MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!

[KevSteele]

I got a copy of a letter today that is being sent by Aaron Giles to vendors on eBay whose auctions got yanked today because of "trademark violations":

From: Aaron Giles [mailto:ebay@mamedev.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:25 AM
Cc: Nicola Salmoria
Subject: Re: VeRO NOTICE: eBay Listing(s) Removed - VeRO Program

We are in the process of auditing auctions that violate the MAME trademark.
We are concerned about a number of auctions which attempt to associate themselves with MAME without having any formal connection to the project.

Based on the abuses we have seen in the auctions on eBay and elsewhere, we are attempting to define rules surrounding the usage of the MAME trademark.

Below is what we currently have defined.

1. You cannot use the trademark "MAME" in the title of your auction.

2. You may use the phrases "compatible with MAME(tm)" or "works with MAME(tm)", but you may only mention it once in your ad.

3. You must not use the trademark "MAME" in the name of your product. This only implies official endorsement and we do not endorse products.

4. You must not use the MAME logo under any circumstances; this again implies official endorsement.

5. You cannot include MAME or a derivative thereof with what you are selling unless you obtain permission. At this time, we are still discussing under what circumstances, if any, MAME will be permitted to be included with commercial products. If you have already requested permission, your request will be answered once a decision has been made.

6. You must not include any unlicensed game software (ROMs or CHDs) or artwork with your product. Furthermore, you must not provide information to those who purchase your product concerning where to obtain unlicensed game software.

7. You must not mislead the buyer with pictures or lists of games that do not come included with your product. Any games or pictures you use must refer to properly-licensed games that are included with the purchased product.

Please note that the situation is evolving, and we will likely be modifying/expanding these rules based on future violations we discover. For more information on the license and trademark, please see http://mamedev.com.

Thank you for your cooperation,
The MAME Development Team



This is troubling to me for several reasons, not the least of which is that many of the products pulled do not use or sell MAME in any way (such as keyboard encoders).

Just using the word "MAME" in the auction title is enough to get your product yanked, apparently, which seems insane to me. How is "Keyboard encoder for MAME" or "Cabinet for MAME" damaging the MAME name?

I'm really beginning to wonder what the terms of the "agreement" between David Foley and the MAMEdevs was...

Kevin

[quarterback]

How is "Keyboard encoder for MAME" or "Cabinet for MAME" damaging the MAME name?

Nobody claims it's 'damaging the MAME name', it's just an "attempt to associate themselves with MAME without having any formal connection to the project".

I'm really beginning to wonder what the terms of the "agreement" between David Foley and the MAMEdevs was...

My guess is that it has more to do with the agreement between the MAMEdevs and their copyright lawyers.

[monkeybomb]

I would love to hear from patent doc on this one.  I'm a little confused as to why there isn't a way to use the MAME name anyway.  Can HP pull auctions for ink cartridges that are claiming to work with one of their printers?  Can Ford pull an auction for floormats if the are listed as fitting nice in a ford mustang?  Or is that the whole point of a TM and those companies just choose not to do this?  There are leagal uses for MAME and leagal uses for the KB16 with MAME.  Why can't he say so without the mamedev permission?

[RayB]

That's still over-reaching. If something is compatible with MAME, then it's compatible with MAME.

[KevSteele]

How is "Keyboard encoder for MAME" or "Cabinet for MAME" damaging the MAME name?

Nobody claims it's 'damaging the MAME name', it's just an "attempt to associate themselves with MAME without having any formal connection to the project".

Pulling auctions because they have the word "MAME" in the title is a bit overzealous, don't you think? If you create a product that can be used with MAME, shouldn't you be able to mention that fact? People ususally search auctions by the title, and pulling MAME out of the title is going to have an impact.

Now if someone is selling something illegal, or that contains the MAME code, I agree - pull the auction. But pulling an auction with no warning just because someone says "Encoder for MAME" or "MAME cabinet" is over the line, IMHO.

Kevin

[nobody]

I'm really beginning to wonder what the terms of the "agreement" between David Foley and the MAMEdevs was...

My guess is that it has more to do with the agreement between the MAMEdevs and their copyright lawyers.

yeah maybe allowing such free use of the MAME tradmark somehow undermines their copyright

[Chris]

I've been generally supportive of the mamedev's flexing of their trademark muscle, but this sucks.

[KevSteele]

I'm really beginning to wonder what the terms of the "agreement" between David Foley and the MAMEdevs was...

My guess is that it has more to do with the agreement between the MAMEdevs and their copyright lawyers.

yeah maybe allowing such free use of the MAME tradmark somehow undermines their copyright

If you mean "trademark" instead of copyright, perhaps - trademarks must be protected, while copyright does not require enforcement.

Still, if IBM had been able to squash any company that said they were "IBM Compatible", where would we be today.

And how can MAMEdevs say things like:

you can only use "MAME-compatible" once in your ad

...does trademark enforcement have that much legal power?

[divemaster127]

Let say a person wants to sell their Dell computer on ebay so now you cant use the word dell, I think this is crazy & someone has to much free time on there hands, I have looked at the ebay auctions nobody is selling roms so what harm is being is being done,  I fill like Mr. Foley still haunts us.
thanks

[menace]

I see they are also cracking down on using artwork or mentioning roms--so now they have gone from free reign to way over reaching their mandate.  If I want to stick a picture of pacman on my cab then let namco come after me--the mamedevs have no legal footing on that point--its just being silly.  And I agree that mentioning it once is a tad silly (even if once is enough) I've never seen anything that limits the number of times of useage within a document--if you have permission, you have permission, there isn't any of this counting crap.

And like others i applaud them protecting the mame (tm) name but to adopt a big brother attitude is pretty lame.

[DreamArcades]

I wish MAME(TM) would just go Open Source! So we could avoid all this nonsense.


MAME(TM) is a pending trademark of Nicola Salmoria. Dream Arcades LLC, is not affiliated with MAME(TM) or the MAMEdev team.

^{<edited to comply with new MAME(TM) usage rules.>}

[Q*Bert_OP]

@!#!$@$%^%&^%((*&^$%T&$%      or whatever Q*Bert says!

[CheffoJeffo]

I think it is a little early to ascribe motives to the MAMEdevs.

Their priority is (and probably should be) to protect the project, not to make it easy for us to build/sell cabinets and play loads of games. I suspect that those two issues are beginning to diverge and that the latter is threatening the safety of the project (at least in the minds of the lawyers).

I thought that there were general fair use terms that covered trademarks and would be curious to know how these new limitations compare to fair use provisions.

Cheers.

[RandyT]

IANAL, but there is a little thing known as "fair use" that may or may not be applicable here.

Of course, lawsuits can be filed just because someone has a bad morning, so it all boils down to how far one wants to take something based on legal principle.  It also won't matter when they come to yank your auction. So as long as eBay takes the stand of not taking a stand, IP owners can do whatever they want there.

RandyT

[CheffoJeffo]

It also won't matter when they come to yank your auction, so as long as eBay takes the stand of not taking a stand, IP owners can do whatever they want there.

Perhaps the most relevant statement on the entire issue to date.

Cheers.

[monkeybomb]

It seems like it would still mean a lot to Mameroom.com , but yeah it realy is up to e-bay.

[AlanS17]

Maybe the MAME team is just concerned that this exposure isn't such a great idea in general. When people start using MAME to make money it could wake up game makers.

[Hoagie_one]

Maybe the MAME team is just concerned that this exposure isn't such a great idea in general. When people start using MAME to make money it could wake up game makers.

which could be a good thing....because then maybe then they would start wanting to get a piece of teh action and start selling roms or a license to use a rom.

[monkeybomb]

yeah but nintendo wanted $25 per classic for the gba.  If the rates are outrageous then it won't make a difference and everyone will still pirate.




MAME  MAME  MAME  MAME MAME  MAME  MAME

This post is available for auction.

[Tiger-Heli]

which could be a good thing....because then maybe then they would start wanting to get a piece of teh action and start selling roms or a license to use a rom.

And exactly WHY would THAT be a good thing

[monkeybomb]

Because it would leagalize and legitimize the whole hobby. 

[divemaster127]

This is going to change nothing, within a week or so the auctions will all be back up with the word mame, & if not the auctions will still be there, sometimes the mamedev's forget without the followers this project would be dead, maybe its time a select few came out of the clouds...

[nobody]

Maybe the MAME team is just concerned that this exposure isn't such a great idea in general. When people start using MAME to make money it could wake up game makers.

i think this would be the most logical explanation, at the moment MAME isnt massive money (compared to alot of related things) and its spread over lots of different vendors. My guess is companies dont mind alot of the stuff since alot of the time people are buying their old cabinets anyway. Howver if 5 jillion people make scratch built cabs and load up 5,000 ROMS they are going to start buying up the rights to all the old games and come down on the free download sites like a ton of bricks. Then we are all going to have to pay a shitload for every single game we buy

[Hoagie_one]

which could be a good thing....because then maybe then they would start wanting to get a piece of teh action and start selling roms or a license to use a rom.

And exactly WHY would THAT be a good thing

if more companies offered legitimate sources for their old games, it would add a legitimacy to the Mame process.

[nobody]

which could be a good thing....because then maybe then they would start wanting to get a piece of teh action and start selling roms or a license to use a rom.

And exactly WHY would THAT be a good thing

if more companies offered legitimate sources for their old games, it would add a legitimacy to the Mame process.  people could make money selling cabs.  Companies would make money selling rom sets legally.  Even teh Mame devs could start making money legally and still continue the project.

Then we wont all have to go around acting like we dont pirate or something.

but it would end up that as more money gets involved the more companies will be bought up by the giants and well end up with about 3 companies controlling the market

[Hoagie_one]

so?

[divemaster127]

I read Kevins post at retroblast.com, & I agree 100% with him, how is this harming mame's business by someone selling a keyboard encoder, or a button, I read a email some guy was selling gas pedals & had his auction pulled, this is really pushing it & like kevin stated how is this harming mame, I think the dev's owe a answer

[Tahnok]

I can see them not wanting you to include MAME or not use the logo, but not allowing you to mention it (more than once)?!

Not using "MAME" on ebay means fewer people buying cabs. Fewer people buying cabs means fewer people downloading and contributing to MAME. I don't see how this benefits them.

[quarterback]

But pulling an auction with no warning just because someone says "Encoder for MAME" or "MAME cabinet" is over the line, IMHO.

I agree that there seems to be some overreaching here as far at any use of the word MAME at all, but I would NOT put the phrases "MAME cabinet" and "Encoder for MAME" (or more specifically "compatible with MAME") in the same category.

"MAME cabinet" implies something that "compatible with MAME(tm)" (or "Encoder for MAME") does not. Which is why (I presume) they will allow you to say "compatible with MAME(tm)" but you are not allowed to just haphazardly include the word "MAME" in your acution title.

[Q*Bert_OP]

Is Mame gonna be another Ultracade Ultrapoo???

[quarterback]

how is this harming mame's business by someone selling a keyboard encoder, or a button

Not using "MAME" on ebay means fewer people buying cabs. Fewer people buying cabs means fewer people downloading and contributing to MAME. I don't see how this benefits them.

I think you all are completely misinterpreting the mamedev's motives here.

[AlanS17]

I think the dev's owe a answer

I think the devs owe nothing. They could just as easily pack it up and call it quits, and they have every right to do so. We don't have much room to complain here.

If your hobby is based on someone else's hand-outs, then this is what you have to put up with. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Beggars can't be choosers.

Is it annoying? Probably. Is it bad? Maybe a little. Do we have the right to complain? Not at all.

[AlanS17]

Is Mame gonna be another Ultracade Ultrapoo???

Is the MAME devs ever start charging money for their stuff or Ultracades are suddenly given away for free... sure!

(Neither will happen, though.)

[Tiger-Heli]

I think the dev's owe a answer

I think the devs own nothing. They could just as easily pack it up and call it quits, and they have every right to do so. We don't have much room to complain here.

If your hobby is based on someone else's hand-outs, then this is what you have to put up with. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Beggars can't be choosers.

Is it annoying? Probably. Is it bad? Maybe a little. Do we have the right to complain? Not at all.

Well said!!!!

[Thenasty]

oh man, oh man, here we go again........Can't we just all get along

[paigeoliver]

The hypocrisy of this situation amazes me. I actually went to the trouble of emailing ebay because I thought Ultracade was behind this hijinks.

I am sick and tired of all the hypocrisy in the official positions.

Pot calling kettle. Pot calling kettle.

You're black!!!

[KevSteele]

"MAME cabinet" implies something that "compatible with MAME(tm)" (or "Encoder for MAME") does not.

I'd disagree with this, at least from my perspective - to me "MAME cabinet" and "Compatible with MAME" or "Can be used with MAME" are the same.

Of course, I have no idea if anyone else reads it the same way, but I still fail to see the damage being done to the MAME project by these cabs if they're not selling MAME or ROMs with the cab, and I fail to see how a "MAME encoder" is somehow making people think that it's an "Officially Endorsed Product of the MAME Gods (tm)"

Kevin

[Thenasty]

I'm really beginning to wonder what the terms of the "agreement" between David Foley and the MAMEdevs was...

Kevin

Maybe the agreement was " I (D.Foley) will not trademark the MAME word and I'll let you (Nicola,A.Giles.,etc) trademark it that you must help me take down any selling/auction that contains the MAME word in the subject ?

[AlanS17]

Someone could see "MAME cabinet" and think "MAME brand cabinet". If something is listed as merely compatible then it's only associated to the product, not the product itself.

Back to the floormat example. If someone was selling "Ford floormats" you wouldn't be expecting floormats that fit your truck. You'd be expecting floormats made by Ford for your truck.

[SirPoonga]

But pulling an auction with no warning just because someone says "Encoder for MAME" or "MAME cabinet" is over the line, IMHO.

I agree that there seems to be some overreaching here as far at any use of the word MAME at all, but I would NOT put the phrases "MAME cabinet" and "Encoder for MAME" (or more specifically "compatible with MAME") in the same category.

"MAME cabinet" implies something that "compatible with MAME(tm)" (or "Encoder for MAME") does not. Which is why (I presume) they will allow you to say "compatible with MAME(tm)" but you are not allowed to just haphazardly include the word "MAME" in your acution title.   They want to ensure that there is no implied association or formal connection, and I can understand that desire.

I don't see anything wrong with the letter.
First, mame doesn't want to be commercial except for a few specific cases like hanaho.
If oyu read what the letter says you can use mame in the description once.  They would probably be fine with a description that said something like "works well with emulators such as MAME, Zinc, Nebula".
They don't want it in the title because that can imply the product is for mame (only) which there really is no product just for mame that can't be used with other emulators.
Now, your title could say "Cabinet for arcade emulation". 
They just don't want you using their name to sell your product.

[quarterback]

Back to the floormat example. If someone was selling "Ford floormats" you wouldn't be expecting floormats that fit your truck. You'd be expecting floormats made by Ford for your truck.

And if someone was selling a "PacMan cabinet" I would expect a PacMan cabinet, not some random cab that might be able to play PacMan.

[SirPoonga]

Back to the floormat example. If someone was selling "Ford floormats" you wouldn't be expecting floormats that fit your truck. You'd be expecting floormats made by Ford for your truck.

And if someone was selling a "PacMan cabinet" I would expect a PacMan cabinet, not some random cab that might be able to play PacMan.

Exactly, so saying you are selling a mame cabinet implies that you can only use mame on it.  When in fact you could do most anything with it, even put a real arcade game in the cabinet.
Mamedevs just don't want it to sound like it is a productjust for mame when it isn't..

[quarterback]

I don't see anything wrong with the letter.

We're on the same page here.  The only thing that seems a bit extreme to me is the "one time use" clause.  Mentioning it twice would be verboten?  Really?  Okayyyy then.....

[monkeybomb]

Then it sounds like they should be aloud to remove "MAME Cabinet"  but not  "Arcade Cabinet for MAME". 

[nobody]

Then it sounds like they should be aloud to remove "MAME Cabinet"  but not  "Arcade Cabinet for MAME". 

i think theyd prefer 'arcade cabinet for MAME and other emulators'

[Chris]

Back to the floormat example. If someone was selling "Ford floormats" you wouldn't be expecting floormats that fit your truck. You'd be expecting floormats made by Ford for your truck.

And if someone was selling a "PacMan cabinet" I would expect a PacMan cabinet, not some random cab that might be able to play PacMan.

But what MAMEDev is saying is like Ford going after an auction that says "KRAKO Floor Mats for Ford F-150".

[Avery]

Back to the floormat example. If someone was selling "Ford floormats" you wouldn't be expecting floormats that fit your truck. You'd be expecting floormats made by Ford for your truck.

Right, but in this case you couldn't even say, "Floor Mats - Fit '98 Ford F-250" .

I can see their having an issue with, "MAME Cabinet" but not with, "Cabinet: great for MAME or JAMA conversion".

[AlanS17]

Plus as soon as other people start slapping the MAME name on stuff, it becomes a liability for them. You can argue that as much as you want, but it's true.

[KevSteele]

They just don't want you using their name to sell your product.

I can see their side, to a point - but it was a pretty poor way of announcing their new rules, by pulling auctions first and then emailing companies with the "terms" of being able to use the word MAME. And just having the word MAME in the title shouldn't be legal grounds to pull an auction (especially if the trademark is acknowledged).

The MAMEdevs will get to dictate the terms on eBay, but I think that "fair use" will rule in the real world(tm). In other words a title such as "Arcade Cabinet, Compatible with MAME(tm)" will be perfectly acceptable in any other situation, and well within the scope of the law.

I agree with their letter except for two notable exceptions:

1. Not being able to use the word MAME anywhere in the title.
2. Only being able to use the word MAME once in the description.

Both of these are against the spirit (and perhaps the letter) of fair use of trademarks.

I'm beginning to wonder how the "Coke vs. Pepsi challenge" ever got on the air...

Kevin

[SirPoonga]

Ok, however what is the problem with not being able to do that?  Just say "Arcade Cabinet for Emulation".  Which is a more accurate term.

[Haze]

Ok.. this is quite simple.

MAME is an emulator, nothing more, nothing less.  Its the emulator that Nicola, Aaron, and others, including myself, helped to create.

MAME is not a set of arcade buttons you want to sell
MAME is not an arcade PCB
MAME is not an arcade cabinet
MAME is not a DVD full of ROMs

MAME is a non-commercial project, worked on by the developers for free, it is not something designed to help anybody make money.

There has been a large amount of abuse of MAME, especially people selling illegal items using the MAME name (such as ROM DVDs),  The measures being taken may seem drastic but are neccessary.  Simple approaches to stop people using the name have failed, its depressing to see that people even seem to have accepted that its acceptable to pay for DVDs full of 'MAME Roms' and such, some even openly encouraging people to order such.  The MAME trademark usage terms and conditions were created to stamp out abuse of the MAME name, and as these things go we must enforce them.

