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New Product: GP-Wiz - 32-input Fast USB Controls Interface
Tiger-Heli:
This is just my take on the product, I did not contribute anything significant to it's development (other than mentioning something similar about a year ago and forgetting about it).
--- Quote from: Howard_Casto on February 08, 2005, 10:16:17 am ---The whole reason eveyone uses keyboard encoders is that not every emulator, pc game or application has gamepad support. Mind you this isn't as big of a problem as it used to be by any means, but still.
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My feeling is that while this is workable for a primary MAME interface, it works better for an add-on panel.
--- Quote ---Secondly, you are billing it as a modular solution. How exactly? It has 32 inputs, but only two axis... so unless you want to use some of the buttons as 2 player axis (which imho is very hacky and you shouldn't have to do), it can't even handle 2 players, despite the enormous amount of button inputs.
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Well, most mame games don't need an analog axis (there are exceptions). Here is how I see this working.
I have a HotRod style controller with a KeyWiz in it now. So the PS/2 port is used, but this is convenient for all emu, PC Games, MAME, etc.
I eventually would like to add a secondary panel with two trigger sticks in an Assault/Battle Zone configuration. (This would only be used in MAME and as either a standalone panel, or an add-on to my current panel for the odd 4-player games.)
Theoretically, I could use a USB I-pac for the Assault add-on (but not an I-PAC VE as both it and the KW would lose settings on power down), and come up with a weird key assignment for the I-PAC (Like P1UP = O, etc) and program MAME so P1UP was O or Up (for 2 player games) and P3 Up was O for four-player games, but having the device set up as J1B1 would be a lot easier to deal with.
Even moreso if I want to add a second Assualt Panel for Sarge, Vindicators, because then I use the same wiring and the second Panel becomes P2B1 or P1B1 by DEFAULT depending on when I plug it in.
Actually, this is one advantage of this for using this as a standard interface - translating controls.
--- Quote ---No analog inputs? Why? It's the one thing that nobody has... a non-hacked, cheap, analog interface solution.
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I assume you are familar with Daveb's AKI and it didn't meet your criteria for "cheap", correct?
tetsujin:
--- Quote from: Howard_Casto on February 08, 2005, 10:16:17 am ---Secondly, you are billing it as a modular solution. How exactly? It has 32 inputs, but only two axis... so unless you want to use some of the buttons as 2 player axis (which imho is very hacky and you shouldn't have to do), it can't even handle 2 players, despite the enormous amount of button inputs. It doesn't handle sub-panels well either, because of the cost. 20 bucks seems cheap until you realize that you have 5 panels.
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No, that's actually still pretty cheap for a quality controller. The functionality you get is worth it IMO.
I'd be curious to know more about how this is being envisioned as a modular system. I have some ideas about the kind of approach I want to take but I'm curious about what Randy has in mind, since I'll surely learn something from it.
But basically, one approach goes something like this: since each GP-Wiz has its own unique identifier, the front-end software can identify what controls you've connected to the system, and automatically set up the game's input configuration accordingly.
Another approach would be something more like what Tiger-Heli explained (and Randy seemed to allude to) - using this module for add-on controls. If the main controls are through the keyboard port, and secondary controls are attached as USB game devices, there are a few advantages. First, since the add-on controls are not emulating keyboards, their mappings will never conflict with controls already installed in the system. Second, the add-ons will be able to use USB without using the USB keyboard protocol. (Which Randy seemed to indicate has some unfavorable technical limitations - I don't know first-hand the extent to which those limitations can be avoided. Using USB means USB hubs are an option, rather than a strict daisy-chain of cooperating PS/2 devices.) For me, being able to identify the (modular or otherwise swappable) controls through software is another big plus compared to PS/2.
[size=0](Sorry I was kind of a dick yesterday.)[/size]
Tiger-Heli:
Hopefully RandyT will post his views as well, but . . .
--- Quote from: tetsujin on February 08, 2005, 01:10:31 pm ---I'd be curious to know more about how this is being envisioned as a modular system. I have some ideas about the kind of approach I want to take but I'm curious about what Randy has in mind, since I'll surely learn something from it.
But basically, one approach goes something like this: since each GP-Wiz has its own unique identifier, the front-end software can identify what controls you've connected to the system, and automatically set up the game's input configuration accordingly.
