?? (Previously: RetroBlast is a traitor..??)

[Timstuff]

I feel right now the same way I did when Anakin joined Palpatine in Episode 3.

[nobody]

you are all over reacting far far too much. To me it seems like all Kevin is doing is trying to be impartial, if he wants to make retroblast into something that can be used as the resource for gaming reviews he cant be biased to one manufacturer.

[General Zod]

In reference to this entire thread

[Zakk]

this battle over the legalities of retrogaming stems soley from BYOAC, and those who decide to rake in huge profits from selling their custom cabs. !!

[Zakk]

However, I do suggest that the title of this thread be changed...it does sound mighty harsh.

[HoopstarsGarage]

However, I do suggest that the title of this thread be changed...it does sound mighty harsh.

Done - Now it is a question rather than a statement.. I apologise to those that thought this was an "attack" on Kevin..  Hopefully it will appease those that want to support someone who wants to support the person responsible who tried to take down MAME..

What do I mean...?  Imagine when Foley decides that Ultimarc or GGG are "unfair competition" and they are also taken down.

IMO, this is the beginning of the end..  and some of you want to put your head in the sand and ignore it.  Am I being too tough or over the top?  Time will tell, but I guarantee that things are not going to get any better for any of us..

[Crazy Cooter]

Its not like Ultracade is still trying to trademark Mame.

It's not like I'm still driving drunk... It's not like I'm still abducting kids... It's not like I'm still stealing that car...

The guy has done nothing but break laws and cause grief to this hobby.

[paigeoliver]

You know what, if Foley gave me a free Ultracade to review it, then I would take it, and review it. Period. I mean come on, anyone with any sense is going to accept a free $2000 product simply to review it.

Give me a free Ultracade and I will review the living stuff out of it.
Give me a free 1993 Ford Escort and I will review that as well.

I can give you my quick Ultracade review right now.

Overall it is a nice system, but the joysticks shipping with the kits and complete cabinets are absolute garbage, the company should consider installing higher quality joysticks. Oh, and the "custom" artwork on a lot of them is really terrible, specifically the "Arcade Legends" series, which is gaudier than any original cabinet I have ever seen.

[nobody]

You know what, if Foley gave me a free Ultracade to review it, then I would take it, and review it. Period. I mean come on, anyone with any sense is going to accept a free $2000 product simply to review it.

Give me a free Ultracade and I will review the living stuff out of it.
Give me a free 1993 Ford Escort and I will review that as well.

I can give you my quick Ultracade review right now.

Overall it is a nice system, but the joysticks shipping with the kits and complete cabinets are absolute garbage, the company should consider installing higher quality joysticks. Oh, and the "custom" artwork on a lot of them is really terrible, specifically the "Arcade Legends" series, which is gaudier than any original cabinet I have ever seen.

youve done it now, there goes your free ultracade. reviewed it without a financial incentive

[M3talhead]

"In Kevin we trust...."

[DarkKobold]

What really irks me about this thing is justifying what Foley did.

It's not like he applied for the trademark, waited for it to be confirmed, and then only went after auctions with pirated Roms. Nope.

He, with only an application, mailed anyone using the MAME name, and began to shut down auctions, and extort money. Look at the case of Emdkay. He asked for money for the use of the MAME logo, and as soon as someone chimmed in that it was illegal, the bird switched his tune.

To justify anything that man does is to minimize the evils that he has tried to commit. Foley is by no means someone who should be dealt with. Instead of reviewing his products, an upstanding and important member of the community should support ALL MEMBERS of the community. Foley is not a member of the community. He has attacked it, and it's members. 

An example of Foley's lying and extortion.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,32730.msg276462.html#msg276462

That post makes me sick.

[edit for post and emdkay]

[KevSteele]

Wow, I go "offline" for a weekend to recharge, and something like this happens!

[pointdablame]

Paige is the only one in this whole thread who hit the nail on the head.

