Main > Everything Else
Random number generator - is it even possible? (was: God, Aliens, and Chaos ...)
jbox:
--- Quote from: screaming on April 13, 2005, 09:37:44 pm --- Yeah, I'd just like to point out that in that sea of tangents I called a post, my point wasn't actually a theological one. It was mathematical, biological, and a technical question.
If we as humans are not random, can we in fact, create something that is?
--- End quote ---
Perhaps it would be a good idea then to edit the title of this topic to clear that up, since you summed it up much quicker just then. Is the universe just a giant machine ticking away, or not? ???
Quantum mechanics suggests that not everything is deterministic. Radiation is a classic example of something which we know averages out over the long term, but in the short term is difficult to predict. :)
And I don't think we have anywhere near a complete understanding of time at all. :-\
screaming:
I'm not so sure even with 2000 years of developing computers under our belt that we can actually create anything random. We'll get better at it and we'll come even closer to it than we can now, but will it ever truely be random?
--- Quote from: jbox on April 14, 2005, 12:33:14 am ---Is the universe just a giant machine ticking away, or not? ???
--- End quote ---
I dunno.. Some might go so far as say that the answer to that question would dictate the answer to "Is there a God?"
--- Quote from: jbox on April 14, 2005, 12:33:14 am ---Quantum mechanics suggests that not everything is deterministic. Radiation is a classic example of something which we know averages out over the long term, but in the short term is difficult to predict. :)
--- End quote ---
What about quantum paralellism, superpositions and the whole theory of entanglement? Quantum computing is all based on letting us predict quantum mechanics.
--- Quote from: jbox on April 14, 2005, 12:33:14 am ---And I don't think we have anywhere near a complete understanding of time at all. :-\
--- End quote ---
No we don't :( and we have a much less understanding of the Chaos Theory and all that it implicates.
Thanks for the tip! I changed to title... after I figured out how :)
-sab
JCL:
I did a long technical post and IE ate it. >:(
The short answer is that no computer (as defined as an algorithmic machine) can generate random numbers. Computers are deterministic. Random Number generator create pseudo random sequences that are perfectly deterministic. It doesn't matter how fast it is, it just isn't random and can't generate random data.
But if we want real randomness, we can get it from some natural processes.
Thermal noise in a resistor is random. You could measure it to get random sequences.
Decay of radioactive elements is a random process. You can get real random sequences from it.
Now the real questions are "Do people have free will?" or "Are people deterministic machines?" There's a long essay tying together Free Will, Chaos Theory and Quantum Mechanics that I've always wanted to write (but won't now).
But I'll try to give the gist of it.
Stingray:
--- Quote from: screaming on April 13, 2005, 03:24:01 pm ---
--- Quote from: Stingray on April 13, 2005, 03:04:17 pm ---I'm not sure why I did this.
--- End quote ---
Chaos theory. Something knew you were going to. ;)
-sab
--- End quote ---
Far out.
-S
FractalWalk:
Can anything not random create randomness?
Chaos Theory does not preclude randomness, though ordered disorder is a common trait of many complex systems (see avatar for metaphorical reference).
However, IMO, this relates more to closed systems & Godel's theorem. Can any system define itself? Is there such a thing as meta-randomness? Does that beg the question of God? If we are all fractal structures how is the human aspect of self-similarity measured?
These questions all seem to go down better with a gin & tonic.