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True, but the unique identifier is mainly useful so that panel 2 remains panel 2 if you leave all your controls hooked up and turn the machine off and back on. For a modular design, where you plug and unplug panels, there are some other interesting effects:
Here's another way to look at it, which I was getting at earlier.
Let's say you have 6 desktop panels - each using one of these controllers -
The panels are the X-Arcade Solo layout - I.E. a single-player Street fighter layout.
Panels 1 and 2 are standard joystick panels.
Panels 3 and 4 are trigger sticks
Panels 5 and 6 are rotary joysticks (with USB mouse hacks (optical rotary, although thinking about it, there are enough inputs to support mechanical rotaries without Druin's interface).
Now here's where the beauty comes in -
I wire each panel so the Joystick is wired to the directionals. I wire the buttons to button inputs 1 to 6 (assuming the trigger and thumb buttons share inputs 1 and 2), Coin and Start are Buttons 7 and 8, and pause and escape are button 9 and 10, I still have 18 buttons left for the 12 inputs for each rotary joystick.
Now -
I can plug in the rotary panel for a quick game of 1Player Ikari - (Either panel 5 or 6 since they are wired identically.) Then if a friend wants to join in, I can plug the second rotary panel in, and Windows will automatically set it up as Panel 2.
Any panel could be used as Panel 1 on up to Panel 6 (if six-player X-men gets fixed), or anywhere in between with no remapping or software, no adjustment to MAME (other than the initial setup), no complicated wiring changes, etc. Coin buttons automatically correspond to the order that the panel was connected, etc.
--- Quote ---[size=0](Sorry I was kind of a dick yesterday.)[/size]
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[size=0]No problem.[/size]
RandyT:
--- Quote from: Howard_Casto on February 08, 2005, 10:16:17 am ---I love new hardware.... but i've got to be honest I don't know why anyone would choose to use this.
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How about these reasons:
It's the fastest USB solution with the highest number of inputs that can be actuated at the same time.
They are cheap enough to use one for each CP you decide to build, for Plug and Play operation.
They are small enough to put inside of a classic gaming controller to convert it to USB or make a box to convert "several" of them.
And I could keep going, so it's possible that you could be lacking somewhat in the imagination department..... ;)
--- Quote ---First off, it's essentially a gamepad. The whole reason eveyone uses keyboard encoders is that not every emulator, pc game or application has gamepad support. Mind you this isn't as big of a problem as it used to be by any means, but still.
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Are you listening to yourself, Howard? I think you just said, paraphrased, that "games don't use game controllers" :D
Virtually any application that uses DirectInput, will support a Gamepad and allow you to change the button definitions to whatever you want. I did a ton of research and could find only one that was a problem...and that one wouldn't even let you change key assignments.
A number of front-end apps (even your own :police:) allow the use of a game controller to navigate from within it.
--- Quote ---Secondly, you are billing it as a modular solution. How exactly? It has 32 inputs, but only two axis... so unless you want to use some of the buttons as 2 player axis (which imho is very hacky and you shouldn't have to do), it can't even handle 2 players, despite the enormous amount of button inputs.
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Howard, you aren't listening to yourself again. :D You say that it's "hacky" to use some of the buttons as joystick directions, but then talk about the KeyWiz and IPAC, which use the letters R, F, D and G on the keyboard for the second joystick, while the primary one defaults to the workable, but rather inefficient arrow keys. Are you going to tell me that the GP-Wiz approach is somehow less elegant?
Your "it can't even handle 2 players" statement couldn't be more wrong. It can handle as many players as there are inputs to connect joysticks to.
What is of the utmost importance is that the buttons perform equally to the Axes, and in the case of the GP-Wiz, great care was taken to ensure this. To be quite honest, I would have made ALL the inputs buttons, were it possible to do so and still have cross-platform compatibility using the HID spec.
--- Quote --- It doesn't handle sub-panels well either, because of the cost. 20 bucks seems cheap until you realize that you have 5 panels. I know some of you are saying.... "Well you can just make a harness and keep the pcb in the cp box, thus only switching out the controls."
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First of all, it will handle sub-panels just fine, if you choose to use it for that purpose. I don't know how many people have 5 sub-panels, but if they do, some "fancy dancin' " is going to be in order regardless of the solution chosen.