No one on this page who is even REMOTELY interested in arcade controls/games would turn down a free Ultracade machine to review.  Yeah, boast about your morals all you want, but if I showed up at your door with a free machine to review with and do with as you please, I think everyone would ask me if I wanted some coffee or some help getting it in the door.

Give Kevin a break... "in bed with the enemy"?!?!?!  GOd, calm down.  He's doing a review.  It'll be an overly positive review like everything else on RetroBlast, and Kevin will have had some fun reviewing the product.  End of story.  I would do the same thing.  If you don't like it, you don't have to read it.  That doesn't negate everything that Kevin has done for the community in the past.

And I'm sure my post will be followed with tons of "I wouldn't review it" posts, but frankly.. I don't believe you

[KevSteele]

Heck, just to clarify: I am not getting an UltraCade to review. Heck, I'm not getting anything at all - I just agreed to consider reviewing products from UltraCade, primairly their encoder/video adapters.

As for the overly-positive reviews: yes, I get enthusastic. But have you considered the fact that I may have actually liked most the products I've reviewed? I realize that you may not agree with my reviews, but I've never claimed to be anything other than an arcade enthusiast sharing my opinions.

With any review you need to understand a bit about the reviewer, then filter the review through what you know about them.

Kevin

[Zakk]

And I'm sure my post will be followed with tons of "I wouldn't review it" posts, but frankly.. I don't believe you

As god is my witness, I would never take anything from Dave Fooly.

[Tommy Boy]

I disagree with the general doom and gloom that I've been reading lately re the MAME community getting squashed by corporates.  I work in business development for a top-5 (US) financial services company.  Part of my job is to maximize revenues from our intellectual property portfolio, which includes licensing deals and finding competitive products that infringe our IP.  I'm not a lawyer but I am the lead business guy on the team and I understand well how the business strategy works in this space.

The fact that none of the heavyweights, such as Namco, have bothered to send cease and desist notices to MAMEdev lo these many years (8.5 years?) speaks volumes to me.  Further, when Foley confered with his lawyer and made his move to do something, did he go after the free ROM distribution mechanisms?  No, because he can't.  Only the copyright owners can shut down the ROM pirating.  And you better believe that Foley has been chirping in their ears to do something about it (in light of the fact that he's paid them a pile of money for licenses.)

Why won't Namco et al go after the ROMz sources with a legal vengeance?  My theory is that they can't make a business case work for it.  Lawyers are DAMN expensive.  Everyone reading these words who wants a full MAME rom set probably already owns one.  The genie is out of the bottle on that one.

So if the heavyweights decide to burn a few million and start the legal saber rattling, how many new sales opportunities will that create for them?  Where's the revenue?  Yes, they might sell a few thousand units to honest people who want to be legit.  But really, with all of the free roms out there, how many units are they going to sell?  I doubt the potential demand is worth the effort and expense of pursuing the pirates -- or else they'd be doing it.

Foley is the proof of the theory.  He's a nickel-and-dimer who got pinched by paying for licenses that the rights owners won't enforce.  And where is iRoms?  According to Kevin, Foley has grown silent on that issue.  Could it be because even slow Foley has realized that you can't make money as a middle man in that space if the copyright owners continue to look the other way on piracy?  In any event, it seems like Foley's efforts are now being directed towards the hardware business...that should tell us something.

In any event, I could be wrong.  Aaron and company could get hit with a handful of desist orders tomorrow.  But I doubt it...

[Kremmit]

Kev-

You officially have my approval to review any product from any manufacturer on your site.



Of course, since it's YOUR site, you probably don't NEED approval from me or any of these weenies that are ragging on you.   

[MonitorGuru]

I think Kev summed it up best.

Nearly everyone running MAME has ILLEGAL roms.

If you're not 100% legal and clean, then you have no right to complain about anything that is happening regarding the legalities behind Mame. (And this statement does NOT provide support to Foley's actions, but DOES support MameDev's actions)

The corner has been turned, and I believe Mame, in it's present form, will be drastically different soon. Be it from MameDev stopping work/changing work, Namco/Nintendo/Sammy/Atari suing the pants off of MameDev/eBay/web sites, or something else. But it WILL change and has already started.

