Author Topic: Translucent Leaf-Button Lighting 101 (Read 54718 times)

Knievel · « **on:** January 16, 2005, 01:47:56 pm »

Decided to post this in the main forum as it seems to be taking over my thread in Project Announcements. I came up with the idea while building my latest cab, see it here...http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,30538.0.html

I wanted lighted Wico leaf buttons and had yet to see anything that did it well.
In my quest I tried pretty much everything out there for lighting. Using fluorescent lights, cold cathode tubes and neon car lighting inside the CP box all proved less than dramatic. The best result was with an LED shining up at the button, but it was still pretty weak.
The idea I came up with was to get the LED/LED'S as close to the button as possible and this is what I came up with...

You can see in these pics that I drilled a 3/16" hole through the center of the button holder to make a hole on either side to mount LED's in. The 3/16" bit is the perfect size for mounting the standard superbright LED's. It's a snug fit and won't require any other fastening.

If you have a drill press you can clamp the holder between 2 blocks of wood and drill down through it. If you don't then start the hole with a smaller bit and work your way up to the 3/16".

The results....

Of course it's tough to get a good picture of a glowing button in the dark but the first photo is the most accurate one I took. You may think 2 LED's would be too bright and distracting but they're not. The buttons literally GLOW... they don't shine. This is because the LED's are pointed directly into the button housing/stem and are diffused. Another plus from this is that the whole thing glows, not just the pushbutton itself.

See my NEON MAME post in Project Announcements forum for more pics...and check out FLYERCADE too.

bsoder52 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2005, 04:06:07 pm »

Awesome Job Evil!

Where did you get the Leds?

Also, anyway I could get my hands on a copy of the CPO?

bsoder52

muell67 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 16, 2005, 05:10:51 pm »

looks great!

are those buttons nos, or does wico still sell them? I couldnt find them in there catalog.
were did you get yours?

spidermonkey · « **Reply #3 on:** January 16, 2005, 09:41:43 pm »

They are still availiable from Wico. I bought mine from http://www.centsibleamusements.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=225[/url]

muell67 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 16, 2005, 09:46:30 pm »

thanks. I was about to place a order from them for coin door parts.

Knievel · « **Reply #5 on:** January 16, 2005, 09:57:16 pm »

I got mine straight from Wico...http://www.wicothesource.com/new2/pages/page87.htm
Some people have had issues ordering from them but I've never had a problem.

Got the LED's off eBay, think it was this seller...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=66948&item=3866786849&rd=1

Good luck!

FractalWalk · « **Reply #6 on:** January 17, 2005, 12:58:35 pm »

That looks awesome.

A word of warning for those who want to imitate. The holders used are the thick holders designed for metal panels. If you get the ones designed for wood, then you will have trouble drilling the hole.

The wood ones don't have a solid ring, but rather are "split" into two two thin rings of different diameters that sit on top of each other (visualize a small washer sitting on top of a big washer).

Since each "ring" is less than 3/16", you would have to drill through both to get this to work. And since the rings are different diameters, the drill bit would keep getting pushed to the side. It would be the same thing as trying to drill half a hole into the edge of a piece of wood.

Knievel · « **Reply #7 on:** January 17, 2005, 01:22:33 pm »

Thanks for adding that, I didn't know there was a difference.

I think if you were to clamp the holder pieces between 2 blocks of wood and then clamped that to a drill-press table you still might be able to make it work.

Getting a fair amount of e-mail on this. For those looking to copy this technique I used the following Wico parts for each button...

22-1040-16 2" Blue Transparent Button
22-1052 Button Holder Assy w/Switch
1160-092 Pal Nut (think I had to buy a min. quantity of these)

That link again...
http://www.wicothesource.com/new2/pages/page87.htm

scooter · « **Reply #8 on:** January 18, 2005, 10:01:51 am »

Are these the dark blue buttons or the light blue ones?

Lilwolf · « **Reply #9 on:** January 18, 2005, 10:15:02 am »

btw, are you using one or two led's between each button?

And AMAZING job! I wish I could get my wiring to look that good!

