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New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
u_rebelscum:
--- Quote from: RandyT on March 02, 2005, 12:52:32 am ---Thanks for the heads up, but it was unnecessary :).
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Didn't think it was, but just in case. :)
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--- Quote ---I just have a misgiving about the possibility of stuff being lost in translation:
1) 49-way 8 pins -> USB analog ("raw", "Progressive", "linear", "exponential")
2) -> mame internal analog
3) -> gamedriver 49-way 8 pins.
editted: layout and numbering
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Actually, the hardware removes one level of translation.
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??? Which one? I don't see how that could be possible. If anything, I've left out translation steps ('cause usually those steps aren't used or are skipped).
Compare with the straight path the original controllers followed: 8 output pins on joystick -> 8 on the PCB. Zero translations, and processing was done by game's ROM.
Of course, normal analog joystick games don't do the processing in their ROMs; that's what your wiz49 does, so the stick can work on those games (& official mame). (Translation 1)
Now it's in "analog stick" format. Mame reads it and translates it to it's internal format. (Actually, mame reads, saves in directInput format in OS specific part, passes info to core applying mame's analog acceleration, and saves in core's different format.) (Translation 2)
For 49-way games, then the driver gets the mame core formated data, and translates it back to 8 bits that match the 8 pins on the joystick. IOW, it's translated to back to the original format, so the ROM can do the processing. (Translation 3)
I'm skipping some stuff like device driver acceleration, deadzone and other "cpoint" translations, and combining mame's acceleration into the second step when it could be seperate, all which would effect the final play. I know steps 2 & 3 (above) are mame's "fault", but they will effect how much I like your product. (You've tested this and probably adjusted for them, so probably okay, but...)
--- Quote ---But I think what you may be questioning is whether the Raw and Progressive output is the "correct" output for the software to translate from. The two 49-way datasets should pretty much cover the future possibilities, but interestingly enough, both of them are seen as three separate levels of force by the software. So Progressive mode really only helps on true analog applications and may also provide some "future-proofing" for revised translations.
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That's exactly what I'm wondering. Heck, it's because of normal analog controllers and normal analog games I'm wondering. Some joystick/gamepad drivers let the user adjust the analog curves, dead zone, ect, and almost always I don't like the defaults. Some drives let the user set different settings per game, and I have needed to do that. Other controllers I've tossed in the closet because I don't like the movement-to-output ratios and can't change them. At least you'll have two and a half ("raw", progressive, and 8-way) I can try.
I'm wondering how your "grid'ing" and "value'ing" feel to me. [shrug] I'm not singling your product out; it's basically the same question as all input products I buy.
--- Quote from: SirPoonga on March 02, 2005, 12:09:58 pm ---Actually, I have to look at the analog+ source or ask urebel on what he is doing with the 49way data. Is he converting the data to an analog signal and letting the driver convert it back or sending it directly to the driver.
If sending directly to the driver you couldn't do something like the Wiz49 two 49way modes.
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For the three games, analog+ sends the 8 pins pretty straight to the game. (They might be bitwise NOT'ed, depending on the game & happs vs williams controller.)
Other than the three games, analog+ has no extra support for 49-way joysticks that official mame doesn't have. (IOW, none except by remapping)
<off=chest>
Oh BTW, and just my opinion (you can ignore if you want, Randy ;) ), I don't like the term "raw" used as the name for one of the modes. "Raw" 49-way to me means 8 bits, one bit per output pin on the controller, matching exactly what the respective pin is outputing, four 4 bits per axis. Wiz49's "raw" mode sounds like SJC's "linear" mode, which is very different than the raw output of the 49-way stick (IOW it is processed data). And to me, that's not raw anymore. [shrug] Not that it really matters at all, and "What's in a name, a rose [blah][blah][blah]..", but everytime I see "raw" I think "data as if direct from stick" and then need to readjust to Randy's mode naming. Sorry, please ignore this paragraph, not important.
</off=chest feel=better>
SirPoonga:
--- Quote ---BTW, it would be great if Randy could make something like this, but I think it should be an addon rather than standard. I'm sure lots of people would rather keep it cheap and push the buttons themselves. If you look at all the complicated routes people will go to avoid spending $30-$40 for a good spinner, you'll see what I mean.
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Maybe it would be better to design it as an addon. I mentioned that it could be a keywiz replacement in a cabinet just because it has 23 extra inputs. That's more than enough to have a 49way and any extra buttons one would need.
But if it is aimed to be an add on all that isn;t used and maybe the resources could be used to implement a new feature?
Randy, it's not that we don;t like the product. I for one think it's one of the best things to come by. I don't think anyone is getting that point. Many of us are just wondering why you didn't go that extra step that could possibly be feasible. It's how products improve when customers ask about it. It's like when the keywiz came out all of us that wondered why there isn't keyboard led support...
sWampy:
--- Quote from: RandyT on March 02, 2005, 04:53:51 pm ---
--- Quote from: sWampy on March 02, 2005, 04:04:20 pm ---
Yes, plugging something in and needing no drivers is nice, but this isn't a jump drive, you will take from machine to machine, this is a controller you are going to put in an arcade cabinet once and leave there, loading a driver once is trivial.
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This is exactly the opposite from the sentiments I have been hearing. One of the major concerns people have had is whether they can take a control panel they build based around one of these interfaces to a friends house and plug it in and play without a lot of hassle. i.e. Thumbdrive like transportability.
And speaking of which, a client brought a thumbdrive into our offices a short time ago that worked great on his laptop and said it was supposed to be "plug and go". We spent half the day trying it on a half dozen systems, and couldn't get it to work.
Saying something and making it so are two different things and with USB, it's just not as simple as it sounds because of the number of variables involved. The examples you give on the behaviour of other devices fail to take into consideration the 12 people that worked for 3 months straight developing firmware and supporting software, or the potential market of millions for the device to pay for it.
So yes, lots of things would be nice. How many are willing to fund the development of them? Far less than wish to have a say in the products design, I'm sure.
RandyT
BTW, Thank you Flinkly for the words of support. I'm sure there are a lot of folks like you out there that feel the same way, but don't want to get involved in the "trial by fire" that all new developments go through on the board. I've been through a few of them and now that the scar tissue is starting to build up I can't feel it much any more :)
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Ok, Randy, I'll believe you, I bet as many people want to take their arcade cabinet control panel out, lug it across town and plug it into their friends cabinet and play sinistar, ranks right up there with the number of guys who carry a round a toilet seat cover in their billfold, or women that carry around P-Mate in their pruses so they can piss in a urinal if all the stalls are full, but it's your product.
http://www.p-mate.com/eng/intro.html
mahuti:
Whatever dude. There are lots of examples of people building hot-rod style control panels... rather than full-fledged arcade cabs. Those CPs ARE portable, and I can see the value that this product could hold for them. It's not unheard of for someone to take a CP to somene elses house...
sWampy:
--- Quote from: mahuti on March 02, 2005, 08:41:17 pm ---Whatever dude. There are lots of examples of people building hot-rod style control panels... rather than full-fledged arcade cabs. Those CPs ARE portable, and I can see the value that this product could hold for them. It's not unheard of for someone to take a CP to somene elses house...
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Yeah, I'm sure a few do, and a few guys wear their little brothers panties.