Beavis and Butthead?

[ChadTower]

So what do you 'Build your own arcade controls' for?

I restore old arcade machines.  I have an Asteroids Deluxe, a Tank II, and two pinball machines I'm working on at the moment. 

[Xiaou2]

  I in fact own:
 
 Out Run, Turbo, Ice cold beer, TX-1, Black Knight 2000 (pin),
Indiana Jones (pin), Killer Instinct pcb & HD... and tons of parts ready for my soon to be built mame machine.

  IMOP, theres nothing wrong with mame.   Playing mames games is like playing a show you taped on the vcr 20 yrs ago (if that were possible).   Companies make litterally no money with these games anymore. .. besides a few crap quality reprograms.   Many of the games on mame are from dead companies.   

 While mame is about saving the real pcbs... it also doubles as a museam.   A way to save history and to let all experience it.  Not just the for the  RICH!   

 Just because you can afford to buy real games, dosnt give you the right to bash mame.   In fact, if it wernt for mame... your job of repairing games might be much harder to impossible.  As roms for certain games are very hard to aquire.  Some may be lost forever.

 This Scott guy (has atari protos)  IMOP, is just a greedy and  selfish.

 I believe he is making an atari museam... to make money off of his atari closeout purchases.    However.. not everyone can afford to fly to CA to see and play the stuff.
 
 History shouldnt be so locked up like that.

  I wonder what you think about a guy like Owen Rubin, who CREATED ATARI GAMES LIKE MAJOR HAVOC AND ENCOURAGES
people to play them using mame?!?!?

 Games were created for the sole purpose of being played!  Made by the spirit of joy and love.  Made by people who love games, and want to share that with the world.   

 While games are made to make money.. that dosnt mean that is the sole reason for them nor the is the creators true intent.
 
  Im sure that the people who put blood sweat and tears into the Beavis and Butthead game are pissed - not only because it didnt get unleashed in the past... but that its being held captive by a selfish
collector.

 I myself have a rare TX-1 game.  In the near future, after I get it running, I will send the rare boards to be dumped in mame... Because, Im not selfish.

 Mame isnt about free games.  Its about reliving our pasts.  About exploration of great creative artworks. About showing people the very roots of gaming.  Preserving history.  And so much more.

 I think you need to rethink about, what it is all about.

   
   
 

[paigeoliver]

I wouldn't even RISK those boards in the mail. Buy an EPROM programmer and dump it yourself, the old boards like that are simple to dump.

But don't WAIT to get your boards running, dump it RIGHT NOW. It would be a shame if your roms were good NOW, but one of them magically gets a bad bit or two between now and whenever you get it running.

[Xiaou2]

  Well, I wish I didnt have to send them out... but I do not trust my ability to try to dump them.   Id better leave it to the pro.

  Actually, the roms are not the main thing that needs dumping either.  Its the proms.. and theres Tons of them, and they are all soldiered to the board(S)   : (   (and I have no clue which ones either!)

  If anyone in or near Upstate Ny (rochester)  would like to come up here to do it (and fix the TX-1  (some wires are popped out of the main harness, and i have no clue where they go ) ... id be a very happy guy.  Id even pay them...

 

[paigeoliver]

Oh, OK, I didn't know about all the soldered PROMS. Makes sense now.

[ChadTower]

Playing mames games is like playing a show you taped on the vcr 20 yrs ago (if that were possible).

Bad simile.  Unless you dumped the ROM yourself, it's actually like having someone who DID make that tape make you a copy of their tape, and then making 50,000 more copies and giving those out to anyone who wants one. 

Companies make litterally no money with these games anymore. .. besides a few crap quality reprograms.   Many of the games on mame are from dead companies.   

That's a rationalization, not a justification.  It doesn't matter if they make money from it.  They own it, you do not own it, therefore it is theirs and not yours.  Even if the company is dead someone owns the IP rights and that person is not you.

A way to save history and to let all experience it.  Not just the for the  RICH!   

The law allows for this.  You are allowed to download a ROM and play it for 24 hours for evaluation purposes.  After this point you are supposed to delete it because you do not own it.  People don't go to a museum and spend hundreds of hours looking at a painting.  They go, they look, and they leave.  Same concept here.

Just because you can afford to buy real games, dosnt give you the right to bash mame.   In fact, if it wernt for mame... your job of repairing games might be much harder to impossible.  As roms for certain games are very hard to aquire.  Some may be lost forever.

I have the right to express my opinion just as you do.  I also have the right of the law being behind my opinion.

This Scott guy (has atari protos)  IMOP, is just a greedy and  selfish.

Why, because he spent money and resources to acquire something and doesn't feel the need to give it to you for free?  You are the selfish one, not him.  He did the work and acquired the items.  You're just complaining that he won't share with you and you haven't contributed a thing.

I believe he is making an atari museam... to make money off of his atari closeout purchases.    However.. not everyone can afford to fly to CA to see and play the stuff.

This could well be the case. 

 History shouldnt be so locked up like that.

So what are you going to do to change it?  Continue to complain that you cannot get the games for free without any work or contribution?  Or are you going to do something to actually contribute in some way so that you deserve what you want?

  I wonder what you think about a guy like Owen Rubin, who CREATED ATARI GAMES LIKE MAJOR HAVOC AND ENCOURAGES
people to play them using mame?!?!?

His opinion is that of a creator and not of an owner.  He doesn't own those games.  Sure he wants people to play them!  They're his art and like any artist he wants people to experience his art.  His desires don't change the reality that he was paid to create those games and he does not own them. 

Games were created for the sole purpose of being played!  Made by the spirit of joy and love.  Made by people who love games, and want to share that with the world.   

Bullsh|t.  They were created by people who wanted to be paid for their work, for people who wanted to sell that work.  They are made for commerce and revenue.  If there was no money in games there would be almost no games. 

While games are made to make money.. that dosnt mean that is the sole reason for them nor the is the creators true intent.

Spend 5 years getting a CMPSCI degree, get a job working on games for a major corporation, and then try and say that without laughing.
 

Mame isnt about free games.  Its about reliving our pasts.  About exploration of great creative artworks. About showing people the very roots of gaming.  Preserving history.  And so much more.

