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Iraq Elections
Dexter:
Also, the financial implications. When explained in terms of loss of investment in the Euro (which leading financial experts always touted as a reason for the invasion), the invasion also makes sense. It just didn't go to plan.
mr.Curmudgeon:
--- Quote from: DrewKaree on February 03, 2005, 04:26:16 am ---In Iraq, when 50% (actually, more than that, but to dumb it down for ya) say they want to give the process "Bush forced on them", that means they've chosen to "give it a whirl".
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*BWAAACK* Polly want a cracker with those figures??
"The point is: Nobody knows, and reporters and pundits should have never acted like they did know when they stated, flatly, that 8 million Iraqis voted and that this represents a turnout rate of about 57%. "
...
"In a rare reference to an actual vote tabulation, The New York Times on Thursday reports that in the "diverse" city of Mosul, with 60% of the count completed, the overall turnout seems slightly above 10%, or "somewhat more than 50,000 of Mosul's 500,000 estimated eligible voters."
EDIT: Updated numbers.
"In al-Anbar it was only 17,000 of 250,000 eligible voters, or 7% turnout. In Mosul, a city of 1.8 million people, only 54,000 votes were cast (3% of the population, so probably no more than 5% of the eligible voters). At one poll in Mosul only 3% of voters were women. At another, which opened at 7:00, at 10:00 they didn't have a single voter except the soldiers assigned to protect it."
Things are not always as they seem...
mrC
mr.Curmudgeon:
--- Quote from: ChadTower on February 04, 2005, 09:10:38 am ---These are military decisions that WILL pay unprecedented dividends.
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Most people arguing against the war realize we are there for these reasons, and *not* for any of the other misleading/ever-changing rationales (WMD, Nu-c-u-lar Weapons, Weapons of Mass Destruction-Related Program Activities, Saddam tried to kill my daddy, Rape Rooms, Iraqi GOTV, etc...). The problem is when the real reason is obvious to everyone in the world, yet, we as a nation are seen to except these other lies at face value, America's integrity is eroded and our enemies are further emboldened. The ultimate goal is to defeat them, not give them more reasons to fight.
Will you still believe we're receiving "unprecedented dividends" once Arab nationals decide to bring the war to our front-door, with suicide bombings in the mall of America and school bus bombings in your neighborhood?
You may believe that sort of thing is bound to happen, I am merely suggesting that our aggressive actions in provoking war, without justification, are making sure it'll happen... in spades.
Most critics of Bush's doctrine of preemption in Iraq agree there were other ways to do what needed to be done in the Middle East...preemptively attacking Iraq was *not*, by far, the most effective way to go about it...and I feel, in the end, our country will certainly receive "payback", but not the kind your thinking of.
mrC
ChadTower:
You've responded to a military strategy discussion with morality issues. It's a different discussion.
--- Quote ---The ultimate goal is to defeat them, not give them more reasons to fight.
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How do you defeat an enemy without giving them reason to fight you?
--- Quote ---The problem is when the reason is obvious to everyone in the world, yet, we as a nation are seen to except these lies at face value...
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Ever been to a business meeting, where organizational decisions are made but much of the rationale is held back with the explanation of "we can't discuss those issues publicly"? That's what this is, only it's far more severe because we're talking global military issues. They can't openly discuss all of the reasons. This is one of those times one has to think about the major reasons for themself because open discussion of them will get more Americans killed.
mr.Curmudgeon:
--- Quote from: ChadTower on February 04, 2005, 12:35:34 pm ---You've responded to a military strategy discussion with morality issues. It's a different discussion.
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Maybe so, but I tend to think of war as a moral issue.
--- Quote ---How do you defeat an enemy without giving them reason to fight you?
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Good question...I'm not suggesting it's entirely avoidable, rather that it isn't efficient to proceed creating more and unifiying others. Which, until we see how the election process plays out, is certainly a possibility, and I would argue, a reality.
--- Quote ---The problem is when the reason is obvious to everyone in the world, yet, we as a nation are seen to except these lies at face value...
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--- Quote ---Ever been to a business meeting, where organizational decisions are made but much of the rationale is held back with the explanation of "we can't discuss those issues publicly"?
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Yes. Yes I have. I also know that most "employees" intuitively know the real reasons and lose faith in the company afterward.
--- Quote ---This is one of those times one has to think about the major reasons for themself because open discussion of them will get more Americans killed.
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Not when starting a war. Short term, yes, less violence and less american casualties. Long term, continued uprising, unbearable cost burden, isolation in the world. It's just unacceptable to me. This notion is basically sanctioning imperialistic behavior, by imagining no one else sees it. That is not my idea of America.
I understand what you are suggesting, however, I'm not trying to convince you of anything...just stating my response.
mrC