[dweebs0r]

Ok, I withdraw my comments about Kevin being a sell out.

I guess I over reacted a bit.

I'm deleting my previous posts.

I do, however, still blame Foley for potentially causing a snowball effect that could easily cause Mame to be more trouble than its worth to the MameDevs.

God, I hope not...

-Dweebs

[DarkKobold]

I asked him about the MAME trademark move, the demand for royalties from marquee printers, and more. He never adequately answered my questions about the infringement of the MAME logo, but I can see at least where his grab for the MAME phrase could be considered legal (not ethical, but perhaps legal), since it was not being used commercially.

Unethical, and borderline legal, since any art created is auto-copyrighted.  Disgusting! 

I asked him about the demands of royalties: he explained that his requests for royalties were for the use of the characters and artwork that he has obtained an exclusive license for (at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars). Seemed fair enough.

But the MAME art was what he was seeking royalties. It is the job of the art owners, not Foley, to go after infringers.  He never said once to Emdkay that he was trying to collect royalties on things that he was paying royalties on. Infact, just because HE licensed them, doesn't mean he is allowed to collect royalties. The only royalties are paid to the original owners.

I also stand by what I said in my editorial: MAME has gotten too popular to survive as it is now, and we are going to have to adapt or be sued out of existence. It doesn't even matter who is right and who is wrong: no one involved in the project can survive a corporate lawsuit of any kind (none of the companies or MAMEdevs are rolling in cash, I'm certain).

This just isn't true. Look at Bleem! for example. Sony sued them, and lost.  Precedent means a lot in the justice system. Second of all, MAME is done to some degree. The source is out there; the damage is done. New updates make minor improvements to the old favourites here and there. However, the majority of updates are for obsecure titles.  Nothing will destroy the MAME that is here and now. Illegal roms are readily available. Its so simple, a child can do it, and lets face it, does on a normal basis. That distribution system isn't going anywhere.

Finally, there isn't a single ounce of information on BYOAC to lead people to find illegal roms. And as long as Saint keeps us on the right side of the law, we are protected.

I've asked him about the status of his announced i-ROMs service, but David Foley's continued silence about it is also a red flag for me. I want legal ROMs to be available - it's the only way MAME will appear legitimate in the eyes of the industry and the only way we can avoid further legal entaglements.

Corporations are not warm and fuzzy entities... If they decide to go after mame, they will. They won't care much for the legitimate ways to get roms. Remember when they went after the designer of MP3s because napster made it possible to easily pirate? They didn't care about the few legal services that existed at the time.

Anyway, I hope this helps explain my position. I realize not everyone will agree, and that's fine. Just don't go chalking my position up to some sort of greasy sellout...

I hope you realize that I don't consider you a sellout, I just feel that Foley was trying to pull another fast one on you. It seemed that he succeeded with his brand of circular logic.  I'd rather you not support him, as a review, good or bad, is free advertisement for a product.

[Timstuff]

I think that if the copyright owners of ROMs ever do take notice to MAME then it will be similar to what happened with the MP3 sharing craze. Napster was really popular and many people used it, but when legal problems showed up they were eventually able to come back as a legitimate pay-per-download service and has reached an even broader audience. I do know that the days of free roms are probably numbered, but that doesn't mean all bad things. One day we may well have a service similar to I-Tunes or the current Napster where ROMs from all our popular arcade games are avalible to download for about a buck to two bucks a piece, like how Star Roms is going. Game publishers are noticing that it's not just commercially avalible PC ports, but the raw ROMs themselves that are generating alot of demand.

