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MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
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Crazy Cooter:
Or the MAME dev's just stop working with MAME to stay out of court and avoid a 6-figure lawyers bill.

Just because emu's were determined legal once before doesn't mean that Namco/Capcom et. al. won't spend money to "revisit the issue".  Right now, 99.9% of people just play with this stuff at home.  The gaming companies don't care enough to go to court and rehash this out.  Turn it into a cash producing venture by making it easy to drop games on location and it's a whole different animal.
KenToad:

--- Quote from: Chris on June 06, 2005, 01:59:47 pm ---
--- Quote from: Crazy Cooter on June 06, 2005, 01:43:35 pm ---The BLEEM! emulator went through court (vs. Sony) and it was determined that emus are legal.

--- End quote ---
It's possible, though, that some or all of the encryption-breaking stuff in MAME is illegal.

--- End quote ---

I read a book about Nintendo's business history.  They have been in several lawsuits involving decryption, most memorably with Tengen.  You guys in your late twenties, like myself, will probably remember that Tengen made a far superior version of Tetris and some other cool games for the NES that were not given the official Nintendo seal of "quality."  Nintendo sued and, if I remember correctly, it came out that Tengen had used reverse engineering and were forced to stop selling games.  Am I totally forgetting what went on there?  There were also a couple of other game companies that were sued and I can't remember the specific details here at work.  Also, I seem to have lost the book recently.  It had Mario flying on the front.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.  Have the MameDevs addressed these issues legitimately, especially with the recent decryption of the golf games and some other very profitable franchises (Tekken)? 

Cheers,
KenToad 

*Edit* 2 new replies while I was typing


--- Quote from: Tiger-Heli on June 06, 2005, 02:10:40 pm ---
--- Quote from: KenToad on June 06, 2005, 02:03:15 pm ---Yeah, that makes sense to me, but, if you're arguing that this guy shouldn't sell Mame related merchandise and that guy shouldn't make an FE that passes coin count, how does that relate to Mame and the posterity issue raised by Haze?

--- End quote ---
Okay - look at this (fairly possible) scenario.

Guy makes FE that passes coin count.

Arcade operators build arcade emulator cabs using MAME and the new FE.

Namco sues arcade operators, FE author and MAME dev team b/c their Reunion game sales are sliding due to everyone using cheaper arcade emulator cabs with MAME and new FE.

MAME is found to infringe on NAMCO's rights (probably under the clause above) and all work on the project is ordered ceased.

Obscure bootleg board that Haze or Rb or other MAMEdev's were working on will never legally be decoded and documented, so posterity loses out.

Got it?

--- End quote ---

Tiger-Heli, so your argument is that Mame wouldn't be judged legal if it can be used in a commercial setting at all?  The scenario you refer to is very debatable as to how simple it would be to implement right now.  It seems like you guys are worried about the fuse on this bomb, blowing on it when you know it will explode at any moment.  I support Mame wholeheartedly, but I don't accept the argument that it is not already an underground project.  No users who support the continued development of this project want it to get any bigger, because they are afraid that it can be challenged at any moment.  Given that reasoning, allowing the continued development of projects relating to Mame shouldn't be lorded over by anyone, least of all the developers of Mame, since the whole project is on shaky legal ground anyway. 

I support this project.  It just seems like some folks are justifying both ends of the debate, i.e. certain projects and/or commercial ventures shouldn't be allowed to continue because the advancement of accurate emulation must be allowed to continue, no matter that everyone seems to agree that many of the companies who own the rights to these boards do not agree.

Hope I didn't piss anyone off, least of all you, Tiger-Heli.  I just want this argument to continue to develop.  I think these are some of the most important issues concerning emulation today.  I welcome challenges to my arguments and especially further info.  I will check on the link you provided, Tiger-Heli, after I type this.  Thanks for that. 

Cheers,
KenToad
Tiger-Heli:

--- Quote from: Crazy Cooter on June 06, 2005, 02:21:35 pm ---Or the MAME dev's just stop working with MAME to stay out of court and avoid a 6-figure lawyers bill.
Just because emu's were determined legal once before doesn't mean that Namco/Capcom et. al. won't spend money to "revisit the issue".  Right now, 99.9% of people just play with this stuff at home.  The gaming companies don't care enough to go to court and rehash this out.  Turn it into a cash producing venture by making it easy to drop games on location and it's a whole different animal.

--- End quote ---
Right, plus currently it's small fish - i.e. Namco isn't going to spend $35,000 in court costs to go after a BYOAC member with a cab in their basement and get a judgement that could make them file bankruptcy which doesn't make them any money.

Give them a profitable corporation that they can go after . . .
Chris:

--- Quote from: KenToad on June 06, 2005, 02:25:58 pm ---Have the MameDevs addressed these issues legitimately, especially with the recent decryption of the golf games and some other very profitable franchises (Tekken)?
--- End quote ---
Tiger-Heli:

--- Quote from: KenToad on June 06, 2005, 02:25:58 pm ---Nintendo sued and, if I remember correctly, it came out that Tengen had used reverse engineering and were forced to stop selling games.

--- End quote ---
I only vaguely remember the issue, but I think that's your answer.  Tengen wasn't in trouble for reverse engineering, but for selling games based on the reverse engineering.  MAME really isn't selling anything (although providing the same things free of charge would be the same thing, so MAME's not out of the soup).

--- Quote ---Tiger-Heli, so your argument is that Mame wouldn't be judged legal if it can be used in a commercial setting at all?

--- End quote ---
Well, it's hard to say what is judged legal until someone judges it legal in court.  I think if it is used in a commercial setting, it could be illegal, not necessarily just because it could be used.  For example, JC Whitney used to (still does?) sell "test" pipes that were the exact size and mounting flange as your cars catalytic converter.  These were legal but installing them on your car in place of the cat was not...

--- Quote ---The scenario you refer to is very debatable as to how simple it would be to implement right now.  It seems like you guys are worried about the fuse on this bomb, blowing on it when you know it will explode at any moment.  I support Mame wholeheartedly, but I don't accept the argument that it is not already an underground project.  No users who support the continued development of this project want it to get any bigger, because they are afraid that it can be challenged at any moment.  Given that reasoning, allowing the continued development of projects relating to Mame shouldn't be lorded over by anyone, least of all the developers of Mame, since the whole project is on shaky legal ground anyway. 

I support this project.  It just seems like some folks are justifying both ends of the debate, i.e. certain projects and/or commercial ventures shouldn't be allowed to continue because the advancement of accurate emulation must be allowed to continue, no matter that everyone seems to agree that many of the companies who own the rights to these boards do not agree.

--- End quote ---
I don't quite follow your logic here.  If you are talking about encoders and steering wheels on E-bay, MAMEdev isn't trying to stop development of them, just not including MAME in the auction title.  If you are talking about FE's with coin counters, these either violate (in a commercial setting) or serve virtually no other purpose than to make it easier to violate the license of MAME.

And personally, whether or not it is used commercially, I think it could be shut down tomorrow on legal grounds, but I hope it isn't b/c I like playing the gameses.

--- Quote ---Hope I didn't piss anyone off, least of all you, Tiger-Heli.

--- End quote ---
Takes a lot to piss me off, but I missed some of what you were trying to argue.
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