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Author Topic: controller for quadriplegic  (Read 115220 times)

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RetroJames

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #240 on: January 24, 2005, 09:35:35 am »
Update:

The mock-up is nearly complete, pics tommorow

Also, I have drafted my Mother-in-Law's sewing skills.  She and I came up with a rough plan for the beanbag.  It will be removable via velcro and will have baffles inside the overall footprint to keep the beans in line.


Hiub1

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #241 on: January 25, 2005, 08:26:56 pm »
Getting fancy with the beanbags man ;)

Tiger-Heli

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #242 on: January 26, 2005, 07:13:08 am »
Re: Prodigy Joysticks

For the PS2, I don't think a dedicated 4-way is required, but for lots of MAME games it definitely will be.

I can only compare the Prodigies to a PC joystick and the arrow keys, but I can say that I beat or tied my high scores on Time Pilot, Top Gunner and Pac-Man on my first game using these sticks.  Highly recommended for MAME.
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Sean Cp: Updates
« Reply #243 on: January 26, 2005, 09:40:09 am »
Ok some news:

First, David from http://dave.bit2000.com/aki.html has generously offered an AKI analog encoder for this project.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 09:51:24 am by 1hookedspacecadet »

Tiger-Heli

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Re: Sean Cp: Updates
« Reply #244 on: January 26, 2005, 09:46:14 am »
Probably too much for his limited range
of motion.

Kevin[/i]
Point of concern here - I am not sure whether Sean has a limited range of motion as much as limited motor skills and limited fine control.  They are not the same problems and should probably influence the selection of controls.
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RetroJames

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Re: Sean Cp: Updates
« Reply #245 on: January 26, 2005, 10:10:26 am »
Probably too much for his limited range
of motion.

Kevin[/i]
Point of concern here - I am not sure whether Sean has a limited range of motion as much as limited motor skills and limited fine control.

Tiger-Heli

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Re: Sean Cp: Updates
« Reply #246 on: January 26, 2005, 10:25:41 am »
Can you elaborate on the distinction?
Okay, I'm not a doctor, but to my interpretation

Limited range of motion -  I cannot move my arms (fingers, etc.) more than 2 or 3 inches, but they move exactly where I tell them when I tell them to.

Limited motor skills or Limited fine control - Could be either or a combination of:

1)  Sometimes my arm moves forward when I want it to go right, or more likely it moves 5 inches when I meant to move 3 or 3 inches when I meant to move 5.

2)  I can move my fingers and wrist when desired, but I can't move my fingers and wrist together to open a soda bottle, or I can move my left and right arm independently but I can't raise my right arm and lower my left at the same time.

NOTE:  None of this is meant as poking fun at anyone with disabilities, I am just trying to post simplified examples that all might understand.

From what I read of this post, Sean has more fine control than range of motion issues - he said he can scratch his head, for example.

Hope this helps.
It's not what you take when you leave this world behind you, it's what you leave behind you when you go. - R. Travis.
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RetroJames

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #247 on: January 26, 2005, 10:34:45 am »
I think .. and this is all theory ... that the force or pressure is the issue at least for the Prodigy/T-stik choice. 

Can Sean apply enough force or pressure to grip the stick, twist and pull in order to switch from 4way to 8way.  Based on his input to date and the fact that we don't have a t-stik to have him try it is a quesion that at this time cannot be answered. 

On the prodigy however, based on his input and the feedback from Randy T and Kevin Steele as well as Kevin Steele's video reviews of the prodigy, I am 99% certain Sean can operate the switching lever.

Based on SeaMonkey's visit and Sean's comments you pounted out, I think he has decent range of motion, at least enough to operate the joysticks.  I don't think we have really discussed Sean's fine control though and it is not an issue I had considered.  Good points.


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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #248 on: January 26, 2005, 10:48:52 am »
I think .. and this is all theory ... that the force or pressure is the issue at least for the Prodigy/T-stik choice. 
Okay, I like the Prodigies and think they are great sticks for MAME. But in fairness to Sean, let me play devil's advocate here a bit.  From what I remember, Sean said he had good use of his hands/wrists, but limited control of his fingers.

The T-Stik requires the stick to be lifted and twisted, however, gripping the handle requires very little finger control.

The Prodigy requires a lever to be shifted, however the knob (extension) of the lever is fairly thin, and the lever is fairly stiff - not a problem in normal use, but I'm not going to say how easy it would be to activate for a disabled person.

The bottom line is that we really don't know without more information . . .
It's not what you take when you leave this world behind you, it's what you leave behind you when you go. - R. Travis.
When all is said and done, generally much more is SAID than DONE.

RetroJames

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #249 on: January 26, 2005, 11:02:43 am »
Another item I wanted to reintroduce to the discussion is the remapping of controls.

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #250 on: January 26, 2005, 12:52:00 pm »
Another item I wanted to reintroduce to the discussion is the remapping of controls.  I have sent a note to a local electrical engineer for input on this issue and am adding the text of that request below.
I could have told you as much as he said.

Here are your programmable arcade interface issues -

First, the available interfaces are hacked PS2 pad, X-arcade encoder, I-PAC, Keywiz, or some combination (parallel wiring to a hacked PS2 pad and an I-PAC, possibly with a select switch, for example).  Of these I think the hacked pad is probably the best bet, but more details below: 

Playstation2 -  Some games let you re-map controls.  What would be nice is an interface that allows you to remap the controller - i.e. Button 1 is Square, or Button 1 is X, or Button 1 is Circle, etc.  I don't think anyone makes one.  The KeyWiz wouldn't work, the I-PAC has a USB option and the PS2 has a USB port, but I think the I-PAC would be identified as a keyboard and not useable by the PS2, the X-Arcade encoder could work and is programmable, but I think the programmability is only for the keyboard mode for PC gaming.  The desired