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USB "Gamepad" encoder questions
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Tiger-Heli:

--- Quote from: tetsujin on January 27, 2005, 12:38:42 pm ---Thanks for the link to those encoders, too.  I'm not doing analog or 49-way controls on this panel but it's good to see what's out there.

--- End quote ---
You must not have seen that in addition to five analog axes, the AKI has fourteen pushbutton inputs that register as Gamepad One 1-7 and Gamepad 2 1-7, thus basically acting as a USB gamepad encoder.   :police: 8)
tetsujin:

--- Quote from: Tiger-Heli on January 27, 2005, 04:48:55 pm ---
--- Quote from: tetsujin on January 27, 2005, 12:38:42 pm ---Thanks for the link to those encoders, too.  I'm not doing analog or 49-way controls on this panel but it's good to see what's out there.

--- End quote ---
You must not have seen that in addition to five analog axes, the AKI has fourteen pushbutton inputs that register as Gamepad One 1-7 and Gamepad 2 1-7, thus basically acting as a USB gamepad encoder.   :police: 8)

--- End quote ---

Yeah, but to make the joystick control the joystick axes I'd need to hook up a resistor network to the switches, and seven buttons per player might not be enough for my control panel.  Plus I could build the same circuit (or a better one) for less money.

But it's still really great to know there's a joystick encoder board out there.  I'd like to try one of Dave's boards sometime.
NoOne=NBA=:
Tetsujin,

Just so that you know from the start, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, or start a flame war.
You seem to be at least reasonably informed about this, so I am truly interested in your reasoning about the following:




--- Quote from: tetsujin on January 27, 2005, 11:33:57 am ---I was referring to keyboard encoders when I said "keyboard hacks", because I consider them a hack.
--- End quote ---

Why?

A true keyboard HACK will have problems with ghosting, etc...
The encoders are designed to eliminate the matrix issues involved in TRUE keyboards, and send digital signals down the USB, or PS/2 line, so are essentially NOT a keyboard, from a design standpoint--despite being resolved as such by the HID drivers.

Following your definition of a hack to its logical conclusion, if you design a gamepad encoder, to interface your controls to, will it not be a GAMEPAD hack?

I play all kinds of games that will accept input from keyboards, joysticks, gamepads, etc.... and have never seen a PRACTICAL difference in input between them.

The big question I have here is what difference does it make, from a gaming standpoint, whether the device you are planning to design/use sends a "keyboard A key" signal, or a "Joystick Button 1" signal--as long as the RESULTING action, in the game, is the same?




--- Quote ---I'm sorry, let's put my personal distaste for keyboard encoders aside.  I just don't want one.
--- End quote ---

Why?
Again, what LOGICAL reason have you found to opt for SEVERAL gamepad hacks, and the possible difficulties involved, as opposed to a single keyboard encoder?

You even went so far as to say the following, in your original post:

--- Quote ---I'm willing to muddle through the sometimes-lackluster USB gamepad support in some emulators in order to avoid connecting a non-keyboard as though it were a keyboard.
--- End quote ---
That makes absolutely no sense to me.
Why would you INTENTIONALLY opt for a format, that you KNOW has spotty support, just to avoid using a VIABLE, and more importantly FULLY FUNCTIONAL, alternative?




--- Quote ---Similarly, I can't imagine any game I'd want to play that doesn't support USB gamepads.  But maybe I forgot something, who knows?  That's why I was asking for suggestions there.
--- End quote ---

You apparently forgot that you originally DID imagine playing "some emulators with lack-luster gamepad support".




--- Quote ---But as for the difficulty involved in making a USB encoder, it's really going to be pretty minimal.  The source code is already out there on Microchip's website.  I have a PIC programmer and I know how to use it.
--- End quote ---

You have all the tools you need to TRY this, and see how it works.
Why don't you just DO it, and let us know how it worked?
If it doesn't work, you'll be out a few bucks on chips, but you'll KNOW it doesn't work.



--- Quote ---what I'm going to learn from this project is going to be well worth the effort, and my finished control panel will stand as a demonstration of those new skills. And I won't have had to compromise on matters of taste, or resort to buying and hacking up anything to build the controller.  That's really exciting.

--- End quote ---

You seem set on building this the way you want it anyway, so just build it.
The worst that can happen is that you may have to come behind yourself, and wire the controls to a keyboard encoder.
That will leave you out the money for the chips themselves, and time, but not bring the project to a complete halt.

An even better solution would be to pop the money for a keyboard encoder and wire it up BOTH ways, to see if one actually outperforms the other.

If you do learn something useful, please make sure to post back what you learned.
Information sharing is the primary function of this board.


As a side note, the AKI and SJC both use the same components, chips, and circuit board.
The functional difference is in the encoder chip itself.
My guess, not having investigated it fully, is that you could design a fully digital gamepad from the same circuit, replacing the inputs from the 49-way with discreet button inputs.
That was Dave's ORIGINAL plan, until the demand for analog and 49-way support drove him away from it.
tetsujin:

--- Quote from: NoOne=NBA= on January 27, 2005, 07:46:49 pm ---Just so that you know from the start, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, or start a flame war.
--- End quote ---

I know you're not.  I just think I started off on the wrong foot, and I wanted to put this to rest.  A lot of people here use keyboard encoders because, like you're saying, they get the job done.  So starting this thread with my tirade about why I hate the whole concept of keyboard encoding game controls was just asking for trouble.

Nevertheless, I am not at all interested in this debate about why you think I should use a keyboard encoder.  I'm a bit of a tech-head and a tech-purist and I want my joysticks to be encoded as joysticks.  That's pretty much it.  I think it's awesome that I can buy a $20 controller that's decked out like a PSX controller, rig up hubs and plug in 50 of the buggers if I want.  All without special drivers.  I just think it's really cool that it's no longer necessary to resort to measures like putting game controller data onto the keyboard bus, like it was 10-15 years ago.

The one emulator that comes to mind that I did have serious problems with USB gamepads is MacMAME.  USB input works in MacMAME but the configuration doesn't.  But my cabinet's not going to have a Mac in it.  Other than that, I'd heard that this was a reason why people use keyboard encoders.  So I think I'll be perfectly content treating ill-behaved software as the exception rather than the rule.

The situation I'm trying to avoid is one where I build the controls and set up the software, and play a bunch of games, and then a few months down the road I or someone else plays a game and realizes, "hey, this is a little laggy, isn't it?"  Or what if it's a problem I'll only see once I've got a four-player console going?  Not something I can easily test on my own.  Plus it's my knee-jerk reaction: if so many people are resorting to putting their game controls onto a keyboard port in this day and age I had to wonder if there was something wrong with the alternative.  I suppose there's probably not.

If you want to continue discussing why I want to encode my joysticks as joysticks, PM me and we can talk all day.  I don't want this thread gunked up any more.  There's actually been some useful information posted.
krick:

--- Quote from: tetsujin on January 27, 2005, 08:33:35 pm ---The situation I'm trying to avoid is one where I build the controls and set up the software, and play a bunch of games, and then a few months down the road I or someone else plays a game and realizes, "hey, this is a little laggy, isn't it?"
--- End quote ---
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