--- Quote ---Yes, yes you can.... you can also double wire your keywiz/ipac inputs to a custom harness and do the exact same thing, thus eliminating the need for this product.
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Howard, you used exactly the same "HC Brand" of logic when I introduced the KeyWiz (the other "product without a need" according to your opinion.) But since then, I have sold at least as many KeyWiz's as Oscar has sold spinners, to very satisfied customers, I am proud to add.
--- Quote ---While we are on the matter of cost... I'll admit 20 bucks is a decent price for a gamepad with that many inputs, however, I can get a pc pro pad 8 usb joystick for 6 bucks at any local store. It's easy to hack and although it only has 8 button inputs, I save not only 10 bucks on the initial cost, but also the cost of shipping. I woldn't mention this, because a non-hacked solution is obvioulsy better for the slight cost increase except:
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Yes, Howard, and we can all go down to the local Salvation Army store and buy a Keyboard for $2.00 and rip it apart for 8 buttons. But we both know (well, at least I do) that it's not the same as a KeyWiz or an IPAC.
The same applies to gamepads. I researched a number of these units and they tended to be slow and the buttons do not always function as you would expect them to. Some are matrixed, or not given the same priority as the Axes, and, and and.....
The GP-Wiz has none of these shortcomings, and to be honest, it's a little naive to think that a little blob of silicon on the circuit board of a $5 game pad will perform equal to a full-fledged microcontroller with custom, performance-enhanced microcode.
--- Quote ---No analog inputs? Why? It's the one thing that nobody has... a non-hacked, cheap, analog interface solution.
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Why? for the same reason there are no analog inputs on a KeyWiz or Ipac. It's not designed for that purpose. A 4 or 8 or even a 49 way joystick and buttons (or dancepad, or whatever) use digital inputs, just like a game pad does. And yes, I am considering a version for 49-way sticks.
BTW, there are analog joystick solutions out there, but cheap is relative and I don't know what your socio-economic situation is to quantify that statement.
--- Quote ---As is the usb pcb that you've made doesn't offer any features worth using it over a keyboard encoder. If anything it's limitations would put some people off from buying it.
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Howard, if "some people" is "you" then I can live with that. You've never had anything good to say to or about me or any of my products, nor have you purchased any. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by your post, but I had vainly hoped.....
The first feature is that it is USB and not a keyboard encoder. As a gamepad, it can send twice the data in half the time with no limitations on simultaneous button/switch closures.
I switched out the KeyWiz in my cabinet with a GP-Wiz for testing purposes, and to be quite honest, I can't think of a compelling reason to go through the trouble of putting the KeyWiz back in. So it's a matter of preference and what an individual's circumstances dictate is the best choice for him/her. It's not about "limitations."
--- Quote ---I want you to succeed, it's just that this doesn't seem like a good idea to me. If it had analog inputs and some additional axis for the same price then I'd be all over it... but as is, it merely limits what you can do with your inputs, as opposed to a keyboard encoder, which potentially can offer just as many inputs, without the hinderance of requiring joystick support or usb support.
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Your opinion is noted, but please realize that it is your opinion and that you don't speak for everyone. Your needs are not the needs of everyone, and your limitations are also not the limitations of everyone. There are a number of very useful applications for the GP-Wiz, not the least of which, and has been pointed out several times, supplemental controls for upgrading the capabilities of a current keyboard encoder installation.
And if you think daisy-chaining PS/2 devices is comparable, you really need to do some reading on the subject.
--- Quote from: Howard_Casto on February 08, 2005, 10:22:10 am ---*personal note*
Pointing out that this product is built from a usb kit is just lame. It doesn't matter.... the tools to properly program the eproms cost about 200 bucks (and I'm being conservative) so unless you are running a business and already have the tools, this route is unaccessable to the average consumer.
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*personal note*
"What the heck is Howard on about and who is this statement directed at?" :D
But just for fun, try $2000 for dev tools and there are no "USB kits." You actually have to read books and work hard and stuff :)
RandyT
Hoagie_one:
--- Quote ---But since then, I have sold at least as many KeyWiz's as Oscar has sold spinners, to very satisfied customers, I am proud to add.
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I'm one