No.  That's what it is about for you.  You didn't have to do anything to get MAME.  You didn't have to spend years acquiring the skills, and probably years developing the application.  You didn't even have to spend any money to get it.  Of course for you it's about reliving your past, you didn't have to do or spend anything to accomplish that.

I think you need to rethink about, what it is all about.

I have spent many hours doing just that.  I am a professional software engineer.  I did the years in college to acquire the skills.  I have written games.  Hell, I even wrote them in the nice share the games spirit you described.  In the end, I was so put off by the attitudes of the people who wanted what I was creating that I chose not to continue creating.  The amount of personal sacrifice that goes into creating a good game, when you're not being paid, is tremendous.  Even something considered simple (which really is far from it) like a 2600 game takes hundreds of hours of design, coding, testing. 

I'll say it again:  my biggest problem is with the ridiculous sense of entitlement people seem to have to the product of others' incredibly hard and skilled work.  It's only so much worse that 90% of those complainers would never bother to pay or contribute in any way if called upon to do so.

[APFelon]

You are allowed to download a ROM and play it for 24 hours for evaluation purposes.

*KOFF* *KOFF*

Don't bet the farm on that one.
APf

[Xiaou2]

 "bad simile.  Unless you dumped the ROM yourself, it's actually like having someone who DID make that tape make you a copy of their tape, and then making 50,000 more copies and giving those out to anyone who wants one."

   Yeah , just like a Library.  Last time I knew, they didnt charge to read content.   Many even loan videos and music out.  Why?  Cause not everyone can afford them... and also, its to capture history and allow all to experience it equally and easily.

  "That's a rationalization, not a justification.  It doesn't matter if they make money from it.  They own it, you do not own it, therefore it is theirs and not yours.  Even if the company is dead someone owns the IP rights and that person is not you.
"

  You sound like a money hungry, blood sucking lawyer.   My guess is that you are David Folly of Ultracade.   

  Say, if 200 years passed, would it be ok for games whos creators and companies were dead -  to be distributed freely?   When  does something become historical?!    I say, something is basically history after 8yrs.   In todays standards, something is old in 8 months.

 Many Evil company heads let IP rights  fall into the black abyss of nowhereland.   Company owns it - but no company - so nobody owns it... yet nobody can own it, cause its locked under said non existing company.  In such a case... is it right to let such great creations stay locked up and litterally erased from history just cause nobody released them (forgot, died, didnt care...ect)?!

"The law allows for this.  You are allowed to download a ROM and play it for 24 hours for evaluation purposes.  After this point you are supposed to delete it because you do not own it.  People don't go to a museum and spend hundreds of hours looking at a painting.  They go, they look, and they leave.  Same concept here."

   That 24hr stuff is just ---smurf-poo---.    If you downloaded kid porn, then deleted it in 24hrs...  youd better bet youd be put under arrest in less than 24hrs if someone found out and reported you.    Its just a stupid rule that people made up to make you feel comfortable by breaking the rules.

  Museams treasures are not the same as games.  Games are meant to be played.. like movies are meant to be viewed for thier full durration.

 Most things in a museam are not touchable by humans because of thier rarity and fragility.   However, the future of museams will most likely be much different.   Holographic, (maybe even touchable) imagry in home via the internet.  Maybe even 3d plastic models popped right out of your 3d printer.   

 "You are the selfish one, not him.  He did the work and acquired the items.  You're just complaining that he won't share with you and you haven't contributed a thing."

  Actually, I bet as a group, we could have purchased the stuff and distributed it freely.   However, such things arnt always announced well enough and leaves little time to arrange.    People have offered large sums of money for dumps of the roms, however, he refuses.  Gives some phoney excuses IMOP.   

  Anyway, like I said, I aquired something rare with my own funds.. and will be giving it away for free for all to use.  Why?   Cause Im not a selfish money grubber.

"So what are you going to do to change it?  Continue to complain that you cannot get the games for free without any work or contribution?  Or are you going to do something to actually contribute in some way so that you deserve what you want?"

  Ive contributed in the past to mame.  The discs of tron artwork scan for instance.   But hey, your right... maybe we could petiton him and wave some funds to release the stuff.  However... people have tried to offer him cash in the past and he didnt bite.  So basically, yes ,its a rant.    Maybe enough rants would cause some guilt and lead to flexibility... but then again, maybe not.

"Bullsh|t.  They were created by people who wanted to be paid for their work, for people who wanted to sell that work.  They are made for commerce and revenue.  If there was no money in games there would be almost no games. "

  Only part true.    Creative and skilled people like Owen had some serious creative freedom.   Yes, there were limitations.. but hey,  many of these guys got to program what they wanted to ... thus made from their hearts.   Today, its not like this.. and it shows.   Same game over and over with different gfx.  No creativity, no originality.

 Now its ALL "JUST" about the investment and money.  Back then, yes, they wanted to make money too... but  making a fun, creative, original games was a high priority.
 
"Of course for you it's about reliving your past, you didn't have to do or spend anything to accomplish that"

  Just as I dont have to spend anything at the library.

 Of course, its only partially true.  I did have to purchase some nice hardware to run the things.  Many upgrades.. larger drives...ect.   Overall, helped fuel the technolgy drive and brought down costs.   Bought arcade parts - helped keep happ controls alive.   Bought a nice scanner - to scan in game artwork.  Bought a digital camera - to document and photo arcade realated stuff.

  But lets get to the real issue.

  You are pissed that your games didnt take off - and somehow think that because mame exists.. that is why people wont buy your games.   When in fact, thats way off base.    People may play mame here are there... but they also buy many new games and systems as well.  Maybe your games just lacked something special.

