Questions on rotary joysticks

[Darkstalker]

Has anyone looked into the rotary joysticks on the Happs Controls page?  It looks like the 8-way is a standard hookup, but I'm a bit perplexed on the rotary aspect.  I plan on using the Hagstom Electronics LE72 since it gets around the ghosting problem of keyboard hacks.

I'd really like to play games like Heavy Barrel or Ikari Warriors a bit more "True-to-form."

[cdbrown]

I'm going to get a rotary joystick of the optical type, which then gets connected straight into an optipac.  But this is probably not what you are looking at  .  From the diagrams it looks like theres quite alot of wires to indicate rotated position.  I guess at least 12 since it's a 12 position rotary.  Unfortunately I don't know how this works, maybe it's like the LS-30 which would need a different type of interface.  http://members.rogers.com/druins22/ls30/  this site has an interface for the mechanical rotary joystick which in the faq says they should work for the Happ type Ikari joystick.

Hope this helps

Cheers
-cdbrown

[MrToasty]

Check out VideoConnect.com.  They sell the SNK LS30 sticks (real Heavy Barrel/Ikari Warrior type) for about $15.  Then I'd go with an I-Pac for the 8-way control with druin's interface to run the rotary.

[jerryjanis]

There were also some Mame source code that somebody posted so that you could recompile MAME to use Druin's interface correctly.  Without the modified MAME code, MAME treats the controls like an analog spinner and no matter how much you adjust the settings, you will click 10 times to the right and the man will only turn 9 times (or will move 11 times etc.).

The modified MAME code, I believe, makes one click yield one turn, more like the original joystick I would imagine.

I could dig up the code if you want it, but I haven't tried it yet (too busy with all the other great things to do)

[Darkstalker]

Thanks for all the input!  

I think I'm going to go with the Happs joystick since the origional LS30 controllers were a bit too "stubby" for me.  Has anyone used either the Happs or the LS30?  I'm wondering how stiff the rotary controls are.  I'd hate to go through the work and expense of getting these to work, but be really horrible for fighting games, or any game that doesn't use rotary joysticks really.

With Druin's interface board attached to the LE72, it sounds just like pressing the rotate left/right buttons for each click of the rotar...I don't get where MAME would pick it up as an analog signal, since it's just receiving one keystroke signal for each click...


I chose to go with the LE72 since each player is going to have a coin entry, start button, then 7 action buttons (6 in Jamma style, with a 7th placed so the bottom four are set up like a Neo-Geo ABCD style).  Throw in two side buttons for pinball, plus each joystick's UDLR.

I'm wondering if I should put all this info I've been gathering on a webpage and chart the progress...heh

[Magnet_Eye]

Are you talking about Happ's ROTARY sticks or OPTICAL sticks? The optical sticks connect rather easily to the Opti-Pac. They are nice sticks and work well(basicially the same as Happ's Supers). They do not have the 12 position "clicking," they just rotate freely like a spinnner, but they play all the games just fine.

[cdbrown]

I think I'm going to go with the Happs joystick since the origional LS30 controllers were a bit too "stubby" for me.  Has anyone used either the Happs or the LS30?  I'm wondering how stiff the rotary controls are.  I'd hate to go through the work and expense of getting these to work, but be really horrible for fighting games, or any game that doesn't use rotary joysticks really.

I believe the rotary joy and optical joy are both based on the Happs super but just have the additional rotary component on the bottom.  Since the super seems to be a good all round type of stick there shouldn't be any problems - you may just have to spend more time perfecting the moves.

I chose to go with the LE72 since each player is going to have a coin entry, start button, then 7 action buttons (6 in Jamma style, with a 7th placed so the bottom four are set up like a Neo-Geo ABCD style).  Throw in two side buttons for pinball, plus each joystick's UDLR.

How many players are you having?  You can have the pinball buttons wired into the P1 buttons to save inputs, since you won't be needing the P1 buttons while playing pinball games.

FYI, I'm having a 4 player panel with players 1 and 2 having a Happs optical hooked into an optipac, with 8 player buttons each, players 3 and 4 will have standard Happs supers and 4 buttons each.  All players will have credit and start buttons.  All wired to an ipac4 with a few inputs left over if I want to have the config keys (tab, esc etc.)

Cheers
-cdbrown

[Tiger-Heli]

Thanks for all the input!  
I think I'm going to go with the Happs joystick since the origional LS30 controllers were a bit too "stubby" for me.  Has anyone used either the Happs or the LS30?  I'm wondering how stiff the rotary controls are.  I'd hate to go through the work and expense of getting these to work, but be really horrible for fighting games, or any game that doesn't use rotary joysticks really.

Board lost my first attempt at this, retyping, not a happy camper  

Both the Happ sticks are based on the Super and should be good for most any games.  They take a lot of depth below the panel, though.  The LS-30's are specifically not well recommended for non-rotary games.