Foley may be a big fat jerk, but in terms of legality he's 100% legit. Most people who run MAME are roughly 25% legit, but more often than not less than 1%. It's only logical that as MAME becomes more popular eventually we're gonna have to start paying money for it. That's just plain how free stuff always works. It can be free in the short run, but eventually someone's gonna have to pay for it, and usually it's the people who use it.

[CheffoJeffo]

I also stand by what I said in my editorial: MAME has gotten too popular to survive as it is now, and we are going to have to adapt or be sued out of existence. It doesn't even matter who is right and who is wrong: no one involved in the project can survive a corporate lawsuit of any kind (none of the companies or MAMEdevs are rolling in cash, I'm certain).

This just isn't true. Look at Bleem! for example. Sony sued them, and lost.  Precedent means a lot in the justice system.

Can the next person who chooses to cites Bleem! vs Sony PLEASE remember that Sony did NOT lose  ... they did not win the majority of the legal cases, but Bleem! is gone.

Sony got exactly what they wanted -- they won and it didn't cost them all that much.

Can we stop pointing to these cases (there were, after all, more than one) as a reason not to worry about MAME, because it is the perfect example of what can happen.

Cheers.

[Tommy Boy]

As long as we're at it, can we also stop using analogies to the music industry while discussing this issue.  The retrogaming roms market is not even 1/1000th the size of the music business.  The economics are entirely different.

It means that the business and legal models that worked for music do not necessarily hold for this market. There isn't enough market potential to pay for the litigation and jockeying that we've seen in music distribution over the past 5 years or so.

[Tommy Boy]

One more point:  Kevin had a news item on his site last week saying that Nintendo was GIVING AWAY its retro titles with its console emulation package for the new Revolution box.

What does that tell you about Nintendo's estimation of the retrogaming opportunity?  It's a freebie toss-in.  Nintendo will likely not be pursuing vigorous litigation for infringement of its retro titles.

Guys, if the heavyweights were interested in this market, we would already have an iRoms-like service (or more than one!).  And the piracy would have been cleaned up by them years ago.

[KevSteele]

Can the next person who chooses to cites Bleem! vs Sony PLEASE remember that Sony did NOT lose

[AlanS17]

I hope the Ultracade does get reviewed. That way the front-end can be reverse-engineered.

[CheffoJeffo]

That's kind of my point - all it takes is one lawsuit. Are the MAMEdevs a corporation? Do they have a nice, comfy "legal slush fund"? Can they just put the "company" in bankruptcy protection should a lawsuit come after them and their personal assets?

No. And if there is a lawsuit, MAME stops.

I agree entirely ... and would welcome a legal ROM licensing arrangement (I won't be happy if it benefits Mr Foley, but there is the greater good to consider).

Further, there is an issue that folks seem to be missing ... since these companies are already licensing the ROMs out to people like Mr. Foley, they may have an obligation to protect the value of that license (either on their own accord, or at the insistence of their licensees), even if only through a small lawsuit.

That would be enough to do it ... it is simple utility theory ... you would have to be crazy to try and mount a legal defense on behalf of something that you do as a hobby, for no money and which has been the cause of so much aggravation.

Cheers.

[paigeoliver]

Let Mame stop, it is finished anyway. Let someone else emulate the newer titles sometime in the future (and they will, they always do). Nesticle hasn't been updated in like 8 years, but my copy still works.

[GGKoul]

Let Mame stop, it is finished anyway. Let someone else emulate the newer titles sometime in the future (and they will, they always do). Nesticle hasn't been updated in like 8 years, but my copy still works.

So true...

[IntruderAlert]

By the way Kev,
Do you plan to ever do a review of the GP-Wiz49 ?
and possibly revise your KEYWIZ MAX 1.5 review?
I believe Tiger-Heli posted this for you some time ago:
http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/rebuttal.htm

[SOAPboy]

Um.. id gladly review one of his machines.. if the guy is willing to send me a FREE MACHINE/PARTS/GAMES , ill gladly write a review all about it for whatever site wanted it..

Why?

Its free stuff first off..