Knievel · « **Reply #10 on:** January 18, 2005, 11:21:22 am »

Scooter they are the readily available light-blue ones.
I managed to track down some of the dark blue and they didn't light up as well.
They did match better when they were turned off, but they never will be

Lilwolf there's 2 LED's between the buttons, back to back. I wired those together to simplify things.
The LED's are all daisy-chained in parallel with the proper resistor for 12v supply on each one. Then they connect to a spare 12v(yellow+black)molex connector on the computer power supply. Very simple, no extra power source to worry about and they turn on/off with the computer.

BTW I experimented with 1 LED per button and they looked pretty good but 2 pointing at one another really does the job...3 made no difference.

On the NEON CP there's 2 LED's beneath the trackball as well.

Jakobud · « **Reply #11 on:** January 18, 2005, 05:26:53 pm »

Hey Kneviel, would you be interested in writing out a tutorial on wiring LED's? I've forgotten most of what I once knew about resistance and current and stuff, but a lot of people here have no idea where to start for something like this. Perhaps you could just write a simple tutorial for lighting up a few LED's. Like tell what values of reistors to use and why to use those and how to wire it all to a power supply. Is this something you could do? A lot of people here would benefit from it.

bsoder52 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 18, 2005, 06:40:53 pm »

I 2nd that suggestion, if you have time.
I would go ahead and emulate this, but the wiring is over my head.
I wired my entire control panel no problem.

I have 2 coindoor lights with the lights in them (normally sold that way) and I can't get them wired up to a power supply even.

ChadTower · « **Reply #13 on:** January 18, 2005, 08:00:52 pm »

It's a good design, and I can say I may emulate it myself.

Knievel · « **Reply #14 on:** January 18, 2005, 11:22:55 pm »

Well guys I'm pretty busy at the moment but I think this tutorial about covers it...
http://www.lsdiodes.com/tutorial/

I went the Parallel route, if you're using a 12v supply you'll need a 470 ohm resistor for each LED. For the 12v you just connect the LED leads to the yellow and black wires of an unused Molex connector coming out of you computers power supply.

I would suggest buying the LED's off eBay from a seller who packages them together with the proper resistors. I just did a quick search and this one seems to have good quantities/prices....
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZaxioms1

If you have a specific question about the process just ask away.

Knievel · « **Reply #15 on:** January 18, 2005, 11:28:22 pm »

bsoder check this link to Retrobast, it explains coindoor lighting...
http://www.retroblast.com/articles/coindoor.html

Basically you're tapping into the 12v(yellow+black)wires from the PS, just like I did for the LED's.
Of course your bulbs should be 12v so there's no resistor required for those, just connect them directly.

shawnzilla · « **Reply #16 on:** January 19, 2005, 02:58:21 pm »

Did you use 3mm LEDs or 5mm?

Knievel · « **Reply #17 on:** January 19, 2005, 03:10:47 pm »

I used the 5mm, if you use the 3mm you'll need to use a smaller drill bit.
Forgot to mention the 'mcd' number refers to the brightness...should be 8-10k for the blues.

Like these...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3673&item=6736545927&rd=1

penjuin · « **Reply #18 on:** January 19, 2005, 08:04:31 pm »

Great idea!

Anyway, for those of you who wanted it, LED tutorial. its pretty basic so when that site comes back online use it (it was offline when i went). A lot of this info is probably overkill but it doesn't hurt to know.

LED Basics
The Basic idea of a LED (Light emitting diode) is to block electricity flowing in one direction and also produce light. The Anode (longer leg) is universally positive, and the negative leg is the cathode. Voltage that can be passed through the LED depends on the specs, so i cannot tell you exactly, but i am guessing that most LEDs will take 12V. This is not to say run and buy a car battery and hook it into your cab! It really depends on the amps coming from the power source.

Amps & Coulombs
Amps are the unit for measuring how many electrons are moving past a single point. A coulomb is approximately 6.241506

Jakobud · « **Reply #19 on:** January 19, 2005, 09:28:43 pm »

quick LED question for you guys:

Lets say I have a box full of LED's. None of them are marked. How do I determine what voltage and current each LED needs in order to light up properly without burning it out or something? Like is there anyway to determine the vital statistics of an LED if you don't have them?