If you wish to use the MAME name then contact MameDev via the www.mamedev.com site, as mention in the email.

[vibez]

Ok.. this is quite simple.

MAME is an emulator, nothing more, nothing less.  Its the emulator that Nicola, Aaron, and others, including myself, helped to create.

MAME is not a set of arcade buttons you want to sell
MAME is not an arcade PCB
MAME is not an arcade cabinet
MAME is not a DVD full of ROMs

MAME is a non-commercial project, worked on by the developers for free, it is not something designed to help anybody make money.

There has been a large amount of abuse of MAME, especially people selling illegal items using the MAME name (such as ROM DVDs),  The measures being taken may seem drastic but are neccessary.  Simple approaches to stop people using the name have failed, its depressing to see that people even seem to have accepted that its acceptable to pay for DVDs full of 'MAME Roms' and such, some even openly encouraging people to order such.  The MAME trademark usage terms and conditions were created to stamp out abuse of the MAME name, and as these things go we must enforce them.

If you wish to use the MAME name then contact MameDev via the www.mamedev.com site, as mention in the email.

makes sense to me. mame is the emulator. There are no such things as a mame cab or mame roms.

i dont get the "but you may only mention it once in your ad." part

[Dav]

They just don't want you using their name to sell your product.

I can see their side, to a point - but it was a pretty poor way of announcing their new rules, by pulling auctions first and then emailing companies with the "terms" of being able to use the word MAME. And just having the word MAME in the title shouldn't be legal grounds to pull an auction (especially if the trademark is acknowledged).

The MAMEdevs will get to dictate the terms on eBay, but I think that "fair use" will rule in the real world(tm). In other words a title such as "Arcade Cabinet, Compatible with MAME(tm)" will be perfectly acceptable in any other situation, and well within the scope of the law.

I agree with their letter except for two notable exceptions:

1. Not being able to use the word MAME anywhere in the title.
2. Only being able to use the word MAME once in the description.

Both of these are against the spirit (and perhaps the letter) of fair use of trademarks.

I'm beginning to wonder how the "Coke vs. Pepsi challenge" ever got on the air...

Kevin

Mamedev.com was announced in several places as the official site, where it says "Products or services that wish to use the name MAME or a derivative thereof must obtain explicit permission from the trademark owner (Nicola) to do so in all cases"



I will agree with you on the fair use thing.  I'm suprised that they are limiting mame compatible, but I'm sure Aaron didn't just make this up out of thin air, he must have a lawyer who told him he could.

[divemaster127]

I can agree with some of the letter, but still why not go after sites that offer free roms etc, what harm is being done to mame because some guy had the mame in the title of his auction selling a set of gas pedals, I go back to what I said earlier, if I have a Dell computer I cant use the word "Dell" I think this is wrong & the way its being done is wrong, I thought things were getting better since hopefully foley is out of the picture...selling a buttons, a encoder, a set of pedals is not abuse at all...& I think the dev gods have carried this to far...

[monkeybomb]

There has been a large amount of abuse of MAME, especially people selling illegal items using the MAME name (such as ROM DVDs),  The measures being taken may seem drastic but are neccessary.  Simple approaches to stop people using the name have failed, its depressing to see that people even seem to have accepted that its acceptable to pay for DVDs full of 'MAME Roms'

Hi Haze it's great to see you on this board and I hope you return.  Thank you so much for helping to bring such a fun part of my childhood back into my life.

Unfortunately I have no way of accessing this whithout the method you described.  Would you preffer that I and those like me leave the hobby all together.  Are you sad to see me with an arcade cabinet with illegal ROMS.

[KevSteele]

Not quite so simple, Haze.

While I definitely see your point, I do think MAMEdev have overstepped their rights a bit with the two restrictions I mentioned above (not using MAME in the title and only using MAME once in the description).

IANAL, but as long as they acknowlege your trademark, it seems that a vendor of a legal product should be able to mention that their product is compatible with MAME, even in the title of their auction, and even if they say it more than once. (I've never heard of either of these restrictions in fair use before).

I know it may feel like vendors are using you and the MAMEdev team for profit purposes, but there is a large community built up around your efforts, and to squash legal products that do no harm to the MAME effort is a bit excessive.

In addition, your "ebay sweep" killing all these auctions without any prior notice seems a bit harsh, as well.

I hope that you'll reconsider and revise those two restrictions.

Kevin

[AlanS17]

Ok.. this is quite simple.

MAME is an emulator, nothing more, nothing less.

[KevSteele]

There shouldn't be much left to discuss.

You don't visit BYOAC much, do you? 

Kevin

[monkeybomb]

There shouldn't be much left to discuss.

Acctually this POV was known when it was announced that the auctions were pulled.  It is the very point of the discussion.

[Thenasty]

How can I sell my POSTER of MAME....

Ebay Tittle: MAME POSTER for SALE.
Desc: This MAME poster is bla bla bla.
I have this MAME poster for years and I want to let it go now...
11" by 17"
Reprint Movie Poster


Would I be breaking the RULE by mentioning MAME in the Title ?
Mentioning MAME several times ?

[AlanS17]

"Shouldn't" and "won't" are 2 totally different things. I visit plenty. Check the post count.

[Q*Bert_OP]

Just say this is an Ebay auction.

Title: Arcade cabinet for Jamma or (censored)

Description:

Here is a good condition cabinet that can be used for JAMMA games or can be converted to (censored)


Buy it now and I will include a set of (censored) side art and a (censored) marquee.

MAME MAME MAME MAME MAME MAME MAME MAME MAME MAME MAME

Fill in every censored spot with MAME

[Haze]

While I definitely see your point, I do think MAMEdev have overstepped their rights a bit with the two restrictions I mentioned above (not using MAME in the title and only using MAME once in the description).

IANAL, but as long as they acknowlege your trademark, it seems that a vendor of a legal product should be able to mention that their product is compatible with MAME, even in the title of their auction, and even if they say it more than once. (I've never heard of either of these restrictions in fair use before).

I know it may feel like vendors are using you and the MAMEdev team for profit purposes, but there is a large community built up around your efforts, and to squash legal products that do no harm to the MAME effort is a bit excessive.

In addition, your "ebay sweep" killing all these auctions without any prior notice seems a bit harsh, as well.

I hope that you'll reconsider and revise those two restrictions.

Kevin

Well I had nothing to do with the writing of the list of restrictions, however they do seem reasonable to me.

Mentioning MAME once, fair enough, I've seen several spammy auctions with MAME plastered all over them, it gives a false impression that the product is something we endorse when in most cases its just spam (and we all hate spam..)

I believe there was prior notice as mamedev.com has been up a while, including the trademark rules, however I will acknowledge some people may not have been aware of it.

You talk about a large community, unfortunately a significant part of the community does not seem to have our best interests at heart.  If more effort was put in to shutting down those abusing the MAME name things may not have come to this.  I only have to look at the adverts on this forum and I see 'MAME ROM DVDs' for sale.  We spent a great deal of time and effort filtering these out over at mame.net but it seems the majority don't care to do so and such businesses, and adverts do pose a threat to ourselves and the integrity of the MAME name and project.

At the end of the day a bit of bad comes with every bit of good.  All the developers are human, and have lives to live, and we don't want to have to live in fear of legal action being taken because a community has turned MAME into seemingly nothing more (in the eyes of those higher up) than a large profit making market based around selling illegal products.  At that point the risk of working on MAME becomes too high.  Unfortunately many of the arcade cabinets being sold, or for which 'MAME' parts are being sold end up being used for commercial purposes, this is likewise a problem.

With that in mind we simply need to establish MAME for what it is, allowing the name to only be used for things which really are MAME (ie the actual emulator)

Please read Aaron's reply over at mame.net
http://www.mame.net/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showpost.pl?Board=mamegeneral&Number=174573

Anyway, I hope you can understand our situation as developers and why we feel the need to protect the MAME name before the situation gets even more out of control that it already is.

[AlanS17]

There shouldn't be much left to discuss.

Acctually this POV was known when it was announced that the auctions were pulled.

[divemaster127]

Not one thing that was shut down on ebay was illegal I keep seeing the wording Illegal roms, not one person on ebay was selling illegal roms, it was buttons, a encoder etc, so what harm is being done to mame in this way...

[Chris]

You talk about a large community, unfortunately a significant part of the community does not seem to have our best interests at heart.

[ddockery]

Maye nobody complaining in this thread was selling roms, but I'm sure some of the pulled auctions were.  It seems every time I check I can find one of these auctions up.  Be it with a contoller, a cab, or on a CD by itself. 

[monkeybomb]

Why can't people just be greatful?

I am greatful.  But for me I am greatful to all of the people involved in helping me play and relive my childhood games.

Those that dumped the boards
Those that wrote the software
Those that helped me build a cabinet
Those who make the encoders
Those who sell products
And yes the ROM burner who got me the ROMS

Without all of those things the rest are useless to me.  I can see why it is important to go after the burners to protect themselves, but the encoder makers?  If their laywer said to do then fine.  But to me without the encoder the software is useless.

[KevSteele]

Haze,

I can understand your position, and the fear of legal action, but squashing legal products that can be used with MAME for fear of illegal ROM sales is punishing the wrong people.

I know the community could help more with stopping illegal ROM sales - I've filtered all ROM sales from my site's Google ads, and am pretty vigilant about making sure any new ones get squashed as well.

The new rules (and the enforcement) do have that "designed by committee" feel to them. I'm only asking that you review the two points I've made, and perhaps loosen the noose for legal product to more freely acknowledge that they can be used with MAME(tm).

Personally, I'm thinking a trademark notice and a "MAME is a registered trademark of Nicolas Salmoria. This product is not affilated with or endorsed by MAME" - type notice may be a good compromise. Perhaps even a "licensing fee" that could be used for board dumps?

Just some thoughts for discussion.

[Shape D.]

Not one thing that was shut down on ebay was illegal I keep seeing the wording Illegal roms, not one person on ebay was selling illegal roms, it was buttons, a encoder etc, so what harm is being done to mame in this way...

selling a "mame button" implies that you are selling a button that was made by the mame team or specifically for use with mame.

buttons are leaf or microswitch style buttons not mame buttons so they shouldn't be advertising them as such anyways.

encoders are keyboard encoders. They don't just work with mame, they translate buttons into keypresses you could technically use ms word with them if you wanted to.

using the mame name in the title or ecessivley in the auction implies association with the mame team. Those peopple did not assist with anything to create mame and are using their name as a way to make extra money.

[Haze]

You talk about a large community, unfortunately a significant part of the community does not seem to have our best interests at heart.  If more effort was put in to shutting down those abusing the MAME name things may not have come to this.  I only have to look at the adverts on this forum and I see 'MAME ROM DVDs' for sale.  We spent a great deal of time and effort filtering these out over at mame.net but it seems the majority don't care to do so and such businesses, and adverts do pose a threat to ourselves and the integrity of the MAME name and project.

At the end of the day a bit of bad comes with every bit of good.  All the developers are human, and have lives to live, and we don't want to have to live in fear of legal action being taken because a community has turned MAME into seemingly nothing more (in the eyes of those higher up) than a large profit making market based around selling illegal products.  At that point the risk of working on MAME becomes too high.  Unfortunately many of the arcade cabinets being sold, or for which 'MAME' parts are being sold end up being used for commercial purposes, this is likewise a problem.

With that in mind we simply need to establish MAME for what it is, allowing the name to only be used for things which really are MAME (ie the actual emulator)

So you're saying that because a keyboard encoder could be purchased and put into an illegal commercial cabinet, that makes it illegal to sell on eBay with MAME in the subject line?

I agree with much of what you guys are doing with the trademark, Haze, but I really think going after parts auctions just because they COULD be used illegally is an abuse of the VeRO program.  Going after ROM sets is one thing, but a keyboard encoder is pretty innocuous.

--Chris

As I said, I didn't write the list of conditions, and one of the reasons I didn't feel like remaining in charge of the project was the ever increasing mess of people abusing MAME and the problems which trying to control it would incur (such as this) as I just want to write code.  If you really feel strongly over it then I suggest you discuss it with Aaron, but chances are he'll take a firm stance on it and I don't really blame him.

End of the day, if you don't use the MAME name to sell keyboard encoders, then you haven't got a problem, and nor have we.  If you're concerned that not being able to use the MAME name is going to eat into profits then please consider what MAME is about.

Anyway, I'm not going to post any more on this issue, its pretty clear cut.

[SirPoonga]

End of the day, if you don't use the MAME name to sell keyboard encoders, then you haven't got a problem, and nor have we.  If you're concerned that not being able to use the MAME name is going to eat into profits then please consider what MAME is about.

And you can always ask for permission....

[CheffoJeffo]

And you can always ask for permission....

BOOM ... I wonder how many people who had auctions yanked actually took the time to ask ... the need to ask has been known since Ultracade dropped their TM application.

Did anybody using the term MAME in any of the killed auctions ask ?

[NOTE: This is an honest question, not a smart@$$ rhetorical]

Cheers.

[Chris]

And you can always ask for permission....

BOOM ... I wonder how many people who had auctions yanked actually took the time to ask ... the need to ask has been known since Ultracade dropped their TM application.

Did anybody using the term MAME in any of the killed auctions ask ?

[NOTE: This is an honest question, not a smart@$$ rhetorical]

Cheers.

Does a floormat guy have to ask Ford before he makes or advertises a Ford-compatible floormat?

[Dire Radiant]

I don't see a problem with it. It will certainly get rid of all those annoying ads that really have nothing to do with MAME but just shove the name in the auction title so they get returned on searches. eg "Atari Roadblasters cabinet including control panel MAME"  I would have no problem however with a note somewhere in the auction like "Would make a great conversion project for MAME"

I don't see my cabinet as a "MAME" cabinet. It's essentially a peripheral for playing arcade games no matter what the source. If I were to sell a "Flightsim Joystick" that would be one thing. If I were to sell it as an "IL2 Sturmovik joystick" then I feel that would give the impression that it was SPECIFICALLY designed to play IL2 Sturmovik. The only reason for me to put that in an auction title would be to show up on searches for the game. That, as Haze pointed out (and it's rare I agree with his views) is spam. It's no different than the people who sell cheap nasty stereos and put in the search title "Sanyo Stereo - Not Bose, Technics, Pioneer etc"

[DreamArcades]

And you can always ask for permission....

BOOM ... I wonder how many people who had auctions yanked actually took the time to ask ... the need to ask has been known since Ultracade dropped their TM application.

Did anybody using the term MAME in any of the killed auctions ask ?

[NOTE: This is an honest question, not a smart@$$ rhetorical]

Cheers.

I asked how to properly use the MAME (tm) trademark several times, but did not get a reply.

[Dav]

End of the day, if you don't use the MAME name to sell keyboard encoders, then you haven't got a problem, and nor have we.  If you're concerned that not being able to use the MAME name is going to eat into profits then please consider what MAME is about.

That's a very good point.  If it's going to hurt someones sales to not put mame in the title then they are abusing MAME to sell the product.  If it doesn't hurt sales then who cares.

And btw you don't have to get IBM's permision to say IBM compatible because they have explicitly given permision on their website along with certain restrictions.  Probably Ford is the same way.

[CheffoJeffo]

And you can always ask for permission....

BOOM ... I wonder how many people who had auctions yanked actually took the time to ask ... the need to ask has been known since Ultracade dropped their TM application.

Did anybody using the term MAME in any of the killed auctions ask ?

[NOTE: This is an honest question, not a smart@$$ rhetorical]

Cheers.

Does a floormat guy have to ask Ford before he makes or advertises a Ford-compatible floormat?

Actually, I believe he does ...

Cheers.

[CheffoJeffo]

Thanks, DA ... that indicates, at least, a problem with the process.

Cheers.

[Chris]

And you can always ask for permission....

BOOM ... I wonder how many people who had auctions yanked actually took the time to ask ... the need to ask has been known since Ultracade dropped their TM application.

Did anybody using the term MAME in any of the killed auctions ask ?

[NOTE: This is an honest question, not a smart@$$ rhetorical]

Cheers.

Does a floormat guy have to ask Ford before he makes or advertises a Ford-compatible floormat?

Actually, I believe he does ...

Cheers.

Well, here's a thought, Jeffo:

[chukdotcom]

Can I sell a "Microsoft Office Cab" on ebay?  Build a cabinet that has a PC in it, and nothing but windows and Micosoft Office installed.

[CheffoJeffo]

Well, here's a thought, Jeffo:  Ford is the trademark owner of Ford.  MAMEDev is the trademark applicant for mame.  Applicant.  Not trademark holder.  And for that trademark to stick, it has to be used in commerce. So MAME had better get commercial if they want the trademark to stick.

It is an interesting thought and a pretty darned good point (about the commerce aspect) ... now, I wonder how that would be possible, given the nature of the project ... any thoughts ?

Cheers.

[saint]

Had to respond to this part -- I hope that in fact you never have seen an advertisement for a MAME DVD on this forum as I specifically have such things blocked. Occasionally they may crop up -- I believe that you ran into the same problem with MAME ROM collections popping up in Google ads as new vendors purchased ads? Right now I have 7 or so sites blocked from my Google Ads specifically for being MAME ROM vendors. As fast as someone makes me aware of them I block them. I don't know what more than that I can do other than give up the Google ads altogether.

The policies of this web site also do not allow posting of ebay links to ROM auctions, even for the purposes of complaining about them, so as to prevent purposeful or inadvertent advertizing of such.  This is plainly spelled out in the rules of the forum linked at the top.

Additionally, any request for locating ROMs that a mod finds or is made aware of is also deleted post-haste.

I take a hard line on this for two reasons -- 1 is to honor the wishes of the MAME-devs, but more importantly because I know they are illegal (StarROMs and other legal ROMs aside).

You also will almost never (perhaps in fact never) hear me refer to a cabinet as a "MAME-Cabinet" because to me they are two entirely unique, albeit related, hobbies. I love MAME, but my side of this hobby can exist without MAME altogether. Together they make a great combo, but they are indeed separate entities.

The last thing I ever want to see is anyone associate BYOAC with condoning illegal ROM distribution, when in fact I bend over backwards to make sure that's not so.

--- saint

to this.  I only have to look at the adverts on this forum and I see 'MAME ROM DVDs' for sale.  We spent a great deal of time and effort filtering these out over at mame.net but it seems the majority don't care to do so and such businesses, and adverts do pose a threat to ourselves and the integrity of the MAME name and project.
hat it already is.

[19rjs99]

TITLE: Emulation cabinet for Multiple Arcade Machines

Don't use MAME... spell it out.

Enough said.

[saint]

For what it's worth, my being taken aback about the ROM DVD ads aside, I concur that MAME-DEV is being prudent in doing something about the situation. I think the restriction of the use of the word MAME in describing the capabilities of a cabinet is probably stricter than necessary, but if it's my family that's at risk as a MAME developer I'd probably be taking similar steps.