Secondly, even if the guy is a ---tallywhacker---, the product might be great, or might be total crap..

Lastly, you got to look at this with less bias, ok, hes a --missioncontrol--, but that dont mean his product isnt worth looking at.. Sure its expensive, sure hes the devil, but a free machine/parts/ect, for a few hours of your time, to me, is worth it a 100%..

[pointdablame]

Heck, just to clarify: I am not getting an UltraCade to review. Heck, I'm not getting anything at all - I just agreed to consider reviewing products from UltraCade, primairly their encoder/video adapters.

As for the overly-positive reviews: yes, I get enthusastic. But have you considered the fact that I may have actually liked most the products I've reviewed? I realize that you may not agree with my reviews, but I've never claimed to be anything other than an arcade enthusiast sharing my opinions.

With any review you need to understand a bit about the reviewer, then filter the review through what you know about them.

Kevin

Not that you were pointing me at (at least i don't think you were ) but I wasn't knocking you for being overly positive.. just stating it.  I could care less, and in fact... I hope you DO enjoy everything you review.

I love getting things that I enjoy, so even if you are getting these simply to review... all the more to ya if you can get some enjoyment out of it.

I just think people totally overreacted to the fact that you MIGHT sometime in the future POSSIBLY review some product from Ultracade.  Shoot, if he sends you a bunch of stuff and you can't review it, send it my way.. I"ll be glad to review it for ya LOL.  Playing with new stuff is fun no matter where it comes from in my book.

[DarkKobold]

Can the next person who chooses to cites Bleem! vs Sony PLEASE remember that Sony did NOT lose  ... they did not win the majority of the legal cases, but Bleem! is gone.

Sony got exactly what they wanted -- they won and it didn't cost them all that much.

Can we stop pointing to these cases (there were, after all, more than one) as a reason not to worry about MAME, because it is the perfect example of what can happen.

Cheers.

Ok, hell no.  Sony lost in the courts. Sony won, by threating to not allow retailers selling Bleem! to sell PS2, right before it came out.

Damn. Know your facts.

[Xphile]

I, for one, welcome our new MAME(tm) overlords!

In Russia, MAME(tm) welcomes *you*

lol, that sounds so familiar, but I can't place it...I picture it coming from the four eyed alien evil genius on "lilo and stich', but that's not it, is it?

[Voodooray]

When you are sat at home tonite in front of the TV, have a think about what you know of the guy who's company made it. He maybe a total jerk but you don't care because it's a good TV.
Now this may be a bit simplistic but you see the point i am trying to make.
People talk about principles, but refuse to review something because you don't like the guy and your review credibility is gone in an instant. Reviews must be impartial, othrwise why bother? And a hard fact of life is that at some time you will review something that will leave a nasty taste in your mouth.
As other people have mentioned, it seems strange people taking the moral high ground when they are using illegal roms. Please don't take this as backing for Mr Foley, i really dislike the guy, but a valid point doesn't become less valid because you don't like the person making it.

Just my two peneth, not an attack on anybody.

[Voodooray]

Quote from: quarterback on June 11, 2005, 07:34:55 PM
Quote from: saint on June 11, 2005, 06:38:18 PM
I, for one, welcome our new MAME(tm) overlords!

In Russia, MAME(tm) welcomes *you*


lol, that sounds so familiar, but I can't place it...I picture it coming from the four eyed alien evil genius on "lilo and stich', but that's not it, is it?

I don't know if it came from there origionally but both quotes are from the Simpsons.

The first from where Homer goes into space and the second, where they go to Branson.
not that i'm in any way Simpsons obsessed you understand.

Voodoo Ray.

[Tiger-Heli]

As for the overly-positive reviews: yes, I get enthusastic. But have you considered the fact that I may have actually liked most the products I've reviewed? I realize that you may not agree with my reviews, but I've never claimed to be anything other than an arcade enthusiast sharing my opinions.

With any review you need to understand a bit about the reviewer, then filter the review through what you know about them.