  Maybe you are folly, and trying to think that reselling old games at outrageous prices is just and right.   Thats like saying Im gona start selling genesis games at full price again!   Do you really think people will pay top dollar to play an older game?!   And commercially... do you think that many people are really gona drop tons of money on old games in an arcade or bar..ect?   Sorry, but its not going to happen.   Arcades are basically dead.  Majority of people would rather go home and play thier PS2's. for free.   The old farts rarely get out to play (no time and family commitments) , and even if did... wouldnt spend much in a classic.   The most I ever got in a namco arcade for a week of collection on MS Pacman and Galaga was like  8$ each... and that was a good busy week in a mall location.   (compared to the 200$+ tekken 3 collect - when it was hot.  Afterwords...it fell like a stone)

  Yeah, making games is no picnic.   Its hard work, and mostly not appreciated unless its completly brilliant beyond belief  -which is near impossible today.   Many fail at solo attempts... and many fail at team attempts.   Money is the only thing that can possibly save things... and even then,  it still dosnt work most of the time.
However.. with one big hit - can make you a billionaire litterally overnight.

  I personally feel the way you do, about movies and affordable software.  If its good, Ill watch them and buy em... to support them.   Not everyone does this.
Im also against recent game emulaiton... such as GBA.   Where a game is commercially available... 

 But to make a stink over a game that no longer is for sale nor has an owner that cares... come on!  let it be history.

  Im not adding further comments... as Ive stated my points.   My opinion is that the person here is the utracade guy.   As theres really no reason for anyone to object - unless theres the THOUGHT that money is being tooken from thier pockets.
 

[ChadTower]

Okay, honestly, I tried to read that, but half of it makes no sense, he keeps accusing me of being someone named Folly... dude, take a writing class.  I have no idea what you're saying.

[Dav]

Okay, honestly, I tried to read that, but half of it makes no sense, he keeps accusing me of being someone named Folly... dude, take a writing class.  I have no idea what you're saying.

I didn't read it either because I'm not interested.  But, he should have accused you of being a troll and left it at that.

[Shape D.]

   Yeah , just like a Library.  Last time I knew, they didnt charge to read content.   Many even loan videos and music out.  Why?  Cause not everyone can afford them... and also, its to capture history and allow all to experience it equally and easily.

but you cant photo-copy those books, or copy the cd's they lend you. It's illegal.

  You sound like a money hungry, blood sucking lawyer.   My guess is that you are David Folly of Ultracade.

try coming op with a realistic and understandable response if you want someone to take you seriously.

  Say, if 200 years passed, would it be ok for games whos creators and companies were dead -  to be distributed freely?   When  does something become historical?!    I say, something is basically history after 8yrs.   In todays standards, something is old in 8 months.

will you own this in 200 years, or 8 or even 8 months. until its abandonware its not legal.

   That 24hr stuff is just ---smurf-poo---.    If you downloaded kid porn, then deleted it in 24hrs...  youd better bet youd be put under arrest in less than 24hrs if someone found out and reported you.    Its just a stupid rule that people made up to make you feel comfortable by breaking the rules.

agreed

  Museams treasures are not the same as games.  Games are meant to be played.. like movies are meant to be viewed for thier full durration.

 Most things in a museam are not touchable by humans because of thier rarity and fragility.   However, the future of museams will most likely be much different.   Holographic, (maybe even touchable) imagry in home via the internet.  Maybe even 3d plastic models popped right out of your 3d printer.   

the reason you cant touch anything in the museum is because you don't own it. if you owned the museum or the dinasaur bones in the museum you could tell the guard "F off its my dinasaur".

  Actually, I bet as a group, we could have purchased the stuff and distributed it freely.   However, such things arnt always announced well enough and leaves little time to arrange.    People have offered large sums of money for dumps of the roms, however, he refuses.  Gives some phoney excuses IMOP.   

  Anyway, like I said, I aquired something rare with my own funds.. and will be giving it away for free for all to use.  Why?   Cause Im not a selfish money grubber.

what he does with his own possesions are his decision. if you want to share youre stuff good for you. but that doesn't obligate anyone else to do the same.

  Only part true.    Creative and skilled people like Owen had some serious creative freedom.   Yes, there were limitations.. but hey,  many of these guys got to program what they wanted to ... thus made from their hearts.   Today, its not like this.. and it shows.   Same game over and over with different gfx.  No creativity, no originality.

 Now its ALL "JUST" about the investment and money.  Back then, yes, they wanted to make money too... but  making a fun, creative, original games was a high priority.

Nobody is forced to work anywhere. if they wanted to leave because they felt their "artistic freedom" was being crushed they could. the people making thes games are still dooing it because they enjoy games.

  Just as I dont have to spend anything at the library.

 Of course, its only partially true.  I did have to purchase some nice hardware to run the things.  Many upgrades.. larger drives...ect.   Overall, helped fuel the technolgy drive and brought down costs.   Bought arcade parts - helped keep happ controls alive.   Bought a nice scanner - to scan in game artwork.  Bought a digital camera - to document and photo arcade realated stuff.

you did that because you wanted to and not because you had to, and it still does not entitle you to any games you do not own.

  But lets get to the real issue.

  You are pissed that your games didnt take off - and somehow think that because mame exists.. that is why people wont buy your games.   When in fact, thats way off base.    People may play mame here are there... but they also buy many new games and systems as well.  Maybe your games just lacked something special.

  Maybe you are folly, and trying to think that reselling old games at outrageous prices is just and right.   Thats like saying Im gona start selling genesis games at full price again!   Do you really think people will pay top dollar to play an older game?!   And commercially... do you think that many people are really gona drop tons of money on old games in an arcade or bar..ect?   Sorry, but its not going to happen.   Arcades are basically dead.  Majority of people would rather go home and play thier PS2's. for free.   The old farts rarely get out to play (no time and family commitments) , and even if did... wouldnt spend much in a classic.   The most I ever got in a namco arcade for a week of collection on MS Pacman and Galaga was like  8$ each... and that was a good busy week in a mall location.   (compared to the 200$+ tekken 3 collect - when it was hot.  Afterwords...it fell like a stone)

Once again insulting someone will not help you win an argument.

  Yeah, making games is no picnic.   Its hard work, and mostly not appreciated unless its completly brilliant beyond belief  -which is near impossible today.   Many fail at solo attempts... and many fail at team attempts.   Money is the only thing that can possibly save things... and even then,  it still dosnt work most of the time.
However.. with one big hit - can make you a billionaire litterally overnight.