Oldskool · « **Reply #20 on:** January 19, 2005, 09:42:04 pm »

Even 1 superbright LED per button works well.

Knievel · « **Reply #21 on:** January 19, 2005, 11:14:12 pm »

Jakobud I'm no expert but I would connect a 1.5v(AA) battery to the LED leads, observing the correct polarity...

First try a single AA and if you don't get any light then try 2 together. If a single doesn't produce any light it's likely a blue or white LED that requires a higher voltage.

You should get enough light to determine the color. Then you'll know the voltage you need. From what I've read....
Red and green need 2 volts
Blue and white need 3.5 volts

This is for the superbright style LED's like I used.

Oldskool that looks great however the orange buttons are very easy to light. A blue/green button will barely light up that way, I tried it.

If you have a spare leaf mount you should try my method. I tested orange buttons as well because we were considering them on the FLYERCADE CP.
Even with the orange color there is quite a difference between a light shining at the bottom of a button vs 1 or 2 mounted in it.

penjuin · « **Reply #22 on:** January 20, 2005, 01:21:18 am »

i wouldn't trust anything except a multimeter or packaging. trying to trace a manufacturer may help, but is not worth the time. If you have access to a multimeter then have a look at http://www.metku.net/index.html?sect=view&n=1&path=mods/ledcalc/index_eng which can do all the work for you. I trust this calculator very much, and i think you should too.

Also, i know this is kind of off topic, but http://www.metku.net is a really great place to build small but impressive things to add on to your cab

Knievel · « **Reply #23 on:** January 21, 2005, 11:21:00 am »

I don't see anything on that page that will determine the value of an unknown LED.
I tested my idea and it works well for identifying the superbrights.

Sorry guys but this post wasn't intended to be a tutorial on LED's. I was more trying to show my method for mounting them in the leaf holders and what I specifically used so you could recreate it. I just know this setup works, I'm not an expert on them.

FractalWalk · « **Reply #24 on:** January 21, 2005, 02:12:40 pm »

What color LEDs should be used for orange and red buttons?

And before anyone says "duh, orange and red", I am asking in reference to brightness. If I use a superbirght blue at 8-10k mcd, will they look outrageously bright next to the much lower mcd orange and red ones? Shoud I just put superbright white ones in the orange and red buttons?

Also, I don't see why kneivel's method of testing for voltage wouldn't work. As long as you don't make a large incremental leap in voltage, you should be fine.

Knievel · « **Reply #25 on:** January 21, 2005, 04:02:14 pm »

Fractal I can't speak for the red LED's (never tried them) but using the orange ones in an orange button provides a glow similar to the blue.
The blues are harder to light so the they need the higher mcd to get the same glow as the orange, if that makes sense. I don't have the orange buttons here or I would take a pic for you.

penjuin · « **Reply #26 on:** January 21, 2005, 09:21:22 pm »

After re-reading Knievel's post i think that it would be the easiest way to find LED voltages. Sorry about the doubt.

Knievel · « **Reply #27 on:** January 31, 2005, 01:23:22 am »

For those who've never used the Wico's before I wanted to add the fact that they need a 1 3/16" hole vs the usual 1 1/8" pushbutton hole.

Also if you've got a 3/4" thick CP you'll need to route/chisel out approx 1/4" of wood on the underside where the buttons holders mount. You won't be able to get the nuts on otherwise...the buttons aren't long enough.

LeedsFan · « **Reply #28 on:** January 31, 2005, 07:24:29 am »

Well.... I'm sold on this idea. I've ordered my parts from Wico and I've been doing some research regarding the LEDs. I'm going to get my LEDs from a local store, that way I can try a couple of different brightnesses out first then pick the ones I like best, and then buy the rest I need.