With Druin's interface board attached to the LE72, it sounds just like pressing the rotate left/right buttons for each click of the rotar...I don't get where MAME would pick it up as an analog signal, since it's just receiving one keystroke signal for each click...

Source code fixes were posted by MC-Escher and are available here http://www.cryptnet1.net/mame/ for MAME 0.59.  (You can use the custom 0.59 build for the rotary games and the later builds for everything else).

MAME isn't picking up an analog signal (with Druin's interface), but it is receiving one VARIABLE DURATION keystoke signal for each click.

Here's the problem:  In standard MAME using the keyboard, the character will continue to rotate as long as the key is depressed.  This is the best way to play with a normal keyboard.

With Druin's interface (very extreme examples), let's say I rotate the joystick VERY slowly one click.  The character might rotate 180 degrees, because to MAME I have depressed the rotate key for 2 seconds.  Now let's say I rotate the joystick VERY quickly six clicks.  The character might only rotate 45 degrees, because, to MAME I only depressed the rotate key for 0.1 seconds.

What MC-escher's build does is modify MAME so that if you were to press and hold the rotate key for 30 seconds (and not get killed) the character would not rotate more than one click (45 or 30 degrees, depending on the game).  This takes the rotation speed out of the equation.

Hopefully I didn't lose you here.

You might also want to check out:
http://www.fraggersxtreme.com/arcadepanels/faq.htm

The Rotary Joysticks you mention are not available yet and I want to play IKARI! What should I do?

and

What below panel depth is required?

(Direct links to the bookmarks don't seem to be working, sorry.)

[Darkstalker]

Are you talking about Happ's ROTARY sticks or OPTICAL sticks? The optical sticks connect rather easily to the Opti-Pac. They are nice sticks and work well(basicially the same as Happ's Supers). They do not have the 12 position "clicking," they just rotate freely like a spinnner, but they play all the games just fine.

I wanted to use an actual rotary joystick.  I'm sure the optical is nice since it's a smooth rotation, but I wanted to actually be able to feel the clicks like the LS-30 had on the real cabs.  It's been a while since I've played Heavy Barrel on a real cab, but I can't imagine playing Samauri Showdown on a LS-30 stick...Hence the reason I was leaning towards the Happs style.

<large snip> Hopefully I didn't lose you here.

Nope, followed your logic just fine.  Made lots of sence now that it was explained more in-depth of what the problem was.

How many players are you having?  You can have the pinball buttons wired into the P1 buttons to save inputs, since you won't be needing the P1 buttons while playing pinball games.

Here's an out of scale pic of what I wanted the layout to look like:



I'm shooting for a size somewhat close to Jamma style since I'm considering converting a cab instead of building one, I just need to hit the arcade with a tape measure so I have some real dimensions to work with.  I might just take your suggestion and just use the SNK position "A" buttons for the flipper buttons, that way I don't have any electronics sticking out the side of the cabinet.  I also planned to only have two wires out the back.  One for power, and the other a jack for a network connection (Although I might just go 802.11b, haven't descided yet).  That way it makes it easy to install updates to MAME, OS, Frontend, etc...

Both the Happ sticks are based on the Super and should be good for most any games.  They take a lot of depth below the panel, though.

I'm curious on how much extra room they will need over a standard 8-way.  It might mean the difference of converting a JAMMA cab, or building my own...

[Tiger-Heli]

I wanted to use an actual rotary joystick.  I'm sure the optical is nice since it's a smooth rotation, but I wanted to actually be able to feel the clicks like the LS-30 had on the real cabs.  It's been a while since I've played Heavy Barrel on a real cab, but I can't imagine playing Samauri Showdown on a LS-30 stick...Hence the reason I was leaning towards the Happs style.

That MIGHT get a little disconcerting as a normal joystick will free-spin like the Happ optical, so the clicking of the Happ Mechanical might be unexpected for fighting games.  Overall, though, if you don't mind the cost ($42.00 each for the sticks and $38 for Druin's interface, which is a steal compared to what it used to cost), this is probably the most versatile solution.

<large snip> Hopefully I didn't lose you here.
Nope, followed your logic just fine.  Made lots of sence now that it was explained more in-depth of what the problem was.

Good

Here's an out of scale pic of what I wanted the layout to look like:



I'm shooting for a size somewhat close to Jamma style since I'm considering converting a cab instead of building one, I just need to hit the arcade with a tape measure so I have some real dimensions to work with.  I might just take your suggestion and just use the SNK position "A" buttons for the flipper buttons, that way I don't have any electronics sticking out the side of the cabinet.  I also planned to only have two wires out the back.  One for power, and the other a jack for a network connection (Although I might just go 802.11b, haven't descided yet).  That way it makes it easy to install updates to MAME, OS, Frontend, etc...