  I personally feel the way you do, about movies and affordable software.  If its good, Ill watch them and buy em... to support them.   Not everyone does this.
Im also against recent game emulaiton... such as GBA.   Where a game is commercially available... 

 But to make a stink over a game that no longer is for sale nor has an owner that cares... come on!  let it be history.

  Im not adding further comments... as Ive stated my points.   My opinion is that the person here is the utracade guy.   As theres really no reason for anyone to object - unless theres the THOUGHT that money is being tooken from thier pockets.

you don't obvously feel the same way he does because you feel you can play the games and realistically unless you bought it you don't own it.

P.S. his name is Foley, not folly. if you are going to try badmouthing chad at least do it right.

[ChadTower]

Hey wait... I read Shape D's response... did that guy actually compare arcade ROMs to child porn?  No wonder he doesn't get it, if he thinks that is a worthwhile analogy.

[Shape D.]

Hey wait... I read Shape D's response.

His was kind of hard to read. the parts where he quoted you were in the same format as his response thus hard to read.

.. did that guy actually compare arcade ROMs to child porn?  No wonder he doesn't get it, if he thinks that is a worthwhile analogy.

yes, yes he did.

Taking roms that don't belong to you = copyright violation. aka stealing
Downlaoding child porn = youre a sick bastage that deserves everything you will get in prison.

[APFelon]

Oh, come on. You may believe he needs a writing class, but you guys need a comprehension workshop.

He did NOT directly compare ROMs to kiddie porn, and to say he did is either deliberately dishonest or we all don't share a common tongue.  He said that the 24-hour-rule Chad cited is utter BS (which it is) and said that whether you download ROMs or Kiddie porn and delete it within a 24 hour window, it is still illegal.

Which, on both accounts, is true.

How can you guys bicker when you don't even know what the other is saying? Yeesh.

APf

[link2005a]

Hey wait... I read Shape D's response... did that guy actually compare arcade ROMs to child porn?

[ChadTower]

Tower, I can understand your point of people who work hard being able to make money off their work. But that said, when something is no longer on the assembly line or the store shelf there should be a way for people to get their hands on it. And no it doesn't have to be for free either, but should be very reasonable.

There is a way, it's called buying the PCB on the secondary market.  That is the product, that is how it was intended to be used and sold.  It was never designed to be used as a ROM and it was never designed to be dumped.  When someone has gone so far as to desolder chips in order to dump them it's very clear that they are going beyond the intended use of the item.

Why should it be reasonable?  Tell me one real reason.  WANTING it to be reasonable is not a valid reason.  The secondary market (read:  the people who want it) are the ones who set the price.  Supply and demand sets the price.  Most of those PCBs ARE reasonable, too.  You can get most JAMMA PCBs for the cost of a used console game at Gamestop.

[tmasman]

I hate to say it, but I agree with ChadTower...
I mean... I play MAME games all the time, but I also know that it's not necessarily "right".

If you want to play a Playstation game, what would you do?  Buy a system & buy the game... If you want to play a Playstation game (regardless of how old it is...), you'd buy a compatible system that can play the game, then buy the game...

If you want to play an arcade game, regardless of how much you really, really want to play, you should buy a compatible system & buy the game (Supergun Setups don't cost much more than PS2s, & like ChadTower said, many games can be had for $20, more popular games are more expensive... Sound familiar?)...  They don't make some of the original PS1 games any more... Should they be free & distributed for use on another platform just because you want it?

I'm not judging anyone here, I'm just asking why does this discussion seem to come up so freaking often? You have no "Right" to play these games. You may want to play them, but that doesn't mean you have the "Right" to.  Sure it'd be nice if the companies that own the "Rights" would sell them, or reproduce them in a PC compatible form, but they don't (well... most of them don't).

If you're going to download them & play them, then do so... But don't try to justify it. Don't try to convince everyone that it's OK just so you can feel better about yourself.


Maybe we should have a MA meeting... (MAMEers Anonymous)

My name is Thomas, I'm a MAME adict.  I know it's wrong, but I just can't help myself.  I keep trying to justify my actions by telling people I really really want it, but it doesn't help... 

[Shape D.]

Oh, come on. You may believe he needs a writing class, but you guys need a comprehension workshop.

He did NOT directly compare ROMs to kiddie porn, and to say he did is either deliberately dishonest or we all don't share a common tongue.  He said that the 24-hour-rule Chad cited is utter BS (which it is) and said that whether you download ROMs or Kiddie porn and delete it within a 24 hour window, it is still illegal.

Which, on both accounts, is true.

How can you guys bicker when you don't even know what the other is saying? Yeesh.

APf

"The law allows for this.  You are allowed to download a ROM and play it for 24 hours for evaluation purposes.  After this point you are supposed to delete it because you do not own it.  People don't go to a museum and spend hundreds of hours looking at a painting.  They go, they look, and they leave.  Same concept here."
  That 24hr stuff is just ---smurf-poo---. If you downloaded kid porn, then deleted it in 24hrs... youd better bet youd be put under arrest in less than 24hrs if someone found out and reported you. Its just a stupid rule that people made up to make you feel comfortable by breaking the rules.

Call me crazy but that looks like a comparison to me. Stating that downloading Kiddie porn in response to downloading roms sounds like a simile to me.

simile

n : a figure of speech that expresses a resemblance between things of different kinds (usually formed with `like' or `as')

I compare it to mp3's, older ones not newer ones. If I want to make a CD of music from the 70's, sure me downloading them from a place like Napster isn't fair to the artist, but things have a way of working themselves out. Now I can download individual songs for $0.50 - $0.99 from places like realplayer, music match, I-tunes, etc. If Older games get to the point where I can download the rom of say Altered Beast for $0.75, then I would and wouldn't complain.

www.emusic.com  $9.99 monthy subscription 40 songs/ month thats 25 cents each. 100% legal.
But now a question, did you buy any roms off star roms? those are the legal way to obtain some of ataris stuff. otherwise unless they are abandonware its illegal. Yes I would agree that there should be a legal alternitive to getting roms. but until that happens anything you've got not purchased from star roms is illegal.

