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Keyboard Encoder, I-Pac, KB16, other?
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RandyT:

--- Quote from: mattp on April 07, 2005, 02:03:36 pm ---Make sure you realize that programming a codeset from the PC on the fly is largely marketed as a feature in an attempt to cover up the fact that some encoders DO NOT have
EEPROM for persistent storage of your settings. Read the fine print.

--- End quote ---

This is like stating that a blinking LED is largely marketed as a feature in an attempt to cover up the fact that some encoders don't have a shift function.....  :)


--- Quote ---This means you have to reload everytime you unplug your encoder or restart the PC
which is very undesirable for desktop consoles.

--- End quote ---

[sarcasm]
Wow, that really sucks.  You mean I might have to click on an icon and wait a few seconds when I plug in my stand-alone CP?  Or make a batch file for my front-end software to do it automatically?
[/sarcasm]


--- Quote ---The TOKN KB16 is designed as a cost reduction for commerical standup arcade,
typically 1P 2P alternating w/up to 8 gameplay and 4 control buttons
or 2P simultaneous with 2 gameplay buttons each and 4 control.

--- End quote ---

Sounds a little limiting.  No other ways to keep costs down other than using a chip with a small number of inputs?


--- Quote ---TOKN KB16 also shines in the area of desktop consoles because you can connect many together with DIN cables. 8 or more! While connected in series, each player can still change their assignments! Something that you definitely can't manage with a PC shazzapp.

--- End quote ---

Please elaborate on the effects this has on performance. 

In the case of just 4 encoders chained together, when a player on that 4th encoder presses a button, it's data has to be inserted into the buffer of the 3rd encoder, and when it's time comes to be transmitted, it still doesn't go to the PC, rather into the buffer of the second enocder. From there it would go to the buffer of the first encoder, before finally being sent to the PC. 

I couldn't begin to imagine the latency issues that would come about with "8 or more" of your units chained together, so maybe I'm missing something that you could help explain.

BTW, I'm very interested in the "PC shazzapp", please tell me more :)


--- Quote ---Don't let the eBay low prices fool you. Its a promotional campaign. If you get one cheap, then congrats, you've waited patiently. If you don't like waiting you can get them at tokn.net for about 25 a pop plus shipping. The lowest on the web for true passthru w/ EEPROM. Check em out....

--- End quote ---

(Hmmm...Ebay.   I should really start listing there :) )

According to your website, they are "about" $28.00 plus shipping.  Has there been a recent price reduction, or is that some of the "fine print" you mentioned in your post? 

BTW, if the unit was "designed as a cost reduction for commerical standup arcade, typically 1P 2P alternating w/up to 8 gameplay and 4 control buttons or 2P simultaneous with 2 gameplay buttons each and 4 control.", why did you find it important to give up 2 of your inputs to a keyboard passthrough?  I've seen inside quite a number of commercial arcade cabinets and haven't seen a keyboard yet :) .


You might also want to make your affiliation with the product clear when posting here so other members don't take your marketing speech as another user's honest opinion.  But to be fair, the low post count probably already tipped them off...

RandyT

mattp:
Latency Question: If you can sense the .5msec it takes to transmit a keycode byte from encoder to encoder then you must really get tired during the 20msec switch debounce period.

Pretty blinking lights: Everybody wants one.

Series connected desktop consoles: Are you planning on running a 100 wires from player to player? How about the novel idea of no bottleneck passthrough via DIN cables?
DIN cabling makes for very clean wiring, especially with cocktail setups.

EEPROM scenario: PCs keyboard power glitches enough reset the encoder but not the PC.
Without EEPROM on the encoder, your only out is to pull the power on the PC and run a batch, to coin a phrase. Every good embedded platform deserves a well planned fault recovery method.

Last but not least. No soldering. Complete with connectors.
Simple valid points, all in fun.
Cheers.
CheffoJeffo:
Let me get this straight ...

The TOKN16 is a no-solder option with a pass-through that supports 16 inputs per board at a price of $28, $50 for two (e.g. 32 inputs) and $100 for 4 (e.g. 64 inputs).

For more than 16 inputs (gonna be tough for two players and admin buttons), the cost is going to be $50 against $23 for the KeyWiz (no solder) or $35 for the KeyWizPro or $39 for an iPac2.

 [NOTE: Forgive me if I get my KeyWiz facts wrong ... I have not, as yet, used one in a project]

I am not trying to be a smart-ass (there has been enough of that in this thread already) ... just trying to understand the advantages ... and it appears that price point is not one ... unless you have a small CP or get a great deal on eBay ...

Cheers,

JAKD







RandyT:

--- Quote from: mattp on April 07, 2005, 08:43:31 pm ---Latency Question: If you can sense the .5msec it takes to transmit a keycode byte from encoder to encoder then you must really get tired during the 20msec switch debounce period.

--- End quote ---

Sorry, but you will be having a difficult time convincing me that there would only be a 2ms latency for 4 encoders strung together via the PS/2 port.  I'm not talking about the time it takes for the byte to leave buffer A and enter buffer B, I'm talking about the time it takes from the moment the input is activated on Encoder 4 to the moment it leaves Encoder 1 for the PC.  And after you calculate that, we can talk about the 8+ encoder scenario.

And a 20ms debounce???   If every button is de-bounced for 20ms, that means that when playing a game with a 60hz refresh, your actions will be 1-frame behind before any other latency issues even start to be considered.  And yes, this really can (and does) matter.


--- Quote ---Pretty blinking lights: Everybody wants one.

--- End quote ---

They aren't pretty if you can't see them from outside the box ;)


--- Quote ---Series connected desktop consoles: Are you planning on running a 100 wires from player to player? How about the novel idea of no bottleneck passthrough via DIN cables?
DIN cabling makes for very clean wiring, especially with cocktail setups.

--- End quote ---

How about USB gamepad based encoder consoles and a centralized hub?  This is a real "no bottleneck" scenario, which could give the status of every one of the inputs, every 10ms, which is half the time of your "debounce" period.


--- Quote ---EEPROM scenario: PCs keyboard power glitches enough reset the encoder but not the PC.
Without EEPROM on the encoder, your only out is to pull the power on the PC and run a batch, to coin a phrase. Every good embedded platform deserves a well planned fault recovery method

--- End quote ---

I've never seen a power glitch that selectively targetted just the keyboard port.  Anything attached to the PS/2 port is getting it's power from the same source as the RAM, CPU and all the other support electronics.  Is there some reason the keyboard encoder is more susceptible than these other just as, if not more, important devices?   If such an unlikely thing occured, it would just mean clicking an icon again.  No powering down the PC.


--- Quote ---Last but not least. No soldering. Complete with connectors.

--- End quote ---

I think you mean a "header", and that is a good thing for folks that don't like soldering irons....that's why other offerings use them as well :).


RandyT
elvis:

--- Quote from: RandyT on April 07, 2005, 06:14:02 pm ---According to your website, they are "about" $28.00 plus shipping.  Has there been a recent price reduction, or is that some of the "fine print" you mentioned in your post? 
--- End quote ---

That caught my attention too.  $28 with fewer inputs than a $19 KeyWiz Eco.  Why would you even bother?
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