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TOKN KB16 ENCODERS
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markrvp:

--- Quote from: mattp on June 02, 2005, 03:09:03 am ---it's not plug and play

--- End quote ---

I think you mean it's not hot-swappable.
Tiger-Heli:

--- Quote from: mattp on June 01, 2005, 10:40:06 pm ---All,
The TOKN KB16 is not implemented in what would be called a traditional keyboard matrix.
There is no row and column scan or search and there are also no ghosting issues. No diodes are needed nor used.
Rather it is a two ground multiplex with high speed interleaved byte latching on a single microcontroller port.
Very effective and very fast for getting port status to the microcontroller and keycodes to your game session.
These are details that the user need not worry about. Its just an implementation detail that is unique to
the TOKN KB16 encoder. Hopefully someone will do some benchmark tests in the near future. Now that would
be interesting. Hey Mr. Kevin Steele, do you own a square wave generator that can simulate some high speed
button mashing?
Cheers,
Matt

--- End quote ---
Thanks for the clarification.  Is it safe to assume that the KB32 uses a 4-ground multiplex?
Tiger-Heli:
Good summary Mark, I just have a few things to add.

--- Quote from: markrvp on June 02, 2005, 04:17:41 am ---
--- Quote from: mattp on June 02, 2005, 03:09:03 am ---it's not plug and play

--- End quote ---
I think you mean it's not hot-swappable.  I have yet to see a modern encoder that is not Plug & Play (meaning the computer recognizes it as a keyboard without the need for additional drivers).

--- End quote ---
Actually, what you mean is it's not USB - in other words hot-swapping is not officially supported by the specification.  Neither is the KB16, but I understand that you were trying to make a point for the keyboard pass-thru.  Having said that, I hot-swap the KeyWiz all the time, and one of the best uses posted so far for the KB16 (individual encoders for swappable panels by Buddabing) would require hot-swapping of the KB16.

--- Quote ---It is my understanding that that is how your board also works, except that your board only supports 16 inputs as compared to the 32 inputs supported by the Keywiz.

--- End quote ---
There are other differences - in order of importance to an arcade cabinet user:

32 useable inputs for the KeyWiz as opposed to 16 useable inputs for the KB16.

24 Shifted inputs for admin keys for the KeyWiz as opposed to 0 for the KB16.  (And KeyWiz admin keys can be activated automatically with a single button using RandyT's adapters).

Keycodes can be loaded from software (stored codesets can be loaded from a batchfile prior to launch) for the KeyWiz as opposed to manual input from a keyboard prior to application launch for the KB16.

Two codesets (the default MAME compatible and one programmed one) are always loaded and available by pressing the Shazaam! key and moving the joystick left or right (unique to the KeyWiz).

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I would expect direct input to a microprocessor line (KeyWiz) to perform better than multiplexed connections (KB16), but I suspect the KB16 is not noticeably slow in typical applications, and I have never seen a head-to-head test of any encoder on performance issues.

KB16 uses EEPROM, KeyWiz uses SDRAM but KeyWiz software can be used to load the last used keycode, creating a Virtual EEPROM mode.

Wiring is sortof a toss-up, but not a big deal either way.  With the KeyWiz, you can run a single ground wire to all of your microswitches and back to the encoder.  With the KB16, you either run individual grounds, or you run at least two separate ground wires to connect your microswitches.  The practical implication of this is that I could hook a Perfect 360 or Druin interface to any input on a KeyWiz.  On a KB16, I would have to carefully make sure that all the inputs were on the same ground bank.  In reality, this is probably not a concern, as with 16 total inputs, it is usually not practical to do dual Perfect 360's, etc. 

--- Quote ---I haven't seen anyone attack your products here without first being provoked by one of your BS statements.  Knock it off.

--- End quote ---
Well, in fairness, I probably have attacked the product without being provoked first by one of his statements, but that is because it stacks up so poorly.  To summarize - these are the only situations where the KB16 excels over the KeyWiz Eco:

As mentioned above, the unit could be useful as a dedicated controller attached to removable panels.  Here, EEPROM is the determining factor.

For a single player (or two player alternating) cabinet - the unit would be acceptable, if the price is lower than the KeyWiz, otherwise you could just use a KeyWiz and not utilize some of the features.