[MrTroy]

I'm not going to quote much of anyone cause I honestly don't agree with everything one person says. But I do feel very strongly about this discussion. First allow me to say this.

Owning something and hording it may be legal but that doesn't make it right. I can't remember which country, but they had huge sculptures of things in their country that they didn't agree with. So they began to destroy them. We're talking thousands of years old art work, destroyed. Other countries offered to pay and remove them to preserve this art. But that country said no. And destroyed all of them. Doesn't sound familar?

Here's something that happened many years ago. A company started selling used Nintendo games, called Funcoland. Nintendo tried to take them down, why? Saying "Why would people pay for the new games if they can continue to play the old ones?". The courts knew that was BS and threw the case out. I could be wrong about the case, but I'm pretty close.

I don't understand the concept of "Destroy it because you own it." Or "Lets everyone just forget about it cause we have something cooler out". Granted some companies re-release things in musuems and stuff like that. But I think this kinda stuff should be avaible. I'm not saying "Free Roms for everyone" I'm saying there should be a way to legally get this kinda stuff. There are some Games that I've played and I don't even know how the heck I'd get my hands on a true machine. Let alone have enough room to store all the games I wanna play.

It's about money. That's all it's about. Anyone who disagrees with me should really really think about why that is the case? They even say the arcade is dying to the console market. If it's dying, why is it such a big deal? Why not license out the rights to something that you're not making money on anyway? Hell, if they said "Ok only these games can be avaible, cause we plan on releasing the rest of these in muesums." Fine. But you can't say "Oh well let it be burried". I've seen tons of pictures, and heard tons of stories of machines becoming firewood. Or just left out in the rain cause it's not profitable. I don't understand where's the real lost. I mean if I'm wrong tell me I am.

Also. Explain to me why it's so hard to find old commercials from the 70s and 80s. I want to get those but I was foolish enough not to tape every single one I loved. Are they gone forever?

[ChadTower]

I'm saying there should be a way to legally get this kinda stuff. There are some Games that I've played and I don't even know how the heck I'd get my hands on a true machine. Let alone have enough room to store all the games I wanna play.

There IS a way to get them.  Buy the PCB.  Not many PCBs are worth any money.  You don't have to have the whole machine to have rights to the ROM.  If you own the PCB, even if that PCB is broken, you have a legal right to a backup copy and therefore a legal right to the ROM.  Your argument that there is no legal way for you to get the games is incorrect.

The rest of your post was the same "I am entitled to anything, anywhere, at any time because I want it" stuff I have been talking about.  You don't own a legal copy, you aren't entitled to an illegal copy.  Period.  Morality isn't relevant, especially when that morality is really disguised rationalization of theft.

The argument of "well, if it's not saved it will be destroyed" is invalid too.   They are NOT being destroyed, they are being dumped to ROM by people who own legal copies.  They are being saved.  There is no connection between these people saving them and you having a copy illegally.

[MrTroy]

I am entitled to anything, anywhere, at any time because I want it

Well nice way to make me sound like a jerk. I never said that at all.

[ChadTower]

I am entitled to anything, anywhere, at any time because I want it

Well nice way to make me sound like a jerk. I never said that at all.

Not you specifically but the message from others in this thread and other threads identical to it is basically that.  Your arguments are in that direction, just not as far as that statement.

[Xiaou2]

"Not many PCBs are worth any money"

 ---smurf-poo---.  Many are very expensive.  BUt also, maybe its cause you are rich and do not know what its like to earn less than 20k a year.

 Its also quite possible that many board will die from age.. and may be unrepairable.   Its possible that someone might buy most all boards in an attempt to stamp out all legal rights to old games,  - or a religious nut that thinks all games should be extinct.

  Owning the actual pcb and not the cab or other parts does not gaurentee that you have the right to a pc backup.   Theres NOTHING like that listed in the manual.   

 You are making up a law that simply does not exist... simular to that 24 hr crap. 

 You are also encouraging  people to dry up the pcb market - and people who want the entire cab will suffer as they will not be able to find the boards anymore.


 You argue this legal stuff because you think you stand to lose money - else you wouldnt be here with such intensity.   You are the Ultracade guy... admit it.

  Obviously, you dont really care that much if a game falls off the face of history.  You care more about money and earnings that art and creativity.   Amazing that you would forget that the very master creator made you, and everything arround you, without a single idea
of profiting.

[tbombaci]

Amazing that you would forget that the very master creator made you, and everything around you, without a single idea
of profiting.

Hang on there. That is most severely your opinion, not fact.

In a nutshell, these games are property of someone / some company. Many of us, including myself, have played these ROMS in Mame illegally. Will we go to jail? Probably not. However, it is illegal any way you look at it.

I think the point here is that most of the people in the Build your own hobby pretty much expect every ROM to every system plain and simple. They are certainly not entitled to anything unless they actually own the game (or PCB). It is unfortunate that the Mame project has pretty much enabled this mentality.

Some of the posts in this thread mention preserving history and even imply that they are indeed entitled to the ROM.  As an example, lets say I own three of the original General Lee's used in the TV show The Dukes of Hazard. They had about 6 of those cars during the duration of the show. According to some of the previous posts, I should let everyone drive my three '69 Chargers because they are a part of history that needs to be preserved or experienced by everyone. It is history after all.

For what it's worth, I have moved my focus to real machines. I am in the process of selling off my MAME machine. I have about 19 uprights and three cocktails at the moment. Oh, if anyone was curious, there is indeed a Pacman PCB inside the DomPAC next to the PC that is emulating it.

-tom

[Shape D.]

---smurf-poo---.  Many are very expensive.  BUt also, maybe its cause you are rich and do not know what its like to earn less than 20k a year.

he said most and for the most part he's right.

Its also quite possible that many board will die from age.. and may be unrepairable.   Its possible that someone might buy most all boards in an attempt to stamp out all legal rights to old games,  - or a religious nut that thinks all games should be extinct.

which is why mame was created to preserve the original game. the pcb can be repaired and the rom placed back on it.

  Owning the actual pcb and not the cab or other parts does not gaurentee that you have the right to a pc backup.   Theres NOTHING like that listed in the manual.   