--- saint

While I definitely see your point, I do think MAMEdev have overstepped their rights a bit with the two restrictions I mentioned above (not using MAME in the title and only using MAME once in the description).

IANAL, but as long as they acknowlege your trademark, it seems that a vendor of a legal product should be able to mention that their product is compatible with MAME, even in the title of their auction, and even if they say it more than once. (I've never heard of either of these restrictions in fair use before).

I know it may feel like vendors are using you and the MAMEdev team for profit purposes, but there is a large community built up around your efforts, and to squash legal products that do no harm to the MAME effort is a bit excessive.

In addition, your "ebay sweep" killing all these auctions without any prior notice seems a bit harsh, as well.

I hope that you'll reconsider and revise those two restrictions.

Kevin

Well I had nothing to do with the writing of the list of restrictions, however they do seem reasonable to me.

Mentioning MAME once, fair enough, I've seen several spammy auctions with MAME plastered all over them, it gives a false impression that the product is something we endorse when in most cases its just spam (and we all hate spam..)

I believe there was prior notice as mamedev.com has been up a while, including the trademark rules, however I will acknowledge some people may not have been aware of it.

You talk about a large community, unfortunately a significant part of the community does not seem to have our best interests at heart.  If more effort was put in to shutting down those abusing the MAME name things may not have come to this.  I only have to look at the adverts on this forum and I see 'MAME ROM DVDs' for sale.  We spent a great deal of time and effort filtering these out over at mame.net but it seems the majority don't care to do so and such businesses, and adverts do pose a threat to ourselves and the integrity of the MAME name and project.

At the end of the day a bit of bad comes with every bit of good.  All the developers are human, and have lives to live, and we don't want to have to live in fear of legal action being taken because a community has turned MAME into seemingly nothing more (in the eyes of those higher up) than a large profit making market based around selling illegal products.  At that point the risk of working on MAME becomes too high.  Unfortunately many of the arcade cabinets being sold, or for which 'MAME' parts are being sold end up being used for commercial purposes, this is likewise a problem.

With that in mind we simply need to establish MAME for what it is, allowing the name to only be used for things which really are MAME (ie the actual emulator)

Please read Aaron's reply over at mame.net
http://www.mame.net/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showpost.pl?Board=mamegeneral&Number=174573

Anyway, I hope you can understand our situation as developers and why we feel the need to protect the MAME name before the situation gets even more out of control that it already is.

[Chris]

For what it's worth, my being taken aback about the ROM DVD ads aside, I concur that MAME-DEV is being prudent in doing something about the situation. I think the restriction of the use of the word MAME in describing the capabilities of a cabinet is probably stricter than necessary, but if it's my family that's at risk as a MAME developer I'd probably be taking similar steps.

The MAMEDev's families aren't at risk from a keyboard encoder... just their ideals.

[CheffoJeffo]

The MAMEDev's families aren't at risk from a keyboard encoder... just their ideals.

I'm not so sure I would be so glib about the risk aspect ... we are talking about the United States of Litigation, aren't we ?

Even responding to a nuisance lawsuit would cost the families dearly in terms of $$$ and it's not like the MAMEdevs are being paid or anything. I'm sure that that we will all band together to fund the defense. 

So, a thought back to you, Chris ... what would you do differently than the MAME team supposing that, say, you had received legal advice (which they apparently have) and a minimum legal response to a lawsuit was going to cost you personally, say, $5,000 (and would likely escalate steeply from there) ?

This is not a question about the merits of such a suit, but rather a question to quantify the degree of risk aversion that we each have.

Again, not trying to be a smart@$$, but asking an honest question.

I know I wouldn't risk my family's well-being (or even a four-figure hit to my bank account) for no $$$ and the grief that people continually give the MAMEdevs.

Cheers.

[Chris]

The MAMEDev's families aren't at risk from a keyboard encoder... just their ideals.

I'm not so sure I would be so glib about the risk aspect ... we are talking about the United States of Litigation, aren't we ?

Nicola, the applicant of record, lives in Italy.

Even responding to a nuisance lawsuit would cost the families dearly in terms of $$$ and it's not like the MAMEdevs are being paid or anything. I'm sure that that we will all band together to fund the defense.

[Dav]

Well, here's a thought, Jeffo:  Ford is the trademark owner of Ford.  MAMEDev is the trademark applicant for mame.  Applicant.  Not trademark holder.  And for that trademark to stick, it has to be used in commerce. So MAME had better get commercial if they want the trademark to stick.

It is an interesting thought and a pretty darned good point (about the commerce aspect) ... now, I wonder how that would be possible, given the nature of the project ... any thoughts ?

Cheers.

They already have gone commercial by giving permission for use in commercial products such as hanaho.  That is all that is necessary.

[Dav]

The MAMEDev's families aren't at risk from a keyboard encoder... just their ideals.

I'm not so sure I would be so glib about the risk aspect ... we are talking about the United States of Litigation, aren't we ?

Nicola, the applicant of record, lives in Italy.

Maybe you've heard of Aaron, the current head of the project? 

Even responding to a nuisance lawsuit would cost the families dearly in terms of $$$ and it's not like the MAMEdevs are being paid or anything. I'm sure that that we will all band together to fund the defense. 

After this?  I think before this lots of people would have.  Now, maybe not so much.

hought back to you, Chris ... what would you do differently than the MAME team supposing that, say, you had received legal advice (which they apparently have) and a minimum legal response to a lawsuit was going to cost you personally, say, $5,000 (and would likely escalate steeply from there) ?

Aaron's resonse in the mame.net forum has nothing to do with legal fears and everything to do with "we're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore."

Going after ROM sales?  Absolutely.  Going after cab sales?  Marginal, but I understand it.  Going after keyboard encoders?  Out and out abuse.

The abuse is putting someone elses name on a product and selling it.  Mame keyboad encoder.  If someone put my name on a product for sale I'd be ticked too. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Aaron's resonse in the mame.net forum has nothing to do with legal fears and everything to do with "we're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore."

I dunno ... I thought that

The fact that there are a number of outright illegal products using "MAME" to sell themselves only means that it is imperative for us to take action.

was pretty clearly about the legal fears. But I could be wrong ...

As for being mad as hell, if you had

- a bunch of clowns putting your @$$ at risk with illegal activities
- a bunch of folks who don't pay you anything, but then use the reputation of a project that you work hard on (and they have little or nothing to do with) to make money
- a bunch of people (who also don't pay you) who complain about you the way you treat the folks above

then I suspect that you would be mad as hell as well. I sure would.

I believe that the restrictions are a bit severe, but I also believe that, as the situation becomes clearer, they will be relaxed.

I do think that your characterization of "out and out abuse" is off the mark ... if they were out for that, there are at least a hundred better ways of achieving it (say, by, killing the whole project). They are protecting themselves and, as you imply, righting some wrongs that they perceive with the use of their work.

I can't really fault them for that ... after all, it is THEIR work that gives rise to all of this, isn't it ?

Cheers.

[Chris]

The abuse is putting someone elses name on a product and selling it.

[CheffoJeffo]

The abuse is putting someone elses name on a product and selling it.  Mame keyboad encoder.  If someone put my name on a product for sale I'd be ticked too. 

MAME keyboard encoder?  Marginal, but understandable pull.  Keyboard encoder compatible with MME?  Pulling that is rubbish.

I thought that Aaron explained that adequately in his posts on mame.net ... we can disagree and say that they should look at every single auction to make individual determinations, but he explained why they aren't doing that.

Cheers.

[Chris]

The abuse is putting someone elses name on a product and selling it.

[CheffoJeffo]

I thought that Aaron explained that adequately in his posts on mame.net ... we can disagree and say that they should look at every single auction to make individual determinations, but he explained why they aren't doing that.

Cheers.

Right... which had nothing to the "legal fears for his family" you brought up.

OK ... I have no idea what that is supposed to mean ... you can't pull one issue, out of context, from a post that adresses multiple and related issues and say "Right ... that has nothing to do with X". Holy non-sequiturs, BatMan.

[EDIT: I meant Aaron's post here, not mine.]

1) They have legal fears due to illegal activities involving the name (do you disagree with this ?)
2) They don't want to spend time/open a can of worms by examining each and every auction

You may think that they *should* spend the time and look at each auction individually (perhaps someone could volunteer for the position of "inappropriate eBay auction title inspector"), but the fact that you disagree with (2) does not negate the fact that action had to be taken due to (1), as you state in your response above.

Cheers.

[Patent Doc]

Sorry I'm so late to the party.  Happens every time I get swamped with work and something big IP related hits the fan.  Anyway, I'll try to make this brief...(yeah right when have I ever done that) .  Anyway, I haven't read all the posts but here is my take.  Sir Poonga is right saying something is a "MAME cabinet" implies that the MAMEdev team made or endorses the cabinet.  Sure you can read it differently, but the fact that you can read it the way I indicated opens up the MAMEdev team for potential litigation.  The MAMEdev team must be vigilant about the enforcement of a trademark otherwise the mark is destroyed.  Additionally, there is a legal term called inducement to infringe...meaning your product has only one purpose, to aid in the commision of infringement and by providing the product to others you are making them commit an illegal act.  Don't think for a second NAMCO or NINTENDO won't pull the plug on MAME if they think their bottom line is being affected.  The MAMEdev are doing a little CYA (Cover Your @$$). 

Now is there fair use and are they being a little over zealous...yeah.... probably.  Sometimes there is only one way to describe something and not using MAME in the title can affect a description.  For example, let's say...hypothetically, that MAMEMarquees obtains a lisence to make and distribute marquees of the traditional MAME ilk.  Let's say I buy one and after several years of enjoyment give up this hobby and want to part out my cabinet.  Well, the only way to describe my marquee to inform the buyer what the marquee is regarding is to use the word MAME.  Much like I would sell an antique COKE bottle.  Here I am not using the MAME name to market a product, but describing what the product is.  Now keep in mind I have very limitted trademark work (I deal 99.99% in patents only), but I fairly certain this would not violate a mark.  Only problem is, do you really want to go to court over a $30 marquee...which keep in mind is probably the only way ebay will let your auction back on the site with mame.  Now someone mentioned why Ford doesn't do the same thing.  Again, my bet...without doing any legal research is they can't; however, if they could, they probably don't because if they did they would be paying millions in legal fees to have some attorney spend every waking moment shut auctions down.  The reason I'm hedging here is the Krako example.  Sure Krako makes aftermarket products, but be damn sure they already got a lisence to use the mark.  Heck they even will acknowledge marks at the bottom of the add (e.g., Ford is the registered mark of Ford Motor Company, etc, etc).

Lastly, as someone also mentioned earlier... tradmarks are only valid if used in commerce.  Unless someone can point to court cases that define freeware as commerce, I'm fairly certain this means a monetary transaction.  No exchange of cash for good (here MAME)..no commerce.... no trademark.  So MAMEdev be careful what you do, you might lose your mark in an effort to enforce it. Also enfocement of a mark you don't have yet is illegal and can result in the loss of the mark. You're not quite as bad off as Mr. Foley because it is clear that MAME was in use and you can rely on the TM rather than an R.  Mr. Foley had niether and was trying to enforce...he would've been toast.  However, nobody here should bite the hand that feeds them.  Don't piss off the dev team or there may be no more MAME dev going on.  They don't have to do this you know. 

Anyway, that's my take just off the top of my head.  Got to get back to work ...if this is still hot this weekend or next week, I'll post a more legally polished rant with case law for those who are interested.

Patent Doc

PS - Kev  I haven't had a chance to read that patent article you posted yet, but the sky isn't falling despite what you see here.  I'll try to e-mail you why I say this later tonight or tomorrow.

[Chris]

You may think that they *should* spend the time and look at each auction individually

YES.

[JODY]

The Mamedevs MUST enforce the trademark now that they have it or it will become public domain.

[danny_galaga]

i havent looked for a while, but arent the mamedevs selling t-shirts etc? if they are then they are using their trademark for commerce and should be able to keep it, right? if they arent making any products like that, well they better start printing!!

[Chris]

i havent looked for a while, but arent the mamedevs selling t-shirts etc? if they are then they are using their trademark for commerce and should be able to keep it, right? if they arent making any products like that, well they better start printing!!

Wrong.  Trademarks are applied for in specific categories.  Thyey applied in the software category, not in the wearable goods category.  Selling T-shirts isn't going to help.

[CheffoJeffo]

You may think that they *should* spend the time and look at each auction individually

YES.  People can be SUSPENDED from eBay for VeRO violations!

Another good point ... doesn't negate their legal fears or make them abusive, and I notice that a number of the auctions are already being relisted in compliance with the terms set by the MAMEdevs (I am even bidding on one ... but it's a low bid).

Thanks for making so many good points, BTW (I may not agree with your conclusions, but I think that some of the issues you mention are rather important) ... I hope that the things that you're pointing out will help make the process work better in the future.

Not sure I can say much more than I have already, so perhaps it is time for me to bow out ... or not ... we'll see ...

Cheers.

[Patent Doc]

Oh lest we all be kidding ourselves, finding illegal ROMs in association with MAME is easy...yes MAMEdevs even from your beloved MAME net sight.  I know everyone hear can play our own little game of six degrees of Kevin Bacon, but it would be the 2 degrees of Illegal Roms...yep you might not have them on your sight, but pages you are linked to have links that provide illegal ROMs.  If you are worried about anything, I would be worried about that.

Patent Doc

[KevSteele]

"Shouldn't" and "won't" are 2 totally different things. I visit plenty. Check the post count.

[Dav]

i havent looked for a while, but arent the mamedevs selling t-shirts etc? if they are then they are using their trademark for commerce and should be able to keep it, right? if they arent making any products like that, well they better start printing!!

Wrong.  Trademarks are applied for in specific categories.  Thyey applied in the software category, not in the wearable goods category.  Selling T-shirts isn't going to help.

Like I said before, several years ago Hanaho  had an agreement to resell mame. 
Anyone who has one of those CD's has purchased MAME.

[RayB]

I'd like to offer another viewpoint: Associating MAME with keyboards encoders or other such devices is BENEFICIAL to MAME. YES, beneficial.

Let's say Ultimarc makes the decision... they can either promote their keyboard encoder as being compatible with MAME or Vantage. Hmmm, let's say they choose Vantage. OH all of a sudden Vantage is getting a boost in popularity thanks to Ultimarc. Don't shoot a gift horse...

[pointdablame]

I'd like to offer another viewpoint: Associating MAME with keyboards encoders or other such devices is BENEFICIAL to MAME. YES, beneficial.

Let's say Ultimarc makes the decision... they can either promote their keyboard encoder as being compatible with MAME or Vantage. Hmmm, let's say they choose Vantage. OH all of a sudden Vantage is getting a boost in popularity thanks to Ultimarc. Don't shoot a gift horse...

maybe.  But would Ultimarc really have the product line that they have WITHOUT MAME?  I don't think so.

[KevSteele]

Don't shoot a gift horse...

Unfortunately, MAMEdev is taking a shotgun approach (i.e., all the horses die).

After seeing Aaron's posts about the situation over on MAME.net, I guess can understand - they don't have the time to individually monitor all the auctions, and if they let some through but not others they're going to be spending all their time arbitrating the mess they've made and dealing with angry vendors. Simpler to just kill all gaming-related MAME auctions.

If I was a programmer, I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my days monitoring eBay auctions daily to enforce the trademark. Killing all MAME auctions is indiscrimiate but fast and efficient.

I'm not happy about the situation, but I can see their point and I'm sure the gaming ecosystem will adapt to this new boulder in the river.

Unfortunately, things like this are the price of popularity: First comes the popularity, then comes the entrepenurs, then come the lawyers...and the circle of corporate life goes on...sigh...

Kevin

[Dav]

I'd like to offer another viewpoint: Associating MAME with keyboards encoders or other such devices is BENEFICIAL to MAME. YES, beneficial.

Let's say Ultimarc makes the decision... they can either promote their keyboard encoder as being compatible with MAME or Vantage. Hmmm, let's say they choose Vantage. OH all of a sudden Vantage is getting a boost in popularity thanks to Ultimarc. Don't shoot a gift horse...

That doesn't make sense.  How does mame benefit from more users?   They don't charge anything.  Some of the devs won't even use their real names so they don't even get  any fame.   I would argue the opposite, more users cause more problems.  The fact that the previous lead developer was actively trying to push users to Raine would indicate that they may feel that way.

[Santoro]

I would like to voice my support for the argument that we should all just shut up and be really thankful that the MAMEdevs continue to do all of this free work that, in the end, brings much benefit to our community. 

Even if we disagree with thier wishes (and I do) we ought to respect them. 

It isn't analagous to Ford because Ford is for-profit.  The devs to what they do for preserving the games.  It's a buttload of work, and for us to second guess anything they do is, IMHO, rather ballsy.

[Howard_Casto]

But pulling an auction with no warning just because someone says "Encoder for MAME" or "MAME cabinet" is over the line, IMHO.

I agree that there seems to be some overreaching here as far at any use of the word MAME at all, but I would NOT put the phrases "MAME cabinet" and "Encoder for MAME" (or more specifically "compatible with MAME") in the same category.

"MAME cabinet" implies something that "compatible with MAME(tm)" (or "Encoder for MAME") does not. Which is why (I presume) they will allow you to say "compatible with MAME(tm)" but you are not allowed to just haphazardly include the word "MAME" in your acution title.

[MonitorGuru]

Let say a person wants to sell their Dell computer on ebay so now you cant use the word dell, I think this is crazy & someone has to much free time on there hands, I have looked at the ebay auctions nobody is selling roms so what harm is being is being done,

[MonitorGuru]

I think the dev's owe a answer

I think the devs owe nothing. They could just as easily pack it up and call it quits, and they have every right to do so. We don't have much room to complain here.

If your hobby is based on someone else's hand-outs, then this is what you have to put up with. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Beggars can't be choosers.

Is it annoying? Probably. Is it bad? Maybe a little. Do we have the right to complain? Not at all.

The BEST quote here, bar none. Well said AlanS

[Pilot143]

I normally stay quiet on things like this, but my initial thoughts on this topic has changed.

[Adeptus]

Vaguely related story (on the eBay side, not the MAME side)

"Splendour in the Grass", a major music festival here in Australia had its tickets sell out in 18 hours (normally takes a few weeks). Soon afterwards, there were hundreds of tickets being sold on eBay. The festival organisers asked eBay to remove the auctions, they refused.
Because ticket scalping isn't actually illegal here, and eBay have a clause saying the sellers are responsible for honouring ticket conditions (which say, you can not re-sell tickets at a premium).

I wonder if they could have used the "You can't use our name in the auction title" angle...? I'm sure it would be registered and/or trademarked.

[paigeoliver]

Any arguement about how wonderfully legal Mame is and how anti-piracy mame is completely goes out the window based on the fact that mame has hardcoded support for hundreds of bootleg romsets.