As someone who's been critical of Kevin being overly positive in his reviews in the past, let me give some personal experience that may help some of you out.  Look at my comments in the TOKN testing thread. (especially if you have been following it.).

My initial comments were VERY negative, because I was expecting it to allow all 16 inputs to be used simultaneously.  Then I figured out that the unit COULD be used to do basically what it claim.  Those posts were more positive on the unit than they should be.  Later I backed away and looked at the big picture, and came away with something like "Yes, you COULD use this in a basic CP, but when would it be your first choice."

My point is that in reviewing hardware, you generally want it to perform well, or want to make it perform well, and sometimes that clouds your logic.

[KevSteele]

By the way Kev,
Do you plan to ever do a review of the GP-Wiz49 ?
and possibly revise your KEYWIZ MAX 1.5 review?
I believe Tiger-Heli posted this for you some time ago:
http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/rebuttal.htm

I'm making arrangements for someone else to do a review of the GP-Wiz49, since Randy wants nothing to do with me because of the KeyWiz Max review.

And no, I have no plans to revise my review of the KeyWiz Max. I just re-read it recently, and I stand by that review, Tiger-Heli's rebuttal or not (although I did fix the typos he pointed out  )

Kevin

[General Zod]

this battle over the legalities of retrogaming stems soley from BYOAC, and those who decide to rake in huge profits from selling their custom cabs. !! 

To act surprised or bitter against another gamer just because they've supposedly "made a deal with devil", is outright foolish. When the smoke clears, and the game is over, the only one's you'll be shouting devil to, are the greedy idiotic members who decided to profit from selling their MAME cabs.

Whaaa?  You are so far out in left field it's crazy.  You're blaming the entire fiasco on people who sell cabinets???  Pass around some of what you're smoking Zod.  To point the finger at BYOAC is absurd, this board is DESIGNED to teach people to build their own cabs, so that they don't have to pay say $4000 for a pile of wood and plastic.

The rest of this thread is more or less a discussion, this is plain old trolling.

WHOA !! Who the <censored> are you??? After glancing about your webpage, I can see why you made those comments towards me. You, like a handful of others, are only contributing to very problem that's being discussed here.

Schooltime, ol' Zakk goodbuddy!! A problem just doesn't arise, it builds gradually over time, then usually explodes right in your face. If you <censored> long enough to realize it's not only the $4000 cabs that ruined it, but also the $500-$2000 cabs from the so-called hobbyist of our community, you might actually hear a ring of truth from my original comments.

Blaming Foley, KevSteele, and or even the MAMEdevs at this point in the game is ridiculous. One has to look back to the beginning, the very reason we're talking about this right now.  My original post was only depicting the ROOT of the problem.

Passing the Foley's, and all other commercial co's, I seem to remember quite a few that started the ball rolling in the BST forum. Come on, you remember it too...." How much do you think I can get for said MAMEcab? "

Come on ZAKK, you've been here a while just like me, remember those posts? Who'da thunk they'd eventually ruin it for the lot of us ? 

Go put that in your <censored> BLOG , will ya !!! 

Censored by saint. Three times in one message. This is the road to being banned - chill out and watch your language.

[Tiger-Heli]

Sit down and think about the whole MAME(tm) fiasco that he started.  How was that *ever* going to do him any good?  Does pulling cabinets and marquee auctions off of ebay do anything to make his licenses worth more?  No.

It doesn't make his licenses worth more, but it does make his cabinets sell better if they're still advertised and his competitors aren't.

Here's one last thought: How is the iRoms idea any better of a money maker for him if he doesn't get the copyrights owners to enforce their rights.  Will the copyrights owners incur the cost of litigation to enforce their rights without a revenue stream from iRoms sufficient to pay the legal bills plus a profit?  I don't know the answer to this last question but I have my own theory...

If the ROMS are $300 to $500 per game (as his current titles are) and if he actually SELLS any, that generates a pretty good revenue stream for litigation.