 You are making up a law that simply does not exist... simular to that 24 hr crap.

That has nothing to do with the manual, Its stndard copyright laws and consumer protection. you are legally allowed to make ONE, and only one, back up of any media you own. however you are supposed to make the back up yourself, not download another copy off the internet.

You are also encouraging  people to dry up the pcb market - and people who want the entire cab will suffer as they will not be able to find the boards anymore.

first come first serve. thats the way the captolist market works.

You argue this legal stuff because you think you stand to lose money - else you wouldnt be here with such intensity.   You are the Ultracade guy... admit it.

Lame

  Obviously, you dont really care that much if a game falls off the face of history.  You care more about money and earnings that art and creativity.   Amazing that you would forget that the very master creator made you, and everything arround you, without a single idea of profiting.

What $ and what are you refering to? to reiterate chad is not david foley of ultracade. david foley is a tool. chad while mentaly unstable at times  is nowhere near as bad as david foley.

[ChadTower]

Okay, saying I'm David Foley is odd.  People here know me IRL. 

Accusing me of being David Foley demonstrates a lack of comprehension of the subject.  David Foley is attempting to make money off of the work of others, i.e. he is stealing.  That is exactly what I am speaking out against.  You do not have good critical thinking skills.

Trust me, I grew up DIRT poor.  I know what it's like to make under 20k.  I am not poor any longer because I understand the value of earning things and of respecting the work of others and have made a very lucrative career out of that respect.  Without that comprehension of the issues I'd be working at Walmart making less than 20k a year.

See how that works? 

Understand and respect issues like intellectual property ->  Good, lucrative career

Not respecting intellectual property et al  ->  working at Walmart

Everything is interconnected.  I assume you are young and simply haven't experienced enough to understand the importance of what we're saying.  Try having faith and accepting at least parts of it, we are now where you may be going.

[APFelon]

Call me crazy but that looks like a comparison to me. Stating that downloading Kiddie porn in response to downloading roms sounds like a simile to me.
simile

n : a figure of speech that expresses a resemblance between things of different kinds (usually formed with `like' or `as')

I won't call you crazy. But it isn't a simile. In fact, it wasn't even a figure of speech at all. He was comparing the LEGALITIES of ROM downloading and kiddie porn. He did NOT say "Downloading ROMs is like downloading kiddie porn".

Here is a simile in the proper context with definition..

A formal comparison using "as...so" or "like" to express resemblance.

"Even so, husbands should love their own wives as their own bodies..."
"O, my luve's like A Red, Red Rose"
"Your naive definition of the word simile in that patronizing tone irritates me like a hemorrhoid."

Three similes in a row for you to consider.

Which no way, shape or form resembles the original comparative comment. Keep in mind your original dictionary term, which says it includes "like" or "as".

He made NO direct link from ROMs to kiddie porn, no matter what that monitor in front of you is beaming into your eyeballs. He compared the legalities.

To suggest otherwise is nothing more than slander.

Like I said, you need a comprehension workshop.

[ChadTower]

Dude, it's not slander, it's libel.

[DarkKobold]

Dude, it's not slander, it's libel.  Slander is oral. 

[code]
li

[Xiaou2]

 "David Foley is attempting to make money off of the work of others, i.e. he is stealing."

  - Nope.  He is not stealing... he is aquiring licencing legally.  However... he was also trying to take mame down and end rom piracy much like your views.   However... his pricing scheme is ridiculs.   Theres no way that buisness will be viable in a coin op enviornement.. and its too costly for most typical people to justify.

 -  I think its you who lack comprehension.

 " I am not poor any longer because I understand the value of earning things and of respecting the work of others and have made a very lucrative career out of that respect.  Without that comprehension of the issues I'd be working at Walmart making less than 20k a year"

 - LOL !!!   Yeah sure... everyone who decides to do things 100% legal will always get great paying jobs... ummm... Yeah.... 
 
  - I know people who make good money - and yet, download movies  left and right.    I know people that do everything legal... and are still dirt poor.   

  - I know what you are trying to say - but,  you did not... and, its not even accurate.   That IF you do things correctly in life, you get a good reputation and that gets you better positions in life.  Again... only partially true... and dosnt always work out like that.  Theres many more factors to success than simply not downloading something you do not own!  lol
 
 - Downloading a game that one dosnt own that is over 10 yrs old and company is dead is not going to hurt a single person.  In fact... it might save a few lives.   People who have little money and no way to be entertained... will usually turn to bad activities.   Usually rioting... religious extremisim...vandalism...ect.   

  - Heres something for thought...

1) Laws are written by Men - Not god.
2) Laws are not always written propperly and with full undersatnding
3) Laws are sometimes made by corrupt people
4) Laws are not always just and fair
5) Laws are bent and broken by lawmakers
6) Laws are always changing
7) I doubt anyone knows all the laws.  Theres simply too many for anyone to hold in memmory.  Many are outdated and do not apply to
current society... but havnt been updated or removed.  (basically, people are always breaking them!)

 - I do not agree with people who pirate things like Movies and recent material... as that hurts the economy and the creators.   Downloading a 10yr old game that is not for sale will never hurt anyone.   

  "you are legally allowed to make ONE, and only one, back up of any media you own. however you are supposed to make the back up yourself, not download another copy off the internet."

  - More ---smurf-poo---.   Id love to see a link to this law and see how it matches the above quote.   It wont.   First off... dvd makers had popped encryption (but got hacked) so that nobody could make a copy... however... if that law was true, it would be illegal for them to sell a non copyable dvd.

  -  Theres also no rule about needing to dump your material yourself.
If I didnt have the equipment... Id need the services of another... be it an electronics shop,  a internet rom dumper guy..ect.   The problem is not where you got it - but can you proove that you own it.  If you are busted downloading a rom, and pull out your pcb or cabinet... I doubt you would be in any trouble.