If Mame is anti-piracy than why do they support bootleg romsets? There is no legal way for ANYONE to possess those romsets.

You can't take the high road when you are still mucking around in the dirt.

My personal suggestion?

End the Mame project now, release the source code free of all restrictions. Let other emulators take up the code and continue the ideas. For all practical purposed Mame has been done for a few years now anyway. ideally 3D games should have a different emulator optimized for 3D games and designed for hardware accelleration.

[Dav]

Any arguement about how wonderfully legal Mame is and how anti-piracy mame is completely goes out the window based on the fact that mame has hardcoded support for hundreds of bootleg romsets.

If Mame is anti-piracy than why do they support bootleg romsets? There is no legal way for ANYONE to possess those romsets.

That's open to debate.   If fair use allows me to play mspacman on a PC it seems to me the same fair use would allow me to play mspacman  in mame on  make trax hardware or galaxian hardware just the same as on pacman hardware.   Or play mspacman on an actual make trax board, which I do btw since they are more reliable than pacman boards.

[paigeoliver]

Ah, but what about "Space Pilot" or Super Zola Pac-Gal, or anyone of the other hundreds of bootleg romsets that are more than just hacked to run on different hardware, but that also remove or change the copyright information and change the title?

[Dav]

Ah, but what about "Space Pilot" or Super Zola Pac-Gal, or anyone of the other hundreds of bootleg romsets that are more than just hacked to run on different hardware, but that also remove or change the copyright information and change the title?

Nothing illegal about that, fair use allows people to change their roms.  Any new code is copyrighted by the author, so I'd need to own a zola board as well as a mspac board to run zola.   

It may have been illegal for the zola people to sell the board since they didn't have rights to it.  But I have a dozen original mspacman boards, I certaiinly would have fair use rights to use  ms pacman code.

[DreamArcades]

I just thought everyone should know that I received an e-mail from Aaron Giles tonight. He apologized for my trouble with Ebay and has offer to work with me to make fix it.
I had about 10 auctions removed today (by the MAMEdev

[paigeoliver]

Ah, but there is the trick, there is no such thing as a legal Zola board to begin with.

Here is an example, lets say I happen to have a bootleg copy of "The Phantom Menace" on a VCD, copied with a video camera in a movie theatre in a foreign country. I can buy 100 Phantom Menace DVDs, I can even stand in front of my own TV with a camera and make a "fair use" copy that way, but nothing I am going to do is going to validate that asian bootleg VCD.

I do admit that I have very little respect for copyright law to begin with (due to misuse, abuse and such by holders), and I personally own bootleg Space Pilot, Kicker, Tutankhamen, Multi-Williams, and Kung Fu Master boards, along with a Space Invaders version that is rather questionable. What I am saying is either respect it or don't, just don't take the double standard approach of "It doesn't apply to what I do, but it does apply to what others do in relation to me."

[Haze]

Ah, but there is the trick, there is no such thing as a legal Zola board to begin with.

Here is an example, lets say I happen to have a bootleg copy of "The Phantom Menace" on a VCD, copied with a video camera in a movie theatre in a foreign country. I can buy 100 Phantom Menace DVDs, I can even stand in front of my own TV with a camera and make a "fair use" copy that way, but nothing I am going to do is going to validate that asian bootleg VCD.

All MAME is saying in these cases is 'we acknowledge that these bootlegs existed, the bootleggers made these hardware changes, this is how it worked'   Then if somebody comes along thinking 'i'm sure I saw a Bagman on Moon Cresta Hardware before' and looks in MAME they'll be able to see that yes, infact one did exist.  MAME is a document, acknowledging something exists doesn't make it illegal, and hardcoded CRC lists can help anybody who may have a non-working board identify what it actually is, and thus determine if they actually own a legal board.  Do you think anybody would actually want to *play* those bootlegs?

You're seeing things far too much from a gamers point of view, which is one of the problems we're having.

And no, we don't care about popularity, I don't think anybody on the dev team would care if everybody started using vantage to play their games, or raine, or anything else providing they left us alone to develop.

[paigeoliver]

Actually I am far more of a collector than a gamer. I have around 100 boardsets, have owned several hundred more, and have owned over 100 dedicated games.

[Dexter]

Is it really going to be THAT much hassle to liaise as a community with the mamedevs on this? Why don't we let the dust settle and discuss a proper fair-use policy.

There is SURELY a compromise that can be reached between a non-profit making project for the mamedevs and a hobbyist community such as BYOAC + emulation scene in general. Nobodys stealing the bread out of anyones mouths here and I'd imagine they can understand our passion for retrogaming given their involvement with Mame.

We all ultimately want the same things guys. Lets put our heads together and see if theres a way to weed out the major copyright infringers/profiteers from the hobbyists.

Dexter

[Chris]

We all ultimately want the same things guys.

No, we don't.  They want to document games; we want to play them in an arcade style environment.  They don't care about our community; they don't even like our community, because it makes them look bad.  They've said numerous times that MAME isn't meant for playing games, it's only a side effect of the documentation process.  This is, I believe, the crux of Aaron's posturing: "You don't share our ideals, so we're going to make life hard for you."

[Dexter]

No, we don't.

[Chris]

No, we don't.  They want to document games; we want to play them in an arcade style environment.  They don't care about our community; they don't even like our community, because it makes them look bad. 

Nice of you to speak on their behalf, but I think I'll wait to hear a mamedevs opinion rather than have you give it for them 

Here's part of Aaron's post on mame.net:

Those of us who work on MAME are interested in preserving the understanding of how this hardware works. The fact that there is a cottage industry for hobbyists built up around it isn't a big deal. The fact that it is expanding into a large marketplace with a large amount of copyright infringement and abuse is hugely concerning. It is important to distance MAME as far away from that as possible, because it is only going to hurt us in the long run.

So, at best, we're "not a big deal" to them, and at worst we're "infringers and abusers" that are of concern to them.  Hence my statement that "they don't care about our community" (i.e., we're not a big deal to them), and "they don't like our community" (we're abusers they're concened about).

I would love to be wrong, but they have stated the goals of their project and their "MAME isn't for playing games" stand numerous times.  This is not exactly a big suprise.

See Mame.Net Forum Post for the full post.

[Chris]

I would love to be wrong, but they have stated the goals of their project and their "MAME isn't for playing games" stand numerous times.

[Nannuu]

I think the devs owe nothing. They could just as easily pack it up and call it quits, and they have every right to do so. We don't have much room to complain here.

If your hobby is based on someone else's hand-outs, then this is what you have to put up with. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Beggars can't be choosers.

Is it annoying? Probably. Is it bad? Maybe a little. Do we have the right to complain? Not at all.

I'm with Alan here.

[quarterback]

I would love to be wrong, but they have stated the goals of their project and their "MAME isn't for playing games" stand numerous times.

[Haze]

No, we don't.  They want to document games; we want to play them in an arcade style environment.  They don't care about our community; they don't even like our community, because it makes them look bad. 

Nice of you to speak on their behalf, but I think I'll wait to hear a mamedevs opinion rather than have you give it for them 

Our primary goal is to create a document about how these various pieces of hardware worked.  The rest of the statement is a bit of an exageration, we care about the community, board owners etc, that is why we strive to keep the information contained within MAME as accurate as possible (even if we do get moaned at for changing filenames all the time, changing sets by adding extra proms to drivers and such.. but if our primary goal was games why would we do this?).  MAME was however never intended to be a replacement for the actual arcade machines being used to generate an income.

Beyond the pretty 'oooh free games' surface people seem to see in MAME is a vastly complex and technical document / piece of software detailing the how a large number of pieces of hardware worked to the best of our ability.

Claims that we wish to start any sort of war with the community are highly exagerated and overblown, simply a set of guidelines have been created in order to avoid problems for all concerned.  If you're 'MAME fans' surely you understand the need for us to work in a way which doesn't cause us problems and a part of that is ensuring that MAME is not misrepresented.  I do get a general feeling from many people however, that once the games they want to see emulated are emulated they no longer care less about the project, the developers behind the project, or the future of the project, and with the vast majority of the classics now well emulated thats a growing concern.  We are only taking these actions because we believe they are in the best interests of the project, and therefore at the end of the day the community and anybody else who follows the project.

[Dexter]

I would love to be wrong, but they have stated the goals of their project and their "MAME isn't for playing games" stand numerous times.

[Dav]

Ah, but there is the trick, there is no such thing as a legal Zola board to begin with.

Here is an example, lets say I happen to have a bootleg copy of "The Phantom Menace" on a VCD, copied with a video camera in a movie theatre in a foreign country. I can buy 100 Phantom Menace DVDs, I can even stand in front of my own TV with a camera and make a "fair use" copy that way, but nothing I am going to do is going to validate that asian bootleg VCD.

It doesn't matter that there's no legal zola boards.   If usa network had rights  to show phantom menace does it really matter where they got their copy?  The CD itself is illegal, the information on the cd is not.   If I buy 100 licenses for a software product they don't actually send me 100 cd's.  I can get the software anywhere.   

 And in fact that's happened.  Someone mentioned that some of the commercial emulator CD's have readme's along with the roms showing they were downloaded from illegal sites, doesn't make the roms illegal, just the site they got it from.

[Dav]

I would love to be wrong, but they have stated the goals of their project and their "MAME isn't for playing games" stand numerous times.

In fact, this is actually mentioned right on the mame.net homepage:

Even though MAME allows people to enjoy the long-lost arcade games and even some newer ones, the main purpose of the project is to document the hardware (and software) of the arcade games. There are already many dead arcade boards, whose function has been brought to life in MAME. Being able to play the games is just a nice side-effect.

As I said, just like being able to listen to my music CDRs is a nice side effect of my documenting albums that I never actually bought.

That would be a valid comparison if your CDRs contained only the checksums of albums and a copy of winamp. 

[Chris]

Claims that we wish to start any sort of war with the community are highly exagerated and overblown...

Now you're exaggerating.

[markrvp]

Those of us who work on MAME are interested in preserving the understanding of how this hardware works. The fact that there is a cottage industry for hobbyists built up around it isn't a big deal. The fact that it is expanding into a large marketplace with a large amount of copyright infringement and abuse is hugely concerning. It is important to distance MAME as far away from that as possible, because it is only going to hurt us in the long run.

So, at best, we're "not a big deal" to them, and at worst we're "infringers and abusers" that are of concern to them.

[Dexter]

Can't the mamedevs liaise with us here to confirm who are reputable retrogaming supliers such as andy etc and who aren't, when these suppliers are seeking permission to use mame (tm) on their webpages and so on?

I think Communication and compromise could be todays most improtant words people. When push comes to shove, mames continued development is in everybodys interest who are genuine retrogamers. The devs are entitled (especially after the ultracade crap) to protect it over the long term, and we can correspond and work with them on issues that affect us.

[Chris]

So, at best, we're "not a big deal" to them, and at worst we're "infringers and abusers" that are of concern to them.

[monkeybomb]

There are only a handful of people actually affected by this and one of them has already posted that the situation is being rectified. Our speculation can't help.

I was one complaing earlier and it was really about the vendors.  So if Dream Arcades has found a way to make it work, then so can tokn and the like.  Then IMO the problem has seen resolution.

Sure there may be room for improvement in the wording, but if "a shotgun approach" is the best way to protect people then so be it.

[KevSteele]

Sure there may be room for improvement in the wording, but if "a shotgun approach" is the best way to protect people then so be it.

I think the "one-time only" rule is still a bit harsh, but I'm definitely seeing their point of just killing all auctions with "MAME" in the title - if you're selling something legit, it will most likely work with a lot of other emulators and equipment, not just MAME-specific stuff. If you're selling ROMs...well, you got what's coming to you.

I know if I was in a situation where I had to check out dozens or hundreds of eBay auctions every day to weed out infringement and illegal sales, I'd do the same thing they've done (the shotgun "all MAME titles go" approach).

I still wish we weren't in this situation to begin with, but David Foley triggered a series of events that left us where we are today. Unfortunately, he wins - he's gotten exactly what he wanted, and doesn't even have to lift a finger anymore to kill MAME-related auctions.

Somehow, I predict the phrase "for Arcade Emulation" will become popular...

Kevin

[Dexter]

My statement that you're quoting above was only made to defend myself from Dexter's sarcastic remark.

[Chris]

I think the "one-time only" rule is still a bit harsh, but I'm definitely seeing their point of just killing all auctions with "MAME" in the title - if you're selling something legit, it will most likely work with a lot of other emulators and equipment, not just MAME-specific stuff. If you're selling ROMs...well, you got what's coming to you.

Well, my entry into this fight was regarding keyboard encoders.

[RayB]

 What a mess.

[Chris]

My statement that you're quoting above was only made to defend myself from Dexter's sarcastic remark.

[Dexter]

Well, my entry into this fight was regarding keyboard encoders.

[Chris]

Am I taking this up wrong or are you the only one seeing this as a fight? And sarcasm? And everything else.

Well, I was trying to avoid quoting your comment, but here's how your post appeared in its entirety before you edited it:

Nice of you to speak on their behalf, but I think I'll wait to hear a mamedevs opinion rather than have you give it for them

[MrTroy]

Honestly enough. How many times DO you have to use MAME in your auction? I mean it's like

Title: Keyboard encoder for use with Arcade Parts
Title: Arcade Part to PC encoder

That's two that didn't need to use MAME.

Description
blah blah blah....
Compatable with:
MAME (Recommended)
Super Karate Fighter Men
Ford
Namco's Super Pac-man for PC


Now saying
Title: Keyboard Encoder for Mame

just plain implies that it's for and only for MAME. I think that sucks. Just like saying "Floormat for Fords" makes people automatically think it's FOR Fords and that's it. If someone said Keyboard Encoder for Kid Kye's Super Juice Box game. That automatically - ugh. I 'm repeating myself.

[Timstuff]

yeah but nintendo wanted $25 per classic for the gba.  If the rates are outrageous then it won't make a difference and everyone will still pirate.

Yeah, I mean seriousely. Everyone I knew had been complaining that the classic Nintendo games werent' avalible, so Nintendo releasing them on GBA sounded good on paper. But when I read that just ONE of those classics would be the price of a brand new GBA game, I threw my Nintendo Power across the room. I'm not going to pay that much! I just turned on my PC and played the rom, to wich I also owned the original game cartridge. If Nintendo had been selling a pack of 10 classic games for like 15-20 bucks, then I'd say that's reasonable.

Anyway though, with all this talk of items being pulled off of eBay, I am not worried. It will make it harder to search for items on eBay, sure, and it's definately not fair to vendors selling something billed "Mame compatable". And the "you are allowed to say Mame once in an ad"... IANAL, but even I know that that is complete and total BS. But as I said, I am not worried... People will still find ways to sell their machines. If someone has a MAME logo on their machine, all they have to do is take the picture into Photoshop and blur it out. If search bots are involved, then people will begin simply miss-spelling MAME or spacing it out like M A M E to keep the bots from detecting it. I'm not advocating breaking the law, but I'm just saying that when you try to kill a fly with a bazooka, all you're going to do is make a really big hole in the wall.

[Chris]

Now saying
Title: Keyboard Encoder for Mame

just plain implies that it's for and only for MAME. I think that sucks. Just like saying "Floormat for Fords" makes people automatically think it's FOR Fords and that's it.

That's an excellent example.

Car floors have different shapes.

[Fat_Trucker]

Just stepping in between the handbags for a sec

[rchadd]

surely everyone will just call it M@ME on ebay

[Chris]

what they are doing seems extremely sensible as it will allow them to completely disassociate Mame from any wrong doing in the future.

I'm sorry, I disagree.

[rchadd]

foley is winning driving a wedge between mamedevs and the BYOAC community 

[Fat_Trucker]

Accepted.

My point was that MameDev are taking independent action rather than waiting for another enterprising soul like Foley to try to steal it out from under them again screaming 'foul'. Their lawyers have likely advised them that they need to take positive action to protect their trademark.
It doesn't seem like they are trying to ban the products just make people be a little more creative in the way they advertise them and associate their suitability for use with a trademarked product.

[Dexter]

Well, I was trying to avoid quoting your comment

Why? If you can quote it, its obviously already visible for the whole world to see! Quote away chief....

[spystyle]

What's the deal with this:

"you must not provide information to those who purchase your product concerning where to obtain unlicensed game software"

It should be legal and free to tell anyone how to do anything

For example:
You CAN legally buy a book on how to convert an SKS (semi-auto rifle) from semi to full-auto (a sub-machine-gun) and read it to your heart's content, for entertainment purposes. That book is sold on Amazon.com

But you CAN NOT actually do the conversion, because it's illegal (in this country, anyway)

Hell : you can even legally buy the plans to build nuclear bombs!

So the MAME dev's are telling us what we CAN and CAN NOT tell people?

I'm certian that goes against our constition...

[Thenasty]

10 Mame Commandments....Fill in the blanks

1. Thou shall not use my MAME in vain
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10

[SirPoonga]

What's the deal with this:

"you must not provide information to those who purchase your product concerning where to obtain unlicensed game software"

It should be legal and free to tell anyone how to do anything

For example:
You CAN legally buy a book on how to convert an SKS (semi-auto rifle) from semi to full-auto (a sub-machine-gun) and read it to your heart's content, for entertainment purposes. That book is sold on Amazon.com

Now take that book you bought, put it on ebay with the tools to create the bomb.  That's what is going on here.

[spystyle]

Assuming there is no plutonium included, that would be 100% legal.

Back on topic:
If there are no ROMs or copyrited software included, and no trademark infringing words, the instructions on how to find the ROMs would be protected under our "Freedom of speech"

[Chris]

For those advocating the shotgun approach, please see http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37779.0.html.

--Chris

[Chris]

Well, I was trying to avoid quoting your comment

Why? If you can quote it, its obviously already visible for the whole world to see! Quote away chief....

I did.  And you dodged the question.

[Chris]

Back on topic:
If there are no ROMs or copyrited software included, and no trademark infringing words, the instructions on how to find the ROMs would be protected under our "Freedom of speech"

The US government cannot curtail your speech.  eBay is not the government, and has every right to control the speech on their servers.

[Shape D.]

For those advocating the shotgun approach, please see http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37779.0.html.

--Chris

And If you read the last post in that thread you will see that his auctions were pulled that originally used the MAME name. and didn't actually get removed until after he edited them. they were pulled because they originally contained the word mame.

<edit> heres an example 3" MAME Trackball this isn't a friggin' MAME trackball its a Happs 3" trackball and doesn't need to be advertised as such. <edit>

[spystyle]

Back on topic:
If there are no ROMs or copyrited software included, and no trademark infringing words, the instructions on how to find the ROMs would be protected under our "Freedom of speech"

The US government cannot curtail your speech.  eBay is not the government, and has every right to control the speech on their servers.