EEPROM is an advantage, but not in the ways most people think it is.  If you hot-swap controls, SDRAM encoders will revert to default settings.  In the case of the KeyWiz, this is the MAME-compatible keyset, and in MAME you can reassign keys to match ANY default keyset.  So where this would really come into play would be if you principally used the encoder with PC games or older Emu's that didn't allow reassignment of keycodes AND you wanted to hot-swap the encoder.   In this case, the KeyWiz will require you to activate it's software either from a desktop shortcut or a batch file prior to loading the game, and an EEPROM-based encoder will not require this.  But I think that is a small minority of the users here.

To make this short and sweet:  For the same price point, the KeyWiz ECO is basically the same unit as the KeyWiz Max (with the switchable pass-thru and screw terminals removed), and the KB16 is - for all practical purposes - very similar to a 16-input programmable keyboard hack.
mattp:

--- Quote from: markrvp on June 02, 2005, 04:17:41 am ---
--- Quote from: mattp on June 02, 2005, 03:09:03 am ---it's not plug and play

--- End quote ---

I think you mean it's not hot-swappable.  I have yet to see a modern encoder that is not Plug & Play (meaning the computer recognizes it as a keyboard without the need for additional drivers).



And while it's true that the very least expensive KeyWiz Eco requires soldering, you can see from the picture below that there is a version for $3 more that uses an IDE cable to connect to the inputs.  It is my understanding that that is how your board also works, except that your board only supports 16 inputs as compared to the 32 inputs supported by the Keywiz. 

Therein is the great Equalizer.   When I'm playing my arcade machine with a fellow gamer, I am not using the keyboard, I am not trying to figure out why the encoder doesn't work by looking at the LED, and I am not admiring the EEprom memory chip.  What I am using is more than 16 inputs during a 2 player game of Mortal Kombat.

I don't have a problem with your product and I am happy you are so proud of it.  What I do have a problem with is you badmouthing established products which do a good job, at the same time trying to tell new users on this forum that your product is exactly what they need.  A quick glance at the project pages shows that 90% of the projects built here would have non-working controls if powered by a TOKN KB16.

I haven't seen anyone attack your products here without first being provoked by one of your BS statements.  Knock it off.

--- End quote ---
Mark
The previous quote was simple and fair reply to Tiger-Heli's statement.
He emphasized ECOs strong points by pointing out what the TOKN KB16 did not have.
More inputs and a program to hot swap keysets, all great features, no argument there.
The reply basically did the same, ie pointed out things that ECO lacked that would be a weighing
point when evaluating your cost and feature set.
No one is trying to piss you off here, nor are any attacks being made.
I'm simply balancing some of these quotes that have been posted so that everyone has a clear view of what's going on.
The hot plug statement refers to the fact that ECOs need run a program every time you replug the encoder
which is a very valid point if you are using a PS2 keyboard. This is where the functionality of NVM comes
to play. If you can not see the value in that, then I can not help you. Did you buy a USB keyboard or are you
unplugging and replugging your PS2 keyboard? If so, how much did you pay for it?
Matt
mattp:

--- Quote from: Tiger-Heli on June 02, 2005, 06:35:27 am ---
--- Quote from: mattp on June 01, 2005, 10:40:06 pm ---All,
The TOKN KB16 is not implemented in what would be called a traditional keyboard matrix.
There is no row and column scan or search and there are also no ghosting issues. No diodes are needed nor used.
Rather it is a two ground multiplex with high speed interleaved byte latching on a single microcontroller port.
Very effective and very fast for getting port status to the microcontroller and keycodes to your game session.
These are details that the user need not worry about. Its just an implementation detail that is unique to
the TOKN KB16 encoder. Hopefully someone will do some benchmark tests in the near future. Now that would
be interesting. Hey Mr. Kevin Steele, do you own a square wave generator that can simulate some high speed
button mashing?
Cheers,
Matt

--- End quote ---
Thanks for the clarification.  Is it safe to assume that the KB32 uses a 4-ground multiplex?

--- End quote ---
So we're moving on now and starting a KeyWiz Max vs TOKN KB32 Texas death match?
Can the crowd handle it?

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