 -  People are targeting people who 'share'.   But there isnt a no share law.. and somehow they get away with it.   Still, if the person sharing had every single pcb... I think they might get off the hook.   However, leaving the door open for others without proof of ownership is the kicker that could be trouble.   But, what about a person whos 10yr old cd got scratched and tossed it?  Shoudnt he be able to dl his songs back?  By the laws of honesty - he wouldnt be doing anything wrong - but by the laws of state... thats another story... which to me is wrong.

 - The child porn thing was basically saying that weather you break the laws by j-walking, or by rom downloading... its the same thing - "you broke the law". .. no matter if it was by 1 second, or 24hrs.     IE: Theres no "I can break the law for 'x'  amount of time"  Law!

 - These 'myths'   are people justification rules.   Kinda like religion.. where people choose to follow and obey the things they agree with ... and ignor the rest.       


 - And in closing... you people who thing you are so "Holier than Thou"... realize that you are in a good life position because you take advantage of others.   For instance...Poor underpaid workers slave to hand braid 'brats' dolls hair so that you can afford to buy them for your little girl.

 - We are all 'wrong'  for allowing this... but,  its legal.   Legal dosnt always mean right and 'god inspired'.

 - 90% of all the supposed rules that you are spreading are not even real.  They are again.. just justifications to make you look like
you are doing the right things. .. so you can feel better about yourselves.   When in reality - your just a hypocrite, or just plain arogant and ignorant.

 - Anytime I see someone spouting these so called rules... I know that its usually from someone who seeks attention.   Cause.. they want to be known as some sorta enforcer / know it all.   Its like a status thing to some people.   Pretty strange if you ask me.

[ChadTower]

The 24 hour rule does exist, it is based on the fair and limited use sections of standard copyright law.

Encrypted DVDs fall under the DMCA of 1998.  The DMCA states that it is illegal to circumvent security measures (such as encryption) for reasons that are not research or testing related.  Decrypting a DVD for your own copy is not testing or research. 

Removing soldered chips from a board is circumventing the original design for the same reason, and thus could also be argued as against the DMCA, though it is still legally under debate whether or not simply desoldering nonencrypted ROMs for dumping counts as true circumvention.

As for bringing god into this, whatever your god is, it is not relevant.

Downloading a game that one dosnt own that is over 10 yrs old and company is dead is not going to hurt a single person.  In fact... it might save a few lives.   People who have little money and no way to be entertained... will usually turn to bad activities.   Usually rioting... religious extremisim...vandalism...ect.   

Pure rationalization.  It CAN hurt people to steal a game that is over 10 years old and the company is dead.  Someone still owns that IP.  That person could start a new company and try to introduce new ways to make money off of that IP.  They would have that right, a right that MAME ROM distribution has diluted.  See the many all in one classic joystick to TV products for perfect examples of companies doing just that and making a lot of money doing it.  4 years ago everyone assumed Atari, Intellivision, etc were gone and no one was ever going to make money off of them again.  Now look at all of the products with that IP that are out there.

You can call me strange if you want.  What I find strange is how so many people are so used to rationalizing theft that they don't even know they do it anymore.

[tmasman]

" I am not poor any longer because I understand the value of earning things and of respecting the work of others and have made a very lucrative career out of that respect.  Without that comprehension of the issues I'd be working at Walmart making less than 20k a year"

 - LOL !!!   Yeah sure... everyone who decides to do things 100% legal will always get great paying jobs... ummm... Yeah.... 
 
  - I know people who make good money - and yet, download movies  left and right.    I know people that do everything legal... and are still dirt poor.   

  - I know what you are trying to say - but,  you did not... and, its not even accurate.   That IF you do things correctly in life, you get a good reputation and that gets you better positions in life.  Again... only partially true... and dosnt always work out like that.  Theres many more factors to success than simply not downloading something you do not own!  lol
 

I'm sorry sir, but I do believe you've twisted what ChadTower said here...

He didn't say "Do legal things & get a good job"...
I believe he was saying something a little more like:

If you're able to comprehend (understand) the value of earning things (paying for things), and respect people's rights (intelectual property, etc...), then you're probably a step ahead of the people who aren't smart enough to be employed by anywhere better than Wal-Mart stocking the shelves.

Not that there's anything wrong with that job, but there are people out there that don't have the comprehension skills to go furhter than that. It's an issue of understanding & comprehension, not putting anyone down for what they do.

Those who are able to comprehend more, will typically go further in life if they apply that comprehension.  It's not a "sure thing"... People aren't garanteed that being smart will take you places.  But how many incredibly smart people do you see sacking groceries, or digging ditches? How many dumb people do you see designing sky-skrapers, or performing surgery? Again, these are not difinitive examples... You guys keep nit-picking each little piece of information as if it were stated alone.  Try taking things in context. It might help you to comprehend the issues better.

Or maybe you've all gotten so aclaimated to stealing digital things, that you really don't think it's wrong.

Wow...

[ChadTower]

Or maybe you've all gotten so aclaimated to stealing digital things, that you really don't think it's wrong.

I've done a LOT of thinking about this lately.  I have kids that are about to become of an age where this could be an issue.  I consider it my job to keep them educated, ethical, and respectful in all matters.  I fear what I see in kids now in regard to total disrespect of not only IP but a lot of things.  They can do things now that we didn't have the technology to do.  I know kids who think making copies of commercial CDs and selling them at school is a proper thing to do.  They're so acclimated to rationalizing digital theft that they really don't understand why it is wrong... and the leap from downloading mp3 for your own use to using your high speed connection to download it for others and selling it to them is very, very small.  How about buying an LOTR DVD and then making copies for all your friends for a fee?  Seen that too.

I hear a lot of the "it doesn't really harm anyone" issue, but it does and the punishment can be severe... I have been trying to figure out the best way to keep my children ethical in these regards.  My best solution thus far is to be that way myself and set proper examples.  That's why I stashed my MAME dvds and all the ROMs for which I don't own a legal copy... 

[Shape D.]

  "you are legally allowed to make ONE, and only one, back up of any media you own. however you are supposed to make the back up yourself, not download another copy off the internet."