As far as the technicals go, I think I only need to be sure of the forward voltage and the current they normally work on. Then I can do the following calculation to find what size resisitor I need:

Supply Voltage

RayB · « **Reply #29 on:** January 31, 2005, 11:15:43 am »

Quote from: Knievel on January 31, 2005, 01:23:22 am

Also if you've got a 3/4" thick CP you'll need to route/chisel out approx 1/4" of wood on the underside where the buttons holders mount. You won't be able to get the nuts on otherwise...the buttons aren't long enough.

Is that for "short" buttons or "long"? And is that with a holder for wood, or a holder for metal panels?

Knievel · « **Reply #30 on:** January 31, 2005, 11:29:29 am »

It's for the parts that I used and have pictured/linked to above, the long buttons and the metal mounts.

My NEON MAME project has been updated. I came up with a sideart idea that compliments the lit buttons quite nicely... may do a how-to on it as well if there's interest.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,30538.0.html

sdrob04 · « **Reply #31 on:** January 31, 2005, 08:35:41 pm »

So I've combed the threads, and either I've been on the computer too long and my eyes are tired (the most likely scenario) or there was no actual mention of which color choice was used for the LED's in your beautiful control panel. They appear white in the 3rd and 4th pictures, but it's difficult to be certain. I'm sure you experimented with various LED color choices--if you used blue LED's for blue buttons, what sort of results did you get with straight white LED's? Two of the eBay links you provided as LED sources have so many choices--it's tough to figure out which ones to get!

I too have the light blue transparent buttons, but I also have darker blue and red ones as well. Would it make the most sense to purchase white to cover all the bases, or would I end up wishing I had picked like-colors for each of the button types I have? Can you add a few more comments about color choices/mcd values from your experience?

Thanks a bunch, and kudos to the fine work on your cabinet.

FractalWalk · « **Reply #32 on:** January 31, 2005, 08:50:47 pm »

Quote from: sdrob04 on January 31, 2005, 08:35:41 pm

They appear white in the 3rd and 4th pictures, but it's difficult to be certain.

LeedsFan · « **Reply #33 on:** February 01, 2005, 03:56:45 am »

Quote from: FractalWalk on January 31, 2005, 08:50:47 pm

Quote from: sdrob04 on January 31, 2005, 08:35:41 pm
They appear white in the 3rd and 4th pictures, but it's difficult to be certain.

Knievel · « **Reply #34 on:** February 01, 2005, 01:37:53 pm »

Yes blue LED's is what I used, sorry I thought I mentioned that somewhere.

I would stick to matching the led color to the button color. I tried white superbright LED's on light and dark blue buttons as well as the orange...they all looked washed out.

CPickler · « **Reply #35 on:** April 05, 2005, 05:52:40 am »

How did you mount the LEDs on the Trackball?

rchadd · « **Reply #36 on:** April 27, 2005, 07:06:25 pm »

fantastic work

but are there translucent buttons that will work with wooden cp's?

whats best solution clear buttons and colored leds, or colored button with white led's?

Knievel · « **Reply #37 on:** April 27, 2005, 10:50:34 pm »

CPickler I just used a piece of velcro to hold the LED's to the Trackball, lots of methods out there.

rchadd thanks for the comments. Those are the long Wico translucent buttons I used. They are intended for wooden CP's but as I mentioned I still had to route out 1/4" of the CP underside where the buttons were. That's using a 3/4" thick CP.

I've found colored buttons with the matching color LED looks best, the white LED's wash out the color. Clear translucent Wico buttons are very rare so that's not really an option. I think they would look pretty lame when the LED's were off anyway.

If you can live with the *click click* there is a thread in the main forum where someone is working on getting translucent microswitch buttons made. Should be a good option for everyone.

IntruderAlert · « **Reply #38 on:** April 27, 2005, 11:51:18 pm »

Beautiful job dude!
Thanks for sharing

Thndrbug · « **Reply #39 on:** May 14, 2005, 09:57:29 pm »

Knievel--

Love the Buttons. Are the clear or are they blue...hard to see, I am not using my PC and this monitor stinks. Where did you get them from?

Thanks Thndrbug

I hope to be posting my project soon


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Author Topic: Translucent Leaf-Button Lighting 101 (Read 54718 times)

muell67

muell67