Just because they can get away with it, dosen't make it right

The MAMEdev's are being unreasonable on this point

[SirPoonga]

Assuming there is no plutonium included, that would be 100% legal.

Back on topic:
If there are no ROMs or copyrited software included, and no trademark infringing words, the instructions on how to find the ROMs would be protected under our "Freedom of speech"

You twisted my analogy, you assume just having an auction with the info.  No, I meant auction for something like a "MAME cabinet" and the description includes the info.  Completely different.  There is a difference between freedom of speech and right to speak

You could put up an auction saying where ROMs are, just don't do it and mention mame.  The mamedevs won't take that down because it doesn't involve mame.  That's someone else's policing.  Mamedevs don't want to be associated with the possible illegal downloads and such in auctions.  That's all that line means.

[spystyle]

SirPoonga

Respectfully, I did not intend to twist your words.


Craig

[Chris]

For those advocating the shotgun approach, please see http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37779.0.html.

--Chris

And If you read the last post in that thread you will see that his auctions were pulled that originally used the MAME name. and didn't actually get removed until after he edited them. they were pulled because they originally contained the word mame.

I didn't because that last post wasn't in the thread when I posted this.

[Shape D.]

Back on topic:
If there are no ROMs or copyrited software included, and no trademark infringing words, the instructions on how to find the ROMs would be protected under our "Freedom of speech"

The US government cannot curtail your speech. eBay is not the government, and has every right to control the speech on their servers.

Just because they can get away with it, dosen't make it right

The MAMEdev's are being unreasonable on this point

As a buisness ebay has the right to refuse buisness to anyone the want.
As creators of the MAME name, logo, software and the system most people on this board are using, the mame devs have the right to tell people when and where you can use thier name.
You couln't go onto ebay selling you own version of a sony playstatin as a "spystyle playstation".
The people who are using the word MAME in the title of their auction are using MAME's good name to sell thier product, and they don't have the right ot do that.

I didn't because that last post wasn't in the thread when I posted this.

Point taken.

[SirPoonga]

SirPoonga

Respectfully, I did not intend to twist your words.


Craig

I know, actually you just simplified my example into something that suited your point of view   Well, I guess that is twisting

[SirPoonga]

Anyway, back to what I said

You could put up an auction saying where ROMs are, just don't do it and mention mame.  The mamedevs won't take that down because it doesn't involve mame.  That's someone else's policing.  Mamedevs don't want to be associated with the possible illegal downloads and such in auctions.  That's all that line means

[Shape D.]

P.S if any of the mame Devs are reading this thread and need someone who is willing to waste an hour a day searching ebay and pulling auctions for you let me know.

[spystyle]

Shape D.
You didn't read all that I wrote, we are talking about 2 different things.

I'm saying MAME dev's shouldn't say we can't tell people how to get ROMs.

I'm saying those instructions fall under freedom of speech.

I am completely cool with them copyriting the word MAME(tm) and still allowing us to use it only in a pareticular way.

You should read what I write before jumping on my case

This thread is full of people who shoot first and read posts later!

[RayB]

Threads like this make baby jesus cry. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Shape D.
You didn't read all that I wrote, we are talking about 2 different things.

I'm saying MAME dev's shouldn't say we can't tell people how to get ROMs.

I'm saying those instructions fall under freedom of speech.

Uh, spystyle, I think maybe we have a Pot .. Kettle .. Black situation here -- it doesn't look like you read the whole note from the MAMEdevs, but rather picked one line in isolation.

The MAMEdevs are saying that you can't tell people how to get illegal ROMs IF you want to use the term MAME in your auction.

They're not curtailing your rights, they're limiting your use of the term MAME. If you want to post an auction telling the world how to get ROMs, they are saying that you don't have permission to use the term MAME.

Cheers.


EDIT: And, as others will doubtlessly point out, eBay doesn't have to allow that auction if they don't want to, just like the New York Times doesn't have to print an article you write on the subject.

[Shape D.]

You should read what I write before jumping on my case

This thread is full of people who shoot first and read posts later!

I actually did, thats what I was trying to point out in the first two sentences. my point is they have the right as the creators of the software (MAME) and the buisness holding the auctions (ebay) To limit how thier product is being sold, and displayed. including when people are selling things and including information for their customers how to get "MAME roms" (wich are really just roms anyways. They do not want to be associated with illegal ties to piracy and are covering thier own hinds. yes by freedom of speach you can tell people where to get roms. but If ebay doesn't want to be a part of it they don't have to allow you to inform people on thier site. just like if you told people here where to get roms saint or another mod would delete your instructions.

[Setabs]

6. You must not include any unlicensed game software (ROMs or CHDs) or artwork with your product. Furthermore, you must not provide information to those who purchase your product concerning where to obtain unlicensed game software.

7. You must not mislead the buyer with pictures or lists of games that do not come included with your product. Any games or pictures you use must refer to properly-licensed games that are included with the purchased product.

I don't see how this guidline has anything to do with MAME(tm).  Mainly the artwork seeing how they covered mame art work earlier.

 Is it really their responsibilty about the buyer being misleading w/ pictures and game lists.  Shouldn't that be an issue between the buyer and seller?

Just search for MAM3 next time.

Freedom of speech has nothing to do with e-bay.  It is a private buisness that can censor speach.  If they wanted to they could randomly pull auctions off for no reason, its their site.  I do think they give to much to the IP owners without hearing both sides.

I think the "compatible with MAME" should be aloud in titles.  I completely understand the "mame cabinet" problem.

[CheffoJeffo]

6. You must not include any unlicensed game software (ROMs or CHDs) or artwork with your product. Furthermore, you must not provide information to those who purchase your product concerning where to obtain unlicensed game software.

7. You must not mislead the buyer with pictures or lists of games that do not come included with your product. Any games or pictures you use must refer to properly-licensed games that are included with the purchased product.

I don't see how this guidline has anything to do with MAME(tm).  Mainly the artwork seeing how they covered mame art work earlier.

This is how:

Based on the abuses we have seen in the auctions on eBay and elsewhere, we are attempting to define rules surrounding the usage of the MAME trademark.

Below is what we currently have defined.

The numbered items are the rules surrounding the usage of the term MAME.

Cheers.

EDIT for typo.

[SirPoonga]

Bah, just go change your auctions to say emulation instead of mame and be done with it.  sheesh.

[jelwell]

Had to respond to this part -- I hope that in fact you never have seen an advertisement for a MAME DVD on this forum as I specifically have such things blocked.

Haze must have been talking about mame.net:


It's a shame that mame.net has to profit off of things like "Mame Arcade" and "Complete MAME Arcade". The last ad is my favorite:

"Mame Video Arcade Cabinet Play Centipede & 5000+ arcade games plus xbox on 1 video arcade cabinet".

And yes I know that you can't actually buy the 5000+ arcade games from that vendor - but the vendor did decide to take advantage of that keyword. Oh and I'll let you guys figure out which vendor, linked from mame.net, is selling a cd with a MAME32 binary on it.

I just think it sucks that MAMEdevs have decided to enforce trademark issues rather than licensing issues (trying to sell MAME binaries, or closed source derivatives).
Joseph Elwell.

[Shape D.]

Haze must have been talking about mame.net:

He could have been talking about here too. they do show up here every once in a while. It seems like saint does his best to keep them off, but they do pop up evry now and again. the only way to block them is to block the individual site.

[Haze]

Haze must have been talking about mame.net:

He could have been talking about here too. they do show up here every once in a while. It seems like saint does his best to keep them off, but they do pop up evry now and again. the only way to block them is to block the individual site.

I was talking about here, I've seen a few on my visits.

Believe it or not we've been as tough as we can be with the ones on Mame.net, the problem is half of the remaining ones seem to be some kind of generic ads rather than for a specific seller...  We don't have direct control over the advertising so we have to contact the hosts in each case.

The problematic ads on mame.net was one of the deciding factors in dropping mame.net as the official page and moving to mamedev.com which as you can see is ad-free.

Anyway as I've been informed attempts are made here to control the ads, and I thank you for that, this is big business for the scumbags doing it, I once recieved an email offering a 3 figure monthly amount to host ads for their rom dvd site, thats how much it means to them and thats why its becoming a severe problem (given the price of dvds its pretty much a no expenditure all profit 'business').  These people also try their best to work around any ad bans we put in place, registering new urls as fast as we can block them.

I'll fire out the usual reminder that by supporting such people you're damaging the project and the reputation of it, it was never meant to be used to make people huge sums of money.

[KevSteele]

For those advocating the shotgun approach, please see http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37779.0.html.

I've talked to Mike at DreamArcades - he's been in touch with Aaron about this, and it seems that the deleted auctions today were due to some sort of "hiccup" with eBay.

Unfortunately, eBay also told DreamArcades they were going to pull their account because of continued violations (when there were none).

Aaron's trying to straighten it all out...

kevin

[Shape D.]

I once recieved an email offering a 3 figure monthly amount to host ads for their rom dvd site.

I'm willing to bet that ammount would be greatly lowered if offered anywhere else. An ad on mame.net (wich would seem like a great endorsement) would pull in a ton of revinue for whomever got their ad there. keep on  !

[divemaster127]

Ok, I have a question now auctions are already back on ebay with this in the title MAME(tm) so it that now acceptable or will these be canceled, I would think this violates the terms also
thanks

[Shape D.]

Ok, I have a question now auctions are already back on ebay with this in the title MAME(tm) so it that now acceptable or will these be canceled, I would think this violates the terms also
thanks

It takes ebay time to cancel these I'm sure they will be cancelled as well.

P.S. I have never sold anythin on ebay but I know they charge you for it. If you get an auction pulled do you lose that money?

[KevSteele]

P.S. I have never sold anythin on ebay but I know they charge you for it. If you get an auction pulled do you lose that money?

Looking at the VeRO notice, it mentions that the seller's listing fees will be refunded.

[saint]

Amusingly (?) enough, I found another one on the site here just now and added it to the banned list. That's 11 sites I have banned from Google Ads for being ROM sites. I wish Google would let you filter ads by keyword instead of by URL...

--- saint

I was talking about here, I've seen a few on my visits.

[Chris]

Unfortunately, eBay also told DreamArcades they were going to pull their account because of continued violations (when there were none).

This is why I'm worried about Aaron's approach.  To Aaron it's a convenience to shoot everyone down; to eBay, everyone he VeRO's is a pirate.

[froggerman]

Threads like this make baby jesus cry. 

Not only him!   

[Tiger-Heli]

6. You must not include any unlicensed game software (ROMs or CHDs) or artwork with your product. Furthermore, you must not provide information to those who purchase your product concerning where to obtain unlicensed game software.

7. You must not mislead the buyer with pictures or lists of games that do not come included with your product. Any games or pictures you use must refer to properly-licensed games that are included with the purchased product.

I don't see how this guidline has anything to do with MAME(tm).  Mainly the artwork seeing how they covered mame art work earlier.

 Is it really their responsibilty about the buyer being misleading w/ pictures and game lists.  Shouldn't that be an issue between the buyer and seller?

Speaking for Aaron, I think his wording was a little bit vague on the artwork issue, but I think what he is getting at is:

If you have a Donkey Kong image (which you drew, therefore unlicensed) on your arcade cabinet, you are in violation of Nintendo's trademark, and if you mention "Compatible with MAME(tm)" in the item description, MAMEdev does not want to risk MAME being associated with it, but I doubt they would pull the ad for this.

I have seen many cabs on E-bays which say "Plays 5,000 games" - then has 3 dozen MAME screenshots (probably not even on the same computer that is included).  I think this is what Aaron was meaning to go after.

[Shadowgate]

The best solution for the community in my opinion would be to come up with another word that describes a "Mame machine". Mame is really only one useable piece of software so its not really a good descriptor but if the community switches to a new word that essentially describes the same thing there is no issue of a copyright violation.

[Setabs]

The best solution for the community in my opinion would be to come up with another word that describes a "Mame machine". Mame is really only one useable piece of software so its not really a good descriptor but if the community switches to a new word that essentially describes the same thing there is no issue of a copyright violation.

Could it be something like....








Uh I dunno.........































Possibly...........




























Emulation machine
arcade cabinet
PC arcade cabinet


The words are already there. 

People just use "MAME machine"  so they have a better chance of higher bids.  But  thats an infringment on the TM.  That's why you could use words like "emulation machine" or "PC arcade machine."  It would be nice if they allowed "MAME compatible Arcade Cabinet" or something similar for titles. 

sorry for making this long I just did it for fun!

[Crazy Cooter]

Looks like I'm late to this one.  Of course (as always ) here's my opinion:

1) The MAME devs don't want to be associated with or be seen as people providing "thousands of games" for free.

2) Their claim to the trademark must be enforced or it becomes pointless and they will not have a legal right to it.

3) They don't want to spend hours each day policing ebay.

I don't see anything wrong with what they have done other than pulling the ebay trigger before notifying each person.  HOWEVER, is it up to them to comb through ebay and pick out the "good guys"?  There are many many people that use the word MAME in their auctions and it would be very time consuming to sort them all out.  Instead, it appears that they just dropped napalm and are working with the "good guys" to clean up anything that was hit in error. http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37734.msg336994.html#msg336994
That seems reasonable IMO.

Per "Rule" Comments:
1. You cannot use the trademark "MAME" in the title of your auction.
Are you selling MAME?  Is your item only for MAME?  No and no.  Why use it in the title then?  It's only an attempt to increase sales of the product by using the perceived connection to the MAME name.

2. You may use the phrases "compatible with MAME(tm)" or "works with MAME(tm)", but you may only mention it once in your ad.
At first thought the 1-time rule seems harsh, but really it's not.  Once you say it's compatible, what else needs to be said?

3. You must not use the trademark "MAME" in the name of your product. This only implies official endorsement and we do not endorse products.
4. You must not use the MAME logo under any circumstances; this again implies official endorsement.
I don't think anyone has issues with this.

5. You cannot include MAME or a derivative thereof with what you are selling unless you obtain permission. At this time, we are still discussing under what circumstances, if any, MAME will be permitted to be included with commercial products. If you have already requested permission, your request will be answered once a decision has been made.
This *should* be obvious anyhow.

6. You must not include any unlicensed game software (ROMs or CHDs) or artwork with your product. Furthermore, you must not provide information to those who purchase your product concerning where to obtain unlicensed game software.
CYA.  I don't think they can really do anything about the artwork portion, because if you did have permission they wouldn't know about it anyhow.  The rest is just to space MAME away from the "illegal" ROM's.

7. You must not mislead the buyer with pictures or lists of games that do not come included with your product. Any games or pictures you use must refer to properly-licensed games that are included with the purchased product.
Surely a leftover from Foley.  This reeks like the "unfair competition" crap he was yelling about.  It is an indication as to the true intent of the seller though.

Mostly the MAME devs are going through a lot of hassle to protect themselves and the work they are doing.  They could just say nobody can use the MAME name anywhere.  It's really not up to us to determine what will/will not damage what they want MAME to represent.  That's up to them and what the "rules" are for.

"David Foley triggered a series of events that left us where we are today."
I'm starting to wonder whether Foley was the cause or the effect... of course he's still craptacular IMO .

btw Haze, would you take a look at this thread:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,36710.msg324573.html#msg324573
Considering where everything is heading, I think a dev's comment would be greatly appreciated.

[Chris]

HOWEVER, is it up to them to comb through ebay and pick out the "good guys"?

[Crazy Cooter]

According to the terms of use for their trademark (and as far as I understand who has been affected), they were the right targets.  If it was a "hiccup", that is being addressed.

[Chris]

According to the terms of use for their trademark (and as far as I understand who has been affected), they were the right targets.

[Tiger-Heli]

According to the terms of use for their trademark (and as far as I understand who has been affected), they were the right targets.  If it was a "hiccup", that is being addressed.

Correct!  I don't think there is an issue as far as MAMEdev is concerned with Good Guys and Bad Guys (whether you have a legitimate product or a cabinet that plays 5,000 gameses), as far as trademark and E-bay are concerned.

MAMEdev said forums may use MAME without TM, web pages must include TM at the first reference to MAME, and otherwise, seek permission to use it.

This was very publicly announce at www.mame.net and www.mamedev.com and BYOAC and time was given for it to be addressed.

The only "good guy" exceptions would be sellers (if any) who previously contacted Nicola and were told that they would be allowed to use MAME in their E-bay ads or E-bay ad titles and then had their ads pulled.

And I am fairly sure MAMEdev will take care of these situations if any exist.

Again, this shouldn't be such a big deal to anyone.

[Chris]

The only "good guy" exceptions would be sellers (if any) who previously contacted Nicola and were told that they would be allowed to use MAME in their E-bay ads or E-bay ad titles and then had their ads pulled.

So let's say I'm a guy who was into MAME a year ago.  So I've lost touch, the parts sat in my garage, and it's time to get rid of them.  Wow, I have enough parts for 30-40 auctions!  I haven't been keeping up with MAME, so I'm not aware of Aaron's power trip.

I put my auctions up.  Aaron goes to town.  I've just been thrown off eBay for 30 VeRO violations.

How is this guy such a "bad guy"?

This is what we call collateral damage.  This is what happens when people think they are so important they can destroy everything in their path because they are so much righter than anyone else.

[Tiger-Heli]

Their Terms of Use are unreasonable and not backed up by law

I think that will only be determined when one of the sellers sues the mamedev team for loss of revenue, defamation of character, loss of market standing due to lowered reputation, etc.

- The far majority of eBay sellers don't frequent this forum and have no clue the MAMEDevs are claiming such wide-ranging rights to a word that they have APPLIED for.

They do now!!!  (Also the far majority of E-bay sellers are misusing the term as their items are not strictly limited to MAME or in some case even very largely associated with it.)

[Crazy Cooter]

Their Terms of Use are unreasonable and not backed up by law

I think that will only be determined when one of the sellers sues the mamedev team for loss of revenue, defamation of character, loss of market standing due to lowered reputation, etc.

Correct.  The same would go for "artwork violations".

Chris, Once the "TM" has been placed, all rights go to the person that put the TM next to it.  Until it is "disproved" by the USPTO, that person has every right to enforce their claim to it's use.  It doesn't have to be a "registered" trademark.

"Any time you claim rights in a mark, you may use the "TM" (trademark) or "SM" (service mark) designation to alert the public to your claim, regardless of whether you have filed an application with the USPTO. However, you may use the federal registration symbol "

[Chris]

MAMEdev said forums may use MAME without TM, web pages must include TM at the first reference to MAME, and otherwise, seek permission to use it.

What's ironic is when they, for example, break Galeco's or Namco's encryption and announce it on their Web pages, I don't see them putting a TM after the names of all the companies who's IP they're stepping on...

In fact, there is not a single TM on mame.net or mamedev.com, for MAME or Sega or Konami  or Data East (these are the company names that appear in mame.net at the moment).