  - More ---smurf-poo---.   Id love to see a link to this law and see how it matches the above quote.   It wont.   First off... dvd makers had popped encryption (but got hacked) so that nobody could make a copy... however... if that law was true, it would be illegal for them to sell a non copyable dvd.

us  copyright office FAQ

Can I backup my computer software?
Yes, under certain conditions as provided by section 117 of the Copyright Act. Although the precise term used under section 117 is "archival" copy, not "backup" copy, these terms today are used interchangeably. This privilege extends only to computer programs and not to other types of works.

Under section 117, you or someone you authorize may make a copy of an original computer program if:

    * the new copy is being made for archival (i.e., backup) purposes only;
    * you are the legal owner of the copy; and
    * any copy made for archival purposes is either destroyed, or transferred with the original copy, once the original copy is sold, given away, or otherwise transferred.

You are not permitted under section 117 to make a backup copy of other material on a computer's hard drive, such as other copyrighted works that have been downloaded (e.g., music, films).
     It is also important to check the terms of sale or license agreement of the original copy of software in case any special conditions have been put in place by the copyright owner that might affect your ability or right under section 117 to make a backup copy.

For your reading pleasure, and education.

by the way I'm trying to find section 117 as it is directly written so you can see how it applies too all formats of digital media.

It is however still illegal to bypass copy protection, or to make a backup copy if the user agreement prohibits it.

P.S. sorry for feeding you "---smurf-poo---"

[MrTroy]

A really funny thing I've been thinking about, is the consideration of what is legal and what isn't. For example where I live. It's illegal to have sex in any position besides missionary on a Sunday. Is anyone going to enforce that law? Also the question is... who writes these laws. Who do the laws really benifit? Here's one thing, they're to protect the people who make the laws, not the people.

The law I above stated, why do you think that is even in the law books? Ok so now that we're still talking about the law. Some people say it's against the law to reverse engineer hardware and software to figure out how it works, for whatever reason. Other's say it's ok as long as you're using it for educational purposes. Ok. So let's take it into account "Educational and testing purposes" is fine.  That would thereby make Mame fine.  But why is it that Sony thought they were in the right to sue Bleem? Notice that they(Sony) lost(over and over again apperently till Bleem just ran out of money, but that's nice and legal to bully your competition out of the market). What about Nintendo trying to get these Famiclones off the market? Shouldn't they legally be able to sue the crap outta these companies till these things are off the market? And Nintendo would have a MUCH stronger case than Sony did.

The thing is. You have to PROVE that you're losing money off of something before you can rightfully sue. Don't get me wrong. I'm not here to bootleg as many games as possible. I'm building my machine so I can learn how to do it from scratch. I'm also buying the ROMS that I use(legally) because I can. In fact the whole reason I'm arguing is cause I wanna play that Beavis and Butthead game and I have absolutely no way to even see it.

That person could start a new company and try to introduce new ways to make money off of that IP

It's hard to figure that you can make money off of something pre-exsisting if no one has access to it. Alot of the games that I wish to own I don't think I can buy because the Ultracade dude owns the rights to them(I played them in a local Arcade that has an Ultracade Machine) and he doesn't use Mame.(?) But if I don't have access to them to even know what they are. How can they get my dollar?

And to finish off what you were saying, after giving it some more thought. Yeah you are right.
I want things that I would like to have, when I want them. That's why I buy them. I don't make less than 20k a year. And I think I'm entitled to purchase things I like. But I wouldn't purchase something one of a kind simply for the reason of keeping it out of the hands of others. That's just not me. I guess he's entitled to that too. I just think it sucks.

- This random babbling brought to you by MrTroy

[ChadTower]

You can sue anyone for any reason,  right, wrong or legality being irrelevant.  If you have no case you will lose but that does not prevent you from suing. 

PS - Nice one, Shape D.

[tbombaci]

But I wouldn't purchase something one of a kind simply for the reason of keeping it out of the hands of others. That's just not me. I guess he's entitled to that too. I just think it sucks.

Huh? He didn't purchase this stuff to keep it from others. Where the heck did that come from? He paid some serious cash for the Atari stuff. He also pays serious storage fees every month to boot. He brings out all of the prototypes every year to California Extreme. Play it there.

He has even started a website to showcase some of the Atari stuff he has purchased. There was such an overwhelming response, people actually pestered him into setting up a Paypal donation link to help him out on his costs (see RGVAC this past week).

-Tom

[Shape D.]

PS - Nice one, Shape D.

thanks.

And to note. I don't agree with all copyright laws. for example: why cant you use the backup instead of the original? The rule of making only one copy is silly as well. I don't keep original cds in my car anymore because my car was broken into and I lost $3,000 dollars worth of cds. now I buy a cd, make a copy for in my house and one for in my car, and store the original. I understand not giving out copys and not keeping copys of stuff you sell. But I think if you purchase something you have the right to enjoy it where you want to. 

now on the topic of making your own backup. This seems just as rediculous to me. a copy is a copy of the software or cd reguardless of where you get it. The fact that you copied it from your own unit shouldn't matter at all as long as you own the original copy of the item.

I do however agree that making roms availible in a digital format is a good idea. the companies profit, and consumers get a legal product at a fair price. however my feelings do not "entitle" me to anything. I want a million dollars, does that mean I can just go take it from a bank? no of course not.

Until they are legaly available I will stick with star roms and abandonware. And roms I own the pcb for.

And nobody should be required to share something they did on theyre own.  I saved up CHANGE for 13 months to buy myself a $1500custom bass guitar, and then assemble it myself. should I let you borrow it because its one of a kind, NO. its mine. If you came over to my house sure I might let you play it. but its mine. and nobody else has any right to use it.

[ChadTower]

And nobody should be required to share something they did on theyre own.  I saved up CHANGE for 13 months to buy myself a $1500custom bass guitar, and then assemble it myself. should I let you borrow it because its one of a kind, NO. its mine. If you came over to my house sure I might let you play it. but its mine. and nobody else has any right to use it.

That's IT!  The missing link to the Wendy's Chili story!  He built his custom bass, the strings were too sharp, his finger flew off and went into this woman's chili!

[Shape D.]

*Shape D waves hand missing one finger slowly infront of screen and says*
"this isn't the hand your looking for."











Jedi mind trick, works every time!