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Schiavo rumblings
saint:
--- Quote from: Dartful Dodger on March 22, 2005, 08:55:08 pm ---Her husband says one thing her family says another.
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Then trust the husband. That's marriage.
--- Quote ---She didn't have a living will, her family couldn't agree, so the state had to decide.
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The state decided that the wishes of the parent outweighed the sanctity of marriage. That makes me really uneasy.
And yes, before anyone pipes in on his girlfriend -- the fact that after time has passed with no recovery he decided to go on with his life doesn't mean he didn't and doesn't love his wife or isn't qualified to speak for her wishes. After a reasonable mourning period I would want my spouse to go on with her life as well, and would not feel betrayed by such.
--- Quote ---Since letting her live wasn't hurting anyone, I don't understand why people are trying so hard to convince everyone that killing her is the best option.
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Because it was her wish? Perhaps she felt that such an existance would be harmful to her family - 15 years this has occupied her family's life. Because the thought of such an existance horrified her? Because she didn't want something like this to drain her family of their lives and resources? I dunno what her reasoning may have been, but if it was her wish it should be honored.
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--- Quote from: saint on March 22, 2005, 08:33:33 pm ---What if she's not totally brain dead and in a living hell?
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What if she's 7 days away from waking up and making a complete recovery, but instead she starves to death in 6?
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Then it's sad, but it's still her wish. And specifically, in this case, looking at the cat scan it appears a good chunk of her brain is just gone. There's no complete recovery happening here. We're not talking coma here with an intact brain, we're talking severe brain damage. According to this article, there's severe damage to her cerebral cortex - the part of the brain that makes you "you." -- Her lower brain stem is intact, which is keeping her body going, but she's not likely to be there anymore. Cases of people who have recovered from brain damage are different from this situation, among other reasons because hers was due to lack of oxygen as compared to being from trauma (again from this article). In oxygen damage, brain cells just die and don't regrow. In trauma, some brain cells die, but also networks between brain cells die and those can be regrown sometimes. ''After 15 years, if neurological recovery has not occurred, it is not going to occur,'' said Dr. Michael A. Williams, a Johns Hopkins neurologist. ``If she hasn't recovered by now she's not going to recover.''
--- saint
saint:
--- Quote from: DrewKaree on March 22, 2005, 08:58:04 pm ---Mr Schiavo didn't recollect Terri's wishes to not live her life in this state until several years later, and specifically, didn't recall them until after the malpractice settlement.
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Now that's the first thing someone's said that would give me pause. Do you have a reference? I have not seen that.
--- Quote ---got to this state through what he claimed, or if foul play were involved. This isn't just a case of family and friends who believe this might be the case, there have been doctors who have examined her and do not believe her symptoms and injuries to be consistent with the story Schiavo tells.
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I hadn't seen any info about doctors believing this either, and would be interested in seeing them. I did read this page which brought up the questions, but I'd sure like to see something more "newsworthy" on it such as police reports, court reports, or doctor reports.
--- Quote ---Since he has guardianship of her, he has also chosen to cremate the body, so any possibility of finding these things out go right in the ashcan as well.
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Meh - here's one point where I do think the wishes of the family or court are reasonable even if contrary to the husband's wishes. The body can certainly be cremated after an autopsy.
--- Quote ---It's fine to say my spouse speaks for me and I trust her to make those decisions for me should the need arise, but the possibility that someone may have that decision made for them by someone who doesn't share you and your spouse's views towards each other not only exists, but is a real enough possibility that the law should be clear in cases such as those.
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See, here's where my layman non-lawyer bias shows, but I thought that pretty much *was* the law --- that the spouse had the legal right to make those decisions. IANAL .... no hyphen either!
--- Quote ---I don't trust her husband. Enough exists for me to doubt his motives. At the very least, the judge should have reserved judgement long enough to mandate tests as to whether the man has ulterior motives, since his wife can't speak for herself now. Enough has been brought up in this case for me to question his more-than-peculiar "timing" of things throughout this case, and his actions while still married to his wife.
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One thing to bear in mind however is that this isn't a new case - this is a 15 year old situation, and at least a 7(?) year old case as far as the courts are concerned. Wasn't one of the judge's perspectives that there wasn't anything being brought up that hadn't already been investigated and determined before?
I guess I need to see more of what the allegations about her husband are to come to negative conclusion about him -- I'm looking, but so far what I've seen hasn't really told me much about him to draw a conclusion one way or another. If he was abusing her, and that's verified and not hearsay, then all bets are off on his speaking for his wife. If she was bruised, and talking about divorce, as this page says, then no, I don't think his word should be trusted or taken. However, I would like to see it from something more official than that page before I believe it. Even the page itself brings up the strong emotions in the case that must be considered when weighing what you hear. The page mentions several fractures found later in her body, but no sign of trauma when she was admitted to the hospital. Either they were old and healed, or inflicted during therapy. There are apparently no police reports of abuse in the marriage(?)... The page goes on, and what it claims is pretty damning for the husband, but the page gives no references to where they came up with their details.
If he is indeed a snake, then let her parents care for her and make those decisions - in that case, they would indeed then be the most qualified. However, my position on spousal rights to speak for a spouse don't change, even if we conclude they don't apply in this case.
--- saint
Chris:
--- Quote from: saint on March 22, 2005, 09:17:07 pm ---And specifically, in this case, looking at the cat scan it appears a good chunk of her brain is just gone. There's no complete recovery happening here. We're not talking coma here with an intact brain, we're talking severe brain damage.
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Was that her scan? I thought it was a composite of the brains of all the politicians involved.
Crazy Cooter:
--- Quote from: Dartful Dodger on March 22, 2005, 08:36:43 pm ---Cooter, did anyone in your family hire a lawyer to stop the tube being pulled?
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No, luckily he made his wishes known after the first (mild) stroke.
--- Quote from: Dartful Dodger on March 22, 2005, 08:36:43 pm ---This isn
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Zero_Hour:
--- Quote from: DrewKaree on March 22, 2005, 08:58:04 pm ---
He hadn't received offers of money to walk away from her until just recently. He'd look like a lowlife crook if he took it now, and he would have to relinquish guardianship of her, opening up the possibility of tests to try to determine if she got to this state through what he claimed, or if foul play were involved. This isn't just a case of family and friends who believe this might be the case, there have been doctors who have examined her and do not believe her symptoms and injuries to be consistent with the story Schiavo tells.
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Drew, can you link to those Doctors exams?
The link I pointed to was written by a Doctor / Professor of law who had access to all Medical & Legal records, and there was no mention of this in them. Also if I recall correctly, the abuse angle was already played out in court and amounted to nothing.
In reading the whole report (yes I actually did) there seemed to be more than a few occasions where both sides altered their path - given the length of time involved, none of it seemed especially strange or underhanded to me.
And saint, I'm with you my marriage is among other things, a legal contract - My wife supercedes everyone else as far as I'm concerned.
Brain tissue does not regenerate. Her cerebral cortex has been replaced by spinal fluid. Everything I've read on the subject indicates that is well beyond the point of no return.
This case has gone through every avenue available, and then had a few avenues built especially for it. The end result comes out the same. I believe that our Congress has inserted itself where it doesn't belong in this case, and ultimately, I suspect the courts will agree.