[Chris]

Chris, Once the "TM" has been placed, all rights go to the person that put the TM next to it.

[Tiger-Heli]

Chris, Once the "TM" has been placed, all rights go to the person that put the TM next to it.  Until it is "disproved" by the USPTO, that person has every right to enforce their claim to it's use.  It doesn't have to be a "registered" trademark.

"Any time you claim rights in a mark, you may use the "TM" (trademark) or "SM" (service mark) designation to alert the public to your claim, regardless of whether you have filed an application with the USPTO. However, you may use the federal registration symbol "

[Chris]

That says they can use the trademark, which means they can enforce the trademark.

It wouldn't do Ford (TM?) much good to Trademark the Blue oval and silver script if I could just put a blue oval and silver Ford script on my product with a TM after it and sell it.

The word Ford appears in over 4000 categories on eBay.

[Tiger-Heli]

That says they can use the trademark, which means they can enforce the trademark.

It wouldn't do Ford (TM?) much good to Trademark the Blue oval and silver script if I could just put a blue oval and silver Ford script on my product with a TM after it and sell it.

The word Ford appears in over 4000 categories on eBay.  There are too many results for it to actually return the number of auctions that use Ford as a keyword.  None of the auction titles use a oval logo on them.

And I believe that if Ford so chose (and thought it was profitable for them to), they could go after any and all of them for trademark violation, especially if they had from the iniitiation of the trademark taken litigation to prevent it's usage in the title of E-bay auctions (which they obviously haven't, but MAME has).

IMNAL, though.

[Chris]

And I believe that if Ford so chose (and thought it was profitable for them to), they could go after any and all of them for trademark violation, especially if they had from the iniitiation of the trademark taken litigation to prevent it's usage in the title of E-bay auctions (which they obviously haven't, but MAME has).

IMNAL, though.

Having a trademark doesn't give you the absolute right to control every form in which a word appears.

Specifically:

- The MAME trademark is limited to software, according to the category Nicola filed in.  Aaron can't do a DAMN THING about a hardware only auction, like a button or a joystick. He is only succeeding because eBay will err on the side of caution and approve almost any VeRO complaint.

- Trademarks have to be used in commerce.  MAME is free.  When the mark is published for opposition, any of the numerous people he's pissed off can probably kill the application.  He could probably get it approved as a service mark instead of a trademark, but he'll probably have to start over again.

- There are fair-use allowances for using a trademark even against that entity's wishes.    It's what keeps Microsoft from being able to have a bad review of Windows from being yanked from a Linux magazine, and what keeps Coke from preventing the use of their logo in a Pepsi commercial.

--Chris

[Chris]

More on fair use:

1. Trademark Fair Use

While a trademark will protect a word which is used by a manufacturer or merchant to identify goods and distinguish them from others, trademark law will not prevent the use of such a word in good faith with a primary purpose of describing a product or service, and not to infringe the trademark resembled by it. Several different factors are considered in determining whether a court will determine that a use is an infringing use or a fair use.

(emphasis added)

Thus, "Floormats for Ford Taurus" and "Keyboard Encoder for MAME" are allowed, and "Ford Taurus Floormats" and "MAME Keyboard Encoder" could be pulled.

From doing some reading, it seems like the rule of thumb is that if the trademark is used as an adjective, it's probably infringing, and  if it's used as a noun it's probably not.

[patrickl]

Chris,

I agree with you, but wouldn't you rather have the mamedevs spending their time on refining MAME than on going through adds seeing if they are "fair" or not?

I mean, the mamedevs probably don't really have the right to enforce the TM as agressively they do now, but the alternative is for them to actually read and judge all the ads. Let alone the endles (time wasting) debates you get on why such and such auction is allowed and another is not.

[MonitorGuru]

Okay, I fully support MameDev's efforts (as noted by my previous posts). Listing things with MAME in the name clearly will only lead to the destruction of Mame as a project once Atari, Nintendo, Sammy, etc... start-a-suing.

[Chris]

PS: I also believe multiple snapshots from emultated games included on their WIP pages probably violate "fair use" rights from these manufacturers as well.

So, if you are going to go after others (which I do support), you d*mn well better get your own house clean before doing so, or you will look the fool, much like Foley with his illegal play that started all of this.

Yes, we and the MAMEDevs should be very thankful that the multitudes of game manufacturers don't treat us the way the MAMEDevs treat people regarding trademarks.  This whole scene would be over in a heartbeat.

[Haze]

But I HAVE A (non-rehtorical) QUESTION FOR HAZE (or other MameDev's):

If you are sending out terms that state you cannot mention/include Artwork, etc..  then why the H*11 does Mame.Net offer downloads of ARTWORK and SOUND SAMPLES.... *CLEARLY* copyrighted material NOT OWNED BY THE AUTHORS OF MAME, on a site that HAS been directly controlled by MameDev???

PS: I also believe multiple snapshots from emultated games included on their WIP pages probably violate "fair use" rights from these manufacturers as well.

I've said several times I don't think mame.net should be hosting the artwork etc.  Its not like that section is ever even maintained.

Anyway, if you haven't actually noticed we've moved away from mame.net, the only official Mame site is now mamedev.com, which we have direct control over (unlike mame.net)

Screenshots, I can't think of a single case where somebody has kicked up a fuss over screenshots unless its been from an alpha / beta under a non-disclosure agreement so I'd say a precedent has been set in that posting screenshots is just fine.  People using MAME screenshots on ebay auctions is irritating tho, can't really see which version of a game something is, or if it works at all.

[RandyT]

IANAL, but given the nature of the MAME project, the screenshots may be covered under fair-use.  They are not being used for commercial advantage, but in support and demonstration of the effectiveness of the technology.

In other words, it's hard to show that something works, without showing it

But I could be wrong.

RandyT

[Adeptus]

Chris, Once the "TM" has been placed, all rights go to the person that put the TM next to it.

[Sasquatch!]

Guys, instead of trying to pick apart the legalities of it and trying to find loopholes in their request, just keep in mind "The MAME devs made these requests; and I will now choose to accept or ignore them."  There is no "right" and "wrong" with what they choose to do with their own name...they have the authority to ask whatever they wish.  Sheesh.

[Chris]

Reminds me of an Indiana Jones boardgame (or was it cardgame?)
They had a Nazi card/picture, with a TM after the word Nazi...

[KenToad]

Just wanted to say, you have made a good argument, Chris, very thought-provoking. 

Everyone who supports Mame (TM) quakes in their boots now whenever the program is used commercially and they reject additions that make the emulator function more easily in a commercial setting.  I've heard several people on these boards say that Mame is legal.  Is it really legal or has it just not been tested legally either separately or by a coalition of interested parties (Capcom, Namco, Sega, Nintendo, for instance) who might actually sue if the program starts getting media attention for, say, making millions for those guys selling the DVD's full of roms?  What have the legal challenges consisted of so far and why are MameDevs and others so fearful of the project for posterity being threatened if the project has already been legally tested? 

Any links or clarification would be appreciated.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Crazy Cooter]

The BLEEM! emulator went through court (vs. Sony) and it was determined that emus are legal.

Everyone who supports Mame (TM) quakes in their boots now whenever the program is used commercially and they reject additions that make the emulator function more easily in a commercial setting.

MAME isn't intended to be used commercially.  Honestly, it isn't intended to be used in a cabinet that has a full ROM set either.  If it is used in a commercial environment, whoever does it is really opening themselves to some serious legal liability.  If commercial use is encouraged (through a FE that "manages" credits for example), it will raise flags for Capcom, Namco, Nintendo & the rest.  They won't aim for the emulator (MAME), they'll aim for the end user, the FE authors, and the rest of the people who make it easy to use MAME commercially.  Legally, MAME is legit.  But are the FE's?  Are the ROM Burners?  Are the sites that off the ROM's?  Are the ROM's on your machine?  Probably not because they aren't necessary to troubleshoot/archive/restore a pcb board.  So who is going to be brought into court?  The easy kills or the tough battle?

[Chris]

The BLEEM! emulator went through court (vs. Sony) and it was determined that emus are legal.

It's possible, though, that some or all of the encryption-breaking stuff in MAME is illegal.

[KenToad]

The BLEEM! emulator went through court (vs. Sony) and it was determined that emus are legal.

Everyone who supports Mame (TM) quakes in their boots now whenever the program is used commercially and they reject additions that make the emulator function more easily in a commercial setting.

MAME isn't intended to be used commercially.  Honestly, it isn't intended to be used in a cabinet that has a full ROM set either.  If it is used in a commercial environment, whoever does it is really opening themselves to some serious legal liability.  If commercial use is encouraged (through a FE that "manages" credits for example), it will raise flags for Capcom, Namco, Nintendo & the rest.  They won't aim for the emulator (MAME), they'll aim for the end user, the FE authors, and the rest of the people who make it easy to use MAME commercially.  Legally, MAME is legit.  But are the FE's?  Are the ROM Burners?  Are the sites that off the ROM's?  Are the ROM's on your machine?  Probably not because they aren't necessary to troubleshoot/archive/restore a pcb board.  So who is going to be brought into court?  The easy kills or the tough battle?

Yeah, that makes sense to me, but, if you're arguing that this guy shouldn't sell Mame related merchandise and that guy shouldn't make an FE that passes coin count, how does that relate to Mame and the posterity issue raised by Haze?

KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

What have the legal challenges consisted of so far and why are MameDevs and others so fearful of the project for posterity being threatened if the project has already been legally tested? 

I think MAME is on solid ground as far as the ability to simulate hardware in different software environments.

If anything MAME is on shaky ground on the "inducement to infringe" area.

See Patent Doc's comments earlier in the thread, here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37734.msg336870.html#msg336870

[Tiger-Heli]

Yeah, that makes sense to me, but, if you're arguing that this guy shouldn't sell Mame related merchandise and that guy shouldn't make an FE that passes coin count, how does that relate to Mame and the posterity issue raised by Haze?

Okay - look at this (fairly possible) scenario.

Guy makes FE that passes coin count.

Arcade operators build arcade emulator cabs using MAME and the new FE.

Namco sues arcade operators, FE author and MAME dev team b/c their Reunion game sales are sliding due to everyone using cheaper arcade emulator cabs with MAME and new FE.

MAME is found to infringe on NAMCO's rights (probably under the clause above) and all work on the project is ordered ceased.

Obscure bootleg board that Haze or Rb or other MAMEdev's were working on will never legally be decoded and documented, so posterity loses out.

Got it?

[Crazy Cooter]

Or the MAME dev's just stop working with MAME to stay out of court and avoid a 6-figure lawyers bill.

Just because emu's were determined legal once before doesn't mean that Namco/Capcom et. al. won't spend money to "revisit the issue".  Right now, 99.9% of people just play with this stuff at home.  The gaming companies don't care enough to go to court and rehash this out.  Turn it into a cash producing venture by making it easy to drop games on location and it's a whole different animal.

[KenToad]

The BLEEM! emulator went through court (vs. Sony) and it was determined that emus are legal.

It's possible, though, that some or all of the encryption-breaking stuff in MAME is illegal.

I read a book about Nintendo's business history.  They have been in several lawsuits involving decryption, most memorably with Tengen.  You guys in your late twenties, like myself, will probably remember that Tengen made a far superior version of Tetris and some other cool games for the NES that were not given the official Nintendo seal of "quality."  Nintendo sued and, if I remember correctly, it came out that Tengen had used reverse engineering and were forced to stop selling games.  Am I totally forgetting what went on there?  There were also a couple of other game companies that were sued and I can't remember the specific details here at work.  Also, I seem to have lost the book recently.  It had Mario flying on the front.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.  Have the MameDevs addressed these issues legitimately, especially with the recent decryption of the golf games and some other very profitable franchises (Tekken)? 

Cheers,
KenToad 

*Edit* 2 new replies while I was typing

Yeah, that makes sense to me, but, if you're arguing that this guy shouldn't sell Mame related merchandise and that guy shouldn't make an FE that passes coin count, how does that relate to Mame and the posterity issue raised by Haze?

Okay - look at this (fairly possible) scenario.

Guy makes FE that passes coin count.

Arcade operators build arcade emulator cabs using MAME and the new FE.

Namco sues arcade operators, FE author and MAME dev team b/c their Reunion game sales are sliding due to everyone using cheaper arcade emulator cabs with MAME and new FE.

MAME is found to infringe on NAMCO's rights (probably under the clause above) and all work on the project is ordered ceased.

Obscure bootleg board that Haze or Rb or other MAMEdev's were working on will never legally be decoded and documented, so posterity loses out.

Got it?

Tiger-Heli, so your argument is that Mame wouldn't be judged legal if it can be used in a commercial setting at all?  The scenario you refer to is very debatable as to how simple it would be to implement right now.  It seems like you guys are worried about the fuse on this bomb, blowing on it when you know it will explode at any moment.  I support Mame wholeheartedly, but I don't accept the argument that it is not already an underground project.  No users who support the continued development of this project want it to get any bigger, because they are afraid that it can be challenged at any moment.  Given that reasoning, allowing the continued development of projects relating to Mame shouldn't be lorded over by anyone, least of all the developers of Mame, since the whole project is on shaky legal ground anyway. 

I support this project.  It just seems like some folks are justifying both ends of the debate, i.e. certain projects and/or commercial ventures shouldn't be allowed to continue because the advancement of accurate emulation must be allowed to continue, no matter that everyone seems to agree that many of the companies who own the rights to these boards do not agree.

Hope I didn't piss anyone off, least of all you, Tiger-Heli.  I just want this argument to continue to develop.  I think these are some of the most important issues concerning emulation today.  I welcome challenges to my arguments and especially further info.  I will check on the link you provided, Tiger-Heli, after I type this.  Thanks for that. 

Cheers,
KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

Or the MAME dev's just stop working with MAME to stay out of court and avoid a 6-figure lawyers bill.
Just because emu's were determined legal once before doesn't mean that Namco/Capcom et. al. won't spend money to "revisit the issue".  Right now, 99.9% of people just play with this stuff at home.  The gaming companies don't care enough to go to court and rehash this out.  Turn it into a cash producing venture by making it easy to drop games on location and it's a whole different animal.

Right, plus currently it's small fish - i.e. Namco isn't going to spend $35,000 in court costs to go after a BYOAC member with a cab in their basement and get a judgement that could make them file bankruptcy which doesn't make them any money.

Give them a profitable corporation that they can go after . . .

[Chris]

Have the MameDevs addressed these issues legitimately, especially with the recent decryption of the golf games and some other very profitable franchises (Tekken)?

[Tiger-Heli]

Nintendo sued and, if I remember correctly, it came out that Tengen had used reverse engineering and were forced to stop selling games.

I only vaguely remember the issue, but I think that's your answer.  Tengen wasn't in trouble for reverse engineering, but for selling games based on the reverse engineering.  MAME really isn't selling anything (although providing the same things free of charge would be the same thing, so MAME's not out of the soup).

Tiger-Heli, so your argument is that Mame wouldn't be judged legal if it can be used in a commercial setting at all?

Well, it's hard to say what is judged legal until someone judges it legal in court.  I think if it is used in a commercial setting, it could be illegal, not necessarily just because it could be used.  For example, JC Whitney used to (still does?) sell "test" pipes that were the exact size and mounting flange as your cars catalytic converter.  These were legal but installing them on your car in place of the cat was not...

The scenario you refer to is very debatable as to how simple it would be to implement right now.  It seems like you guys are worried about the fuse on this bomb, blowing on it when you know it will explode at any moment.  I support Mame wholeheartedly, but I don't accept the argument that it is not already an underground project.  No users who support the continued development of this project want it to get any bigger, because they are afraid that it can be challenged at any moment.  Given that reasoning, allowing the continued development of projects relating to Mame shouldn't be lorded over by anyone, least of all the developers of Mame, since the whole project is on shaky legal ground anyway. 

I support this project.  It just seems like some folks are justifying both ends of the debate, i.e. certain projects and/or commercial ventures shouldn't be allowed to continue because the advancement of accurate emulation must be allowed to continue, no matter that everyone seems to agree that many of the companies who own the rights to these boards do not agree.

I don't quite follow your logic here.  If you are talking about encoders and steering wheels on E-bay, MAMEdev isn't trying to stop development of them, just not including MAME in the auction title.  If you are talking about FE's with coin counters, these either violate (in a commercial setting) or serve virtually no other purpose than to make it easier to violate the license of MAME.

And personally, whether or not it is used commercially, I think it could be shut down tomorrow on legal grounds, but I hope it isn't b/c I like playing the gameses.

Hope I didn't piss anyone off, least of all you, Tiger-Heli.

Takes a lot to piss me off, but I missed some of what you were trying to argue.

[Chris]

I only vaguely remember the issue, but I think that's your answer.

[KenToad]

Or the MAME dev's just stop working with MAME to stay out of court and avoid a 6-figure lawyers bill.
Just because emu's were determined legal once before doesn't mean that Namco/Capcom et. al. won't spend money to "revisit the issue".  Right now, 99.9% of people just play with this stuff at home.  The gaming companies don't care enough to go to court and rehash this out.  Turn it into a cash producing venture by making it easy to drop games on location and it's a whole different animal.

Right, plus currently it's small fish - i.e. Namco isn't going to spend $35,000 in court costs to go after a BYOAC member with a cab in their basement and get a judgement that could make them file bankruptcy which doesn't make them any money.

Give them a profitable corporation that they can go after . . .

I don't know--99.9%?  I just don't understand how you guys can argue the "easier" point.  Mame is what makes it easy.  Mame is the only part of the equation that seems difficult for individual users to pull off alone.  I couldn't do either part.  I'm mostly paraphrasing what other programmers on this board have said.   

Are there any profitable corporations involved in Mame right now?   

Remember, just pushing the envelope of this argument.  I think PatentDoc was fairly ambiguous.  He seems to be taking the "just don't rock the boat and disagree with the MameDevs" line.  Maybe he will post more later like he said.

Cheers,
KenToad

*Edit*

Nintendo sued and, if I remember correctly, it came out that Tengen had used reverse engineering and were forced to stop selling games.

I only vaguely remember the issue, but I think that's your answer. Tengen wasn't in trouble for reverse engineering, but for selling games based on the reverse engineering. MAME really isn't selling anything (although providing the same things free of charge would be the same thing, so MAME's not out of the soup).

I'll have to check on that again.  I really thought it was the reverse, that Tengen could have sold the games if they had developed a different method, such as a proprietary system that didn't alter or destroy Nintendo's technology, of getting around Nintendo's lockout.

The scenario you refer to is very debatable as to how simple it would be to implement right now. It seems like you guys are worried about the fuse on this bomb, blowing on it when you know it will explode at any moment. I support Mame wholeheartedly, but I don't accept the argument that it is not already an underground project. No users who support the continued development of this project want it to get any bigger, because they are afraid that it can be challenged at any moment. Given that reasoning, allowing the continued development of projects relating to Mame shouldn't be lorded over by anyone, least of all the developers of Mame, since the whole project is on shaky legal ground anyway.