If you already have the KE-72, you have plenty of inputs.  If not. . .  You don't need seven distinct buttons per player.  SF-style games only used 6.  You can have the seventh player button share an input with one of the upper row buttons and then remap MAME so it works for the NEO-GEO games.  You also can map the rotary inputs to buttons 7 and 8, or, if you don't have enough inputs for that, you can use two DPDT (Dual Pole Dual Throw) switches to decide whether the buttons or the rotary sticks provide the input.  (I don't know of any rotary joystick games with more than three buttons).

Both the Happ sticks are based on the Super and should be good for most any games.  They take a lot of depth below the panel, though.
I'm curious on how much extra room they will need over a standard 8-way.  It might mean the difference of converting a JAMMA cab, or building my own...

They don't need any extra width.  A Happ Competition requires 2.09 inches below the panel, Happ Supers require 2.64, and a Happ Mechanical Rotary requires about 4.0 inches.  It's probably not a big deal for an arcade cabinet, but it would be for a desktop controller, and I didn't know what you were building.

[Darkstalker]

That MIGHT get a little disconcerting as a normal joystick will free-spin like the Happ optical, so the clicking of the Happ Mechanical might be unexpected for fighting games.  Overall, though, if you don't mind the cost ($42.00 each for the sticks and $38 for Druin's interface, which is a steal compared to what it used to cost), this is probably the most versatile solution.

That is true, but I'm curious on how the optical rotar would work...With the mechanical, there's set pegs that ground out as you turn the joystick.  Now with the optical, wouldn't there be more actuators for the sensor to pick up?  Basically, turning the mechanical rotar 180 degrees nets you 6 clicks, but is it 6 signals to the optical sensor?  That might involve a lot of calibration on the part of MAME to make sure a full 360 on the joystick doesn't result in the sprite rotating 2 or 3 times on screen.

If you already have the KE-72, you have plenty of inputs.  If not. . .  You don't need seven distinct buttons per player.

Ordered it today actually...Snagged two of the breakout cards while I was at it, figured it would make life a lot easier when it comes time to wire the controls up.

They don't need any extra width.  A Happ Competition requires 2.09 inches below the panel, Happ Supers require 2.64, and a Happ Mechanical Rotary requires about 4.0 inches.  It's probably not a big deal for an arcade cabinet, but it would be for a desktop controller, and I didn't know what you were building.

Yea...Sorry, this is going into a cabinet eventually.  I'll probably end up building the control box and applying an overlay first, then building a cabinet to match or modding a JAMMA cabinet if I can't find a good deal (CA Bay Area sucks for getting parts, most companies are in Orange County).  Not sure what I want to do for the monitor, if I want to go the cap kit route or just stick to a standard 19" SVGA.  The purist in me wants the old school RGB monitor, but SVGA is far more versatile in the refresh rate department.  BUT, I won't get into that because that argument is enough to fill a forum on it's own I'm sure

[Tiger-Heli]

That is true, but I'm curious on how the optical rotar would work...With the mechanical, there's set pegs that ground out as you turn the joystick.  Now with the optical, wouldn't there be more actuators for the sensor to pick up?  Basically, turning the mechanical rotar 180 degrees nets you 6 clicks, but is it 6 signals to the optical sensor?  That might involve a lot of calibration on the part of MAME to make sure a full 360 on the joystick doesn't result in the sprite rotating 2 or 3 times on screen.

Optical rotaries work very well.  In fact, there are probably more people on the boards who use them than the SNK and definitely more then use the Happ mechanicals.

As far as the sprite rotating 2 or 3 times for a 360 rotation of the joystick, you have the speed and sensitivity adjustments in MAME, but I think it more comes down to a different style of play.  With a mech, you get used to counting clicks (although I don't think it's exact:  mechs use 12 clicks for a full circle, but IKARI only recognizes 45 degrees of rotation (or 8 clicks), so 4 clicks is probably 180 degrees in IKARI and a full circle on the joystick is probably a full circle plus 180 degrees for the sprite).  Now if you followed that, what I am getting at is I think with a mech you get used to thinking "two clicks left and I'll be pointing south", with opticals you basically just turn the stick until the sprite is facing the desired direction and don't worry about the clicks or even the amount of turning required, since it is not apparent.

Obviously, like setting Arkanoid or Tempest up for the mouse, you don't want it to take a full rotation to move the sprite 45 degrees or for a half rotation to cause the sprite to rotates 4 circles, but I think you can reach acceptable settings with the MAME Analog Controls menu.

Basically, it comes down to personal preference and what really matters to you, and which compromises best suit what you want to achieve.

<large snip>Not sure what I want to do for the monitor, if I want to go the cap kit route or just stick to a standard 19" SVGA.  The purist in me wants the old school RGB monitor, but SVGA is far more versatile in the refresh rate department.  BUT, I won't get into that because that argument is enough to fill a forum on it's own I'm sure

It already has, several times    I'm not going to rehash it here either.