I support this project. It just seems like some folks are justifying both ends of the debate, i.e. certain projects and/or commercial ventures shouldn't be allowed to continue because the advancement of accurate emulation must be allowed to continue, no matter that everyone seems to agree that many of the companies who own the rights to these boards do not agree.

I don't quite follow your logic here. If you are talking about encoders and steering wheels on E-bay, MAMEdev isn't trying to stop development of them, just not including MAME in the auction title. If you are talking about FE's with coin counters, these either violate (in a commercial setting) or serve virtually no other purpose than to make it easier to violate the license of MAME.

In a nutshell, what right do underground developers of software, which simulates proprietary hardware that they do not own, have to tell anybody else not to use their acronym in a commercial product?  Like Chris pointed out, nobody else does this, not even Microsoft unless, like you point out, it's an established business.  When an established business of some millions of dollars of legitimate income pops up, then let's get worried about the possible dominos falling into the mame project.

Cheers,
KenToad

[KenToad]

I only vaguely remember the issue, but I think that's your answer.  Tengen wasn't in trouble for reverse engineering, but for selling games based on the reverse engineering.  MAME really isn't selling anything (although providing the same things free of charge would be the same thing, so MAME's not out of the soup).

The DMCA makes the reverse engineering itself illegal now.  I'm not sure how that applies to projects that started before the DMCA became law, or the work that's gone on outsde the US.

Sorry, could you explain DMCA, please.  Also, I have to leave the argument for now.  I'll check back later.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Chris]

Sorry, could you explain DMCA, please.

[ChadTower]

It's funny to me.  I've been saying and posting for months that the amount of abuse of MAME, by people to make profit, as well as by people who simply do not respect MAME for what it is intended to be, has gone too far.  Every time I did I had to defend myself against multiple parties and was sent all sorts of nastygrams privately. 

This is the sort of thing I was trying to warn about.  If I were the MAME devs I'd have done it sooner, stronger, and I suspect it will be done that way before it is softened.

[Haze]

I only vaguely remember the issue, but I think that's your answer.  Tengen wasn't in trouble for reverse engineering, but for selling games based on the reverse engineering.  MAME really isn't selling anything (although providing the same things free of charge would be the same thing, so MAME's not out of the soup).

The DMCA makes the reverse engineering itself illegal now.  I'm not sure how that applies to projects that started before the DMCA became law, or the work that's gone on outsde the US.

recent exemptions made reverse engineering obsolete hardware legal.  while you could argue to mars and back what represents obsolete hardware the majority of the supported titles in MAME are no longer being sold by the original manufacturer.

this is the change that many misinterpeted as making all old software (roms etc.) perfectly legal to download, it isn't, what it does appear to clear up however is the emulation of protected titles (eg all the work that was done on the Sega S16 hardware recently; fantastic work too I may add, making 'suicide' arcade boards  should be a criminal offense, we're yet to find some of the older ones in working condition because the batteries are all dead and they can't be emulated until we do)

[Chris]

making 'suicide' arcade boards

[Haze]

Needless to say, as already observed, for the most part MAME has been left around, if any requests have been made to not include something we've respected those.

In the past MAME will have had little to no impact on actual arcade sales, but with an increasing number of people building and selling MAME cabs which can be operated for profit (and people hacking up the emulator to emulate games which are still being sold as new) the situation is changing somewhat.

Some may credit the continued interest in classic gaming to emulation, or that the popularity of emulators indicates there is still a market for such games, Arcade manufaturers have also noticed this, hence the rereleases on updated hardware.  Again this makes cabinets playing those games a more serious threat to the profits of the manufactuers.  (As pointed out by DF / Ultracade)

Anyway, it should be quite obvious that MAME was never intended as a project to take income away from the actual arcade manufacturers and that we need to try out best to make sure MAME is not being abused in that way.  MAME and emulation in general has become too popular, and thus too widely abused for its own good (and as previously stated we'd be quite happy if everybody just switched to something else and left us alone)

[Shape D.]

I understand pulling off auctions for people intentionally using the MAME name to sell a product. but are these being pulled as well?

Mame on Ebay


Mame (pronounced "Ma-May") and Shito are the smallest of bonsai, ideally being no more than 10cm in height, however Shito Bonsai can be so small that they are grown in pots the size of thimbles. Both terms refer to the size of the tree, so they may be seen in all .

[Crazy Cooter]

So I can see why the MAMEDevs want to go after infringers strongly.

[JB]

Nintendo sued and, if I remember correctly, it came out that Tengen had used reverse engineering and were forced to stop selling games.

I only vaguely remember the issue, but I think that's your answer.  Tengen wasn't in trouble for reverse engineering, but for selling games based on the reverse engineering.  MAME really isn't selling anything (although providing the same things free of charge would be the same thing, so MAME's not out of the soup).

Actually, Tengen got in trouble because they DIDN'T reverse engineer the lockout chip.

They illegally obtained a copy of the patent by claiming they needed it for a lawsuit against Nintendo, then used the patent information to make their own version of the lockout chip.

So Nintendo sued them and won.


Reverse-engineering is legal, provided it's done properly.

Note, for example, the oft-cited Bleem! legality.
One of Sony's first lawsuits was in regards to the PS1 BIOS. Bleem! pointed out that their emulated BIOS was reverse-engineered, with no original Sony code in it. They won, as they would win all the cases filed against them until they went bankrupt.

[KevSteele]

They won, as they would win all the cases filed against them until they went bankrupt.

There is an awful lot of truth about this situation in that one little sentence...

Kevin

[Lilwolf]

Wow... I'm REALLY amazed at this thread.

Chris, get over it.

[paigeoliver]

Earth to EVERYONE.

The horse got out of the barn 5 years ago. There have been self contained Mame powered zillion game JAMMA boards being made in Asia since 2000 (possibly earlier).

It has been going on for 5 years, without the Mame name, without ebay, and in a manner that all this nonsense is going to effect in absolutely no way whatsoever.

The fact is that those suckers STILL can't make money on location, neither can Ultracades or Reunion Machines or 39 in 1s. There just isn't any interest anymore.

There are two kinds of operators left, those that are out of business, and those that are only staying afloat by selling off their warehouses. Note places like Chuck E Cheese and Dave and Busters are restaurants, and are financially structured as such, and make their money on the food.

[Lilwolf]

I agree... But that doesn't mean anyone here should be openly going against the MAMEdev's wishes... just because they feel they are above that... or that they might not make as much money on their ebay items.

come on.  this is rediculous.

[Chris]

2nd, EBay IS A AUCTION HOUSE.

[ChadTower]

The fact is that those suckers STILL can't make money on location, neither can Ultracades or Reunion Machines or 39 in 1s. There just isn't any interest anymore.

I've seen some local Reunion cabs that charge .50 and have 10 minute wait periods at night.  They do bring in money, but probably not enough to justify paying four grand for $400 in material.

[KenToad]

Nintendo sued and, if I remember correctly, it came out that Tengen had used reverse engineering and were forced to stop selling games.

I only vaguely remember the issue, but I think that's your answer.  Tengen wasn't in trouble for reverse engineering, but for selling games based on the reverse engineering.  MAME really isn't selling anything (although providing the same things free of charge would be the same thing, so MAME's not out of the soup).

Actually, Tengen got in trouble because they DIDN'T reverse engineer the lockout chip.

They illegally obtained a copy of the patent by claiming they needed it for a lawsuit against Nintendo, then used the patent information to make their own version of the lockout chip.

So Nintendo sued them and won.


Reverse-engineering is legal, provided it's done properly.

Note, for example, the oft-cited Bleem! legality.
One of Sony's first lawsuits was in regards to the PS1 BIOS. Bleem! pointed out that their emulated BIOS was reverse-engineered, with no original Sony code in it. They won, as they would win all the cases filed against them until they went bankrupt.

You're right, JB.  I knew I was getting something confused, but couldn't quite figure out what.  Thanks for the clarification.

So, I wonder if anyone could tell me what might happen today in a reverse engineering suit regarding the DMCA?  Patentdoc?

If people weren't at risk of losing their eBay accounts and reputations over what Aaron is doing, this would be a simple academic discussion.  But the MAMEDevs are mere mortals, just like us, and questioning the "shoot first and ask questions later" attitude isn't disrespect.  I don't buy into the "if you're not with us you're against us" mentality.

--Chris

Agreed.  I think you can disagree with the Mamedev's current decision to beat DF/Ultracade at his own game and still support the Mame project. 

As a side note, I wonder if anyone has ever seriously challenged ebay's right to both act like a shopping mall with vacant storefronts for vendors to occupy and sell things repeatedly and at the same time like the neighborhood garage sale with a few things getting sold by individuals at little to no profit as under the table income.  Maybe both Ebay and the Mamedevs have these strict policies because they both know that they're a hair's width from getting shut down. 

Anyway, that was just something I thought about during this argument/debate.  I wouldn't be surprised if someone takes it personally, but I really hope not.  That said, I believe that there are several different arguments occurring at once in this thread.  Personally, my argument is like the teacher's, since I'm a substitute teacher as well as a journalist in my daily life.  As a teacher, you can't set stricter rules for the bad kids than you can for the good kids.  Many times, I come into a class and I have to crack down on everyone, although I would love to just get the good kids and let them go buzzing down the road of education.  The best example of this is the fighting rule.  I sometimes will stop some elementary school kids from wrestling on the playground.  They say "We're friends."  I'm sure I could let them go at it all day, no problem, but, since there are other kids around who would definitely get hurt or misinterpret the rules, I have to stop it all.  Also, I have to set a good example and follow my own rules.  Otherwise, I would get emulated.     So I think this applies to the Mamedevs in the sense that they must address the legalities in their own project before they call the teacher to tell on the other kids on the playground.  I think it can be gathered from this thread that the Mamedev's have not earned the right to become the keepers of posterity by enabling software to imitate proprietary hardware they do not own.  Similarly, once they figure out the legality, they must follow their own rules if they wish to be respected.  Until those conditions are met, I support the Mamedevs for doing what they do best, not for being the bulldogs of Ebay, although that doesn't affect me in the least.

Again, if you think my reasoning is invalid, shoot it down with a reason.  As always, I don't intend to infuriate anyone.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

What I think may be getting missed is the MAMEdev's are just programmers working on a project for free in their spare time.

If the project starts becoming commercialized (someone) may generate a lawsuit (whether they can win it or not) to shut the project down, most likely over copyright violation.

Pulling E-bay ads is a way to keep MAME from appearing commercialized, but someone (whether they can win it or not) is likely to generate a lawsuit, most likely under unfair trade restriction, in this case.

The question is, when MAMEdev's legal department says "We feel we can prevail in either of these lawsuits, but it may cost us $250,000 to fight it out in court, or we can cease and desist and take our ball and go home", what will the dev's do.  What would you do in their place?

[Chris]

If the project starts becoming commercialized (someone) may generate a lawsuit (whether they can win it or not) to shut the project down, most likely over copyright violation.

I agree.  But I don'r believe selling spare buttons or keyboard encoders are over-commercializing.  Are you saying you think OSCAR, Ultimrc, and GroovyGameGear should shut down to avoid harming the MAME project?  What about Shawnzilla's coming translucent buttons?  Sure, they could be used on any machine, but they're being made for us...

The question is, when MAMEdev's legal department says "We feel we can prevail in either of these lawsuits, but it may cost us $250,000 to fight it out in court, or we can cease and desist and take our ball and go home", what will the dev's do.

[KenToad]

What I think may be getting missed is the MAMEdev's are just programmers working on a project for free in their spare time.

If the project starts becoming commercialized (someone) may generate a lawsuit (whether they can win it or not) to shut the project down, most likely over copyright violation.

Pulling E-bay ads is a way to keep MAME from appearing commercialized, but someone (whether they can win it or not) is likely to generate a lawsuit, most likely under unfair trade restriction, in this case.

The question is, when MAMEdev's legal department says "We feel we can prevail in either of these lawsuits, but it may cost us $250,000 to fight it out in court, or we can cease and desist and take our ball and go home", what will the dev's do.  What would you do in their place?

Generally, I agree with you, Tiger-Heli, but I think that the more active role the Mamedevs are playing now will land them in hot water quicker than if they just let the thing go as it always has.  Just have a look at the DF/Ultracade incident.  Nobody cared about him until he tried to be the bulldog.  Of course, I may be mistaken.  It may be his actions that caused Aaron Giles to become the enforcer in the first place.  I hope not, although we obviously don't know what transacted between those players during that hullaballoo.  Maybe the Game companies are actually requesting that the Mamedevs act this way?  I guess we'll just have to speculate until the truth is revealed.

Cheers,
KenToad

*Edit* Agreed, Chris, you posted as I typed.

[Tiger-Heli]

As I remember things (and there may well be a lot of Behind-the-scenes stuff I'm missing).

DF/Ultracade tried to shut everyone else down, by applying for a trademark on MAME and claiming trademark violations.

Nicola applied for a MAME trademark, basically to keep DF from being granted it and possibly forcing the project to be shut down and/or re-named.

MAMEdev is going after E-bay auctions, in part, because if a trademark holder does not enforce their rights to a trademark, the trademark is considered to fall into public domain and their rights evaporate.

And most likely, they are overstepping their bounds and yes, there may be more legal repercussions from their actions than if they had ignored the situation, hard to say.

IANAL, though, and even if I was, it's hard to predict what will happen.  You can see this just from the past 10 replies in this thread with different individuals saying the DMCA either protects or prevents what MAMEdev are working on.

[Lilwolf]

LOL! 

4th.. Why in the heck do you think you should be able to make money off of MAME?

[KenToad]

Yup, Tiger-Heli, I think we're in agreement.  I also thought it was DF that had withdrawn his application for the TM.  What I and what I think we all might be wondering is: Why did he withdraw his application instead of just playing it out?  It couldn't have been the flaming he was getting on his own forum from BYOAC members. 

[KenToad]

MAMEdev is going after E-bay auctions, in part, because if a trademark holder does not enforce their rights to a trademark, the trademark is considered to fall into public domain and their rights evaporate.

I also think there is a difference between what they are currently doing and enforcing their rights to a trademark.

Cheers,
KenToad

[RayB]

*sigh* ...

Here are some bottom lines, relating to a number of arguments in this thread.

1. Stop citing Bleem as a precedent. Bleem existing before the DMCA was enacted. The DMCA has changed the playing field.

2. The argument that MAMEdev's "shotgun" approach to auctions is acceptable because they don't have time to go through all auctions is nonsense. Think of the amount of time and extra crap they are now going through to sort out the LEGITIMATE people who got "busted"? Let's face it, they took a lazy approach and now have to waste more time than they otherwise would have.

2B. The ONLY auctions that should be pulled are all-in-1 cabs that violate the use of their software, ROM sales, etc. Screw TM arguments. TM arguments are strictly a result of FOLEY pulling the puppet strings. I have NO doubt here about this. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the MAMEdevs made their agreement with Foley without even consulting a lawyer. They are probably following some ridiculous agreement with Foley (rather than having fought it), and now look at the mess...

3. Comparisons to Ford, are to a degree accurate. Do you all not think that auto companies at some point in time didn't want everyone to only buy their car parts? Of course. But most of us weren't even born yet when those battles too place, so we don't remember such a time. I'd have to look up some supporting facts here, but I'm pretty sure i remember reading that car manufactures at one time wanted to control parts sales so only their parts were "legal". That of course didn't pan out, and now we have the right to after-market parts.

Same thing here to a degree. If someone wants to sell parts that work with MAME, that is their right.

[Chris]

2B. The ONLY auctions that should be pulled are all-in-1 cabs that violate the use of their software.

And MAME DVD auctions.  Definately those.

[Tiger-Heli]

Yup, Tiger-Heli, I think we're in agreement.  I also thought it was DF that had withdrawn his application for the TM.  What I and what I think we all might be wondering is: Why did he withdraw his application instead of just playing it out?  It couldn't have been the flaming he was getting on his own forum from BYOAC members. 

Foley may be sharper than we give him credit for, or he may have gotten lucky.  And there may or may not have been some "back-room deals"

As I was hinting earlier.  DF probably didn't think he could actually trademark MAME, it was probably a bluff - But if he says he is applying to trademark it and that such and such sale is in violation of the trademark and his attorney will be contacting the seller, some sellers are just going to cave and take his word for it.

And if MAME trademarks it and starts trying to restrict auctions, that works in his favor also, although he may or may not have foreseen this.

[Crazy Cooter]

Foley had to back out of the TM thing.  He knowingly filed a false claim (a criminal offense).

I posted in the other thread too but I was wondering:
How does it work with ebay as far as pulling auctions automagically?  The Mamedevs aren't looking at them, I doubt ebay is looking at them, so it must be automated.  That's probably why the Mamedevs said to put "X" in your auctions.  Nothing more, nothing less.  That way it would pass the filter.  If you want to put more, ask.

Consider two examples on ebay:
1- A cabinet kit that can run MAME.
2- A cabinet running MAME.

The kit says "compatible with MAME".  If they want to say more, they can ask and possibly receive "permission" to do so (most likely putting their ebay account past the filter).

The MAME cabinet can't accurately describe what it is without hitting the filter.  They wouldn't get permission either (obviously).

So far it looks like they have been working with those that have had auctions pulled that shouldn't have.  They really only had two options:
a) Automate it.
b) Police it each and everyday... by hand... nonstop.
"a" is waaaaay less time intensive and gets them back to what they want to do.

RayB... it's ebay, a private auction site.  They can remove auctions as easily and with every right that Saint can ban a user here.  They can and often do supercede basic laws and freedom of speech and often don't make sense.   That's ebay.  If it were a regular store, they would have never lasted a month with the policies they have.

BLEEM! is still a precedent.  What will happen when (not if) it gets revisited is beyond me.  But for now it still stands even with the DMCA.  Where they clash is the realm of expensive lawyers.  Personally, I don't want to see it all go back into the courts.  I'd give emulators (as a whole) about a 50/50 chance.

[monkeybomb]

Foley had to back out of the TM thing.  He knowingly filed a false claim (a criminal offense).

Didn't he also falsely claim to be the owner and send cease and desist letters.  I think he even tried to get money from one of the marquee printers, as the holder of the trademark.

[Crazy Cooter]

Yeah he did, that's why I was encouraging other to pursue the matter against him.  He didn't have a leg to stand on.

Has anyone found anything on ebay about automated "policing"?  I can't find squat other than if you hand picked each one...

[quarterback]

Has anyone found anything on ebay about automated "policing"?

[pcb]

2B. The ONLY auctions that should be pulled are all-in-1 cabs that violate the use of their software.

And MAME DVD auctions.

[Avery]

My favorite dumb e-bay aution to date - barrel locks, like you'd use for a coin door,  dutifully labeled as compatable with mame (tm). 

Based on that logic my desk is compatable with mame.  I'm starting to understand where the mamedevs are comming from.

[Tiger-Heli]

My favorite dumb e-bay aution to date - barrel locks, like you'd use for a coin door,  dutifully labeled as compatable with mame (tm). 

Based on that logic my desk is compatable with mame.  I'm starting to understand where the mamedevs are comming from.

LOL, or your Pentium 200 (that one might even be legit), or the monitor, or the house you put the cab in . . .

[Tiger-Heli]

Here's a fairly good or bad summary of how we got to this point: http://retroblast.com/articles/TSR_editorial.html

Thanks KevSteele for hosting this.

<edit> added the red text.

[kahlid74]

BLEEM! is still a precedent.

[NiN^_^NiN]

my hands weren't compatiable with mame joystick on a mame cab so i had to buy some new hands off ebay so i had mame compatiable hands 

[KevSteele]

One bright spot in the ongoing 'copyright wars' is the fact that the "broadcast flag" proposal for digital TV was thrown out. With the flag, broadcasters could have specified what can and cannot be recorded.

One thing that I hope the RIAA mess has shown is that it is pointless to crack down on infringement until a legal alternative is available. Don't just tell people not to do something: give them a legal way. Cracking down on illegal music, ROMs, or whatever when there is no legal way to download content is only going to force people to consider themselves "outlaws" and continue doing what they were doing.

I just saw a report this morning that iTunes now has more traffic than P2P sites (how they measured this I don't know), but it brings home a point: people generally want to do the right thing, but when a legal route is not available, they will wander the trail less traveled.

It pains me to say this, but I really hope that Foley's "i-ROMs" service is a success. If we can get reasonably priced legal ROMs, MAME can step out of the shadows and all of this trademark nonsense will be pointless. None of this would be happening if legal ROMs were available.

I'm trying to write an article about this situation, and I've actually been in contact with David Foley via email. I got some surprising answers to my questions, and I'm now going to be interviewing Aaron Giles, as I really want to try and present a balanced view of why this happened and what's next for the MAME community.

Kevin

[Chris]

It pains me to say this, but I really hope that Foley's "i-ROMs" service is a success. If we can get reasonably priced legal ROMs, MAME can step out of the shadows and all of this trademark nonsense will be pointless. None of this would be happening if legal ROMs were available.

I disagree.  The defenders of the MAMEDevs' actions keep saying this is about legal protection, but the MAMEDevs themselves say this is about keeping people from making any money off their name.  In that respect, having legally-available ROMs will make the trademark situation worse, not better.

[KevSteele]

It pains me to say this, but I really hope that Foley's "i-ROMs" service is a success. If we can get reasonably priced legal ROMs, MAME can step out of the shadows and all of this trademark nonsense will be pointless. None of this would be happening if legal ROMs were available.

I disagree.

[Tiger-Heli]

It pains me to say this, but I really hope that Foley's "i-ROMs" service is a success. If we can get reasonably priced legal ROMs, MAME can step out of the shadows and all of this trademark nonsense will be pointless. None of this would be happening if legal ROMs were available.

I disagree.  The defenders of the MAMEDevs' actions keep saying this is about legal protection, but the MAMEDevs themselves say this is about keeping people from making any money off their name.  In that respect, having legally-available ROMs will make the trademark situation worse, not better.

I can't say how it will all shake out, but I think what MAMEdev is really trying to do is keep the project from being shut down if some anti-piracy coalition gets involved.

If Roms are legalized (i-ROMS), MAME gains legitimacy, and I don't think the dev's will care as much about enforcing the trademark.

Of course, that also means you may no longer be able to download MAME and may see MAME in a box at Best Buy (remember what ended up happening with BLEEM).

Another issue to be resolved is ROMS for Bootleg games that are in copyright violation in their own right.  Can these be sold through i-ROMS?  Will they be removed from MAME?  What about ROMS that the original copyright owner is out of business and their successor is in dispute?  What about say NAMCO that may have rights to the ROMS currently in MAME and no interest in making them available at any price?

[Tiger-Heli]

Well, bottom line is this: on eBay, MAMEdev's wishes rule unquestioned. In the "real world," who knows? I'm curious about what's going to happen if a company like MAMEroom decides to fight rather than change names. Will MAMEdev decide it's worth the trouble and expense of taking them to court?

CyberPunk (MAMEroom) has already said in this thread,  that he contends his company was named irrespective of MAME the emulator and prior to it's existence, and he will not change it without a court battle.  He also (probably accurately) claims that he was USING the name in commerce prior the MAMEdev's trademark application, so if MAMEdev takes him to court, he will likely countersue that MAME is a derivative of his company name and they must cease operations under that name as trademark infringement on MAMEroom.

Yes, indeed, outside of E-bay, and with lawyers involved, things get sticky real fast!

[HoopstarsGarage]

My 2 cents worth..

MAME was from the start about the enthusiast keeping the old stuff alive - MAME was exactly what this very site is about - Build Your Own...!!  It IS free.  ROM burners essentially do it for free.  People on this very website offer so much for free - and why?
Because they are passionate about keeping the dream alive..

I do not support those selling "complete solutions" on EBay because I think they threaten the very nature of why the companies that OWN these ROMs have left us and the MAMEdev's alone - because it is a non-profit thing.

These people selling their wares on Ebay are almost rubbing it in the noses of the proprietary owners of these ROMs and threaten everything that this site and our community is about.

[RayB]

Using MAME as a keyword to sell barrel locks is stupid, but the MAMEdevs are not "the stupid police".

VERO notices say that "under penalty of perjury" (or something to that effect) the complainant claims there's an infringement...

The MAMEdevs had better be careful with their "shotgun" approach, as they will be guilty of perjury making certain claims that turn out false.

[ChadTower]

How many people have thought so far as to consider that while this is primarily about profiting from mame illegally, it may also be about illegal roms and the original spirit of MAME?  Maybe they just don't want people making MAME cabs anymore since 99% of them are not based on legally licensed games.

[kahlid74]

How many people have thought so far as to consider that while this is primarily about profiting from mame illegally, it may also be about illegal roms and the original spirit of MAME?

[ChadTower]

If you take what you said into consideration then the whole project from the start was based on testing against illegal roms.

[Tiger-Heli]

If making it harder to build MAME cabs is one of the byproducts of the effort against MAME based commerce, so much the better for them.

And as Haze has stated, if everyone gets PO'd at the MAME team not supporting their requests and hassling E-bay sellers and decides they'd rather use Raine, that will be fine with them as well!

[RayB]

So I was working on my Vantage cab last night...
 

[ChadTower]

And as Haze has stated, if everyone gets PO'd at the MAME team not supporting their requests and hassling E-bay sellers and decides they'd rather use Raine, that will be fine with them as well!

Exactly.  The hand that has been feeding these idiots has finally been bitten too many times.  I'm surprised it took this long.

[kahlid74]

There is a difference between reverse engineering a couple of boards to preserve them, and building a MAME cab with 7000 games on it, having contributed nothing to MAME or preservation.

I agree, I was just being devils advocate in making sure you realize that while there is a difference, it's all still considered illegal.

I also agree they are tired, and also that possibly after avoiding/not thinking about legal implications something happened that made them have to proactively govern something they built out of passion for creativity and ideas.

[Crazy Cooter]

Here's a fairly good summary of how we got to this point: http://retroblast.com/articles/TSR_editorial.html

Thanks KevSteele for hosting this.

That's one of the most biased articles I've ever read (no offense Kevin).  It sounds like a commercial for Ultracrap.  ROM's are not mp3's.  Show me where the back of a Centipede game has the same legal verbage as a cd does.  It isn't there.  Apples to Oranges.

"In a contentious move the company exploited the neglect of the MAME team copyright or licenses their name and logo, attempted to acquire the rights for themselves - hoping from this position of power to directly attack those illegal users, or just shake up MAME."
Foley commited a CRIME doing this.  How in the world is that a "contentious move"?  It's a crime.  A bully tactic.  Yet Foley is painted as some savior?  That's sad.

I don't see how calling the MAMEdevs neglectful and not grown up, the MAME fan-base immature all while painting Foley in a white suit is even close to a balanced article.

"As defensive as when the music industry attempted to close down NAPSTER, accusations against UltraCade were thrown freely. Stung into action the MAME developers bit the bullet and took hold of their responsibility, and through last-minute negotiations with UltraCade took over the control of the MAME trademark, "

Accusations of willfully filing an illegal trademark application?  Look on the USPTO site, It's a crime.  Read under "

[ChadTower]

[Crazy Cooter]

There's no way I could make a face like that without crapping my drawers.

Let the photochopping begin...

[ChadTower]

That could be what he's doing.

[jfunk]

Heh.  With all that's happened, the title of this ebay auction makes me chuckle:

ULTRACADE NOS Side ART both sides -perfect for MAME cab

I'm guessing it won't be around long 

(Please note, this is just something that made me laugh.  I'm not sure, yet, where I stand on this whole mess, so please don't take this as my entry into the debate    )

Here you go, Paige..  Complete that cab 

[Chris]

If the MAMEDevs have any sense of humor, they'll leave that one up! 

[paigeoliver]

Heh.  With all that's happened, the title of this ebay auction makes me chuckle:

ULTRACADE NOS Side ART both sides -perfect for MAME cab

I'm guessing it won't be around long 

(Please note, this is just something that made me laugh.  I'm not sure, yet, where I stand on this whole mess, so please don't take this as my entry into the debate    )

Here you go, Paige..  Complete that cab 

If there was a "buy it now" then it would already be gone.

[Tiger-Heli]

If there was a "buy it now" then it would already be gone.

Okay, everyone don't bid and let Paige get this one (if it hangs around).  I won't post his E-bay name, but it's similar to his avatar.  (Paige let me know if that was out-of-bounds and I'll edit it out).

[paigeoliver]

It will never last the 6 days it has remaining, and if I DID get it then I would probably (STUPIDLY) apply it to my woodgrain cabinet that has the Ultracade marquee.

But if there had been a buy it now button then I would have already bought it.

But I DO have a bid in, so lets see what happens.

[Lilwolf]

btw.. I love your ebay name!

[KevSteele]

Kevin, you can take offense to this part: It didn't surprise me in the least to click on your ad that brought me directly to this page: http://www.arcadegamesuperstore.com/arcadelegends.htm

[RayB]

MAME is the victim of its own success right now. Hopefully things will settle down and once the dust clears we can all have a clearer view of where things are headed...
Kevin

Kind of like Napster.

[Tiger-Heli]

Kind of like Napster.

Bingo!  With one notable, previously mentioned exception - MP'3 were a different format of songs that were clearly copyright protected.  ROMS as far as I know (at least the classics) were previously not copyrighted because at the time they were produced, no one could imagine them being duplicated, AFAIK.

[KevSteele]

Kind of like Napster.

Bingo!

[Tiger-Heli]

I don't know how it all works in the software world, but I know that creative works are automatically copyrighted at the time of creation (whether or not you apply for a copyright).

Except I think it makes a difference if you publish the work (in this case, release the game) and it gets out in the public domain and you don't challenge violations of it.  I.E. if Namco comes down on most Pac-Man repro artwork (which they do) they can enforce a copyright on it.  I'm not sure if they can say "MAME violated out game copyright eight years ago and we didn't challenge it, but now we're upset.

The MP3 format and readers can be analgous to MAME, while ROMs and songs ripped into MP3 format are similar, at least the way I'm looking at the situation.

Technically, I disagree, although I think it might not be especially hard to convince a judge to see it your way, which would probably be all it takes.

[KevSteele]

Except I think it makes a difference if you publish the work (in this case, release the game) and it gets out in the public domain and you don't challenge violations of it.

I don't know if you need to enforce a copyright to keep it. It's not like a trademark, which must be enforced.

That's one of the problems here: copyrights, trademarks, and patents all protect IP, but in different ways and with different rules and loopholes.

Kevin

[Haze]

I don't see how the Napster comparisons apply.

MAME does not in any way facilitate the sharing of ROM files.

If you must compare MAME to something related to the music situation then compare it to Foobar, or Winamp.  It knows how to play the files, but does not come with them.

MAME contains a database of known ROM images, and how to load them, that in itself I'm pretty sure can't be considered Illegal, consider it like a fan site with a tracklisting of the CD on it, and information on track lengths.  (Aren't there free legal databases of this type of thing used for identifying CDs? http://www.freedb.org/ etc?)

MP3s/Roms also isn't a great comparison, MP3s are reduced in size to make distribution easier at the cost of quality (as MP3 is a lossy compression format)  The ROM images supported by MAME aren't modified in any way, they are as read from the arcade PCBs, ease of distribution is not our concern.  (Zip is supported for convenience as the zip structure contains CRC information etc, we've rejected multiple requests to make Mame support other compression schemes like Rar to save space)

One thing you can be sure of, if somebody did write a P2P program and integrated it with MAME so that Roms were automatically shared we would make every effort to get them shut down, but until that day MAME can't be compared with Napster.

I will however agree that MAMEs popularity is a large problem.

[KevSteele]

My comparison was with MP3 players (ala Winamp), so it sounds like we're closer on that part.

Basically, the infractions come when someone rips a song image or a ROM image and then shares it.

MAME is not facilitating ROM IP violations in any way other than allowing you to actually do something with that ROM image once you've (illegally) obtained it.

That may be enough of a violation to a judge, but I doubt it - RIO survived legal threats that claimed MP3 players facilitated copyright infringement, and I think that RIAA has given up on trying to squash MP3 players now that legal DRM songs are available.

In other words, legal ROMs would be a godsend in this situation, essentially removing the main reason to step on the MAME project anymore.

Kevin

[Shape D.]

legal ROMs would be a godsend in this situation

There are, www.starroms.com    Not many but there are legal roms out there.

[KevSteele]

legal ROMs would be a godsend in this situation

There are, www.starroms.com

[Crazy Cooter]

I hate to stir the pot here, but Foley did two things in his trademark grab: he got the phrase and the logo.

It can be argued that his grabbing the phrase MAME was possibly legal (unethical, but legal) since it was not being used in a commercial fashion.

The logo, on the other hand, was copyrighted material that was not his in any shape or form.

Kevin, read what I pointed out to you on the governments USPTO site.

[Haze]

Yes, StarRoms having Atari Roms available and Hanaho with the Capcom Classics is undoubtedly good for Mame in that sense.  They do give people who wish to actually play the games a legal way of doing so without interfering with the actual development of Mame in any way.

Legal roms could end up presenting a little of a headache for the devs as people who have purchased roms seem to think they have even more right to expect them to work than others (although they seem to be more of a problem with those who have purchased them off illegally scumbags on ebay, I don't recall anybody complaining about their Legal roms)  We're not a support team, we're a development team, although so far, as mentioned, we haven't really had any major issues with this from legal buyers, despite making major changes to several Atari sets over time so fingers crossed things stay that way and that the people purchasing the legal sets remain more polite about things.

The DRM Roms issue mentioned in previous threads on this board is something more of a concern, thankfully nobody has attempted this yet, I don't think it could work anyway so theres probably no need to worry about that... To me it is a highly gamer-orientated idea which would seriously hinder development and make using the roms for other legitimate purposes (repairs etc.) and compatibility with other emulators impossible.  DRM, open source software and development projects don't really mix.

It would be nice to see more people like Star Roms, although people should keep in mind that in most cases these roms are being licensed for home use *only*.

Love him or hate him it will be interesting to see what Ultracade come up with because we're always glad to see legal sources of ROMs.

[Crazy Cooter]

Take a look at the Ultracade site http://www.ultracade.com/, read the front page and point out what benefits us.

Look at the StarRoms site http://www.starroms.com/, read the front page and point out what benefits us.

Who would better serve our interests?

[Crazy Cooter]

While I'm ranting about Ultracade, Look at his "usblinx".

I'm not an expert, but can anyone name the emulators besides MAME that can support dual trackballs.  If he thinks MAME is soo illegal, why is he selling products aimed for it?  The dude is a walking contradiction.  I hope he gets ZERO support from the industry.  I know for a FACT he won't from Namco, he was already busted for selling their ROM's illegally (how soon we all forget huh?).  He already demanded money from people with his illegally filed MAME trademark, he already pulled numerous auctions on ebay...

Yet people think the MAMEdevs are the bad ones.   Yeah, what have they ever done to make you're life more enjoyable?

Beware Haze, the only way Foley will ever get distribution rights is with DRM.  He doesn't want ROM's that will be compatible with MAME because it isn't his.  He's aiming for the cabinets, the ROM's, and the emulator.  Then nobody can compete without paying the "Foley Fee"^TM.  He doesn't care about fixing old boards, his concern is maximizing profit margins.

[kahlid74]

Beware Haze, the only way Foley will ever get distribution rights is with DRM.

[MrTroy]

Then nobody can compete without paying the "Foley Fee"TM.

The Foley Fee! No one can stop the Foley Fee.

Oh man I can't stop laughing.

[Q*Bert_OP]

I hate to stir the pot here, but Foley did two things in his trademark grab: he got the phrase and the logo.

It can be argued that his grabbing the phrase MAME was possibly legal (unethical, but legal) since it was not being used in a commercial fashion.

The logo, on the other hand, was copyrighted material that was not his in any shape or form.

Kevin, read what I pointed out to you on the governments USPTO site.

[RayB]

FYI all of you...

When I said "Like Napster" I was not comparing the two apps' functions. I was referring to this:

Napster was fine as an underground tool and it was tolerated for quite some time until it became too popular and received mainstream attention. The inevitable outcome was that Napster died. It was a victim of it's own success.

Kevin said: "MAME is the victim of its own success right now. Hopefully things will settle down and once the dust clears we can all have a clearer view of where things are headed..." To which I replied "Like Napster".

Do you guys understand the comparison now?

~Ray B.

[ChadTower]

[amerish]

I agree that the developers have a right to protect MAME. I believe people have a right to sell hardware that can be used with MAME and should be able to mention that the hardware can be used with MAME.

One of the real problems is the bundling of roms with the hardware... Still today if you search ebay you can find machines with MAME and roms loaded...

<Link pulled by saint - ebay auction appeared to contain illegal software on cabinet>

Take out the roms!!!

from the auction
You are looking at a custom built Mini MAME arcade machine. MAME is Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator. This is a compact cabinet (styled like a Pac-man) designed to be an attractive, fun addition to the rec-room without taking up the space of a full sized machine. Its dimensions are: 13"W*25"H*26"D roughly and weighs just enough to be sturdy in game play.
It has a vertically mounted 14" monitor, PII computer, IPACve USB control interface, and controls consisting of an 8way joystick, 6 game buttons, coin and player start buttons. The computer and monitor power switches are both external so no reason to open it up- however its easy to get into.

I will leave software installed- up to the buyer to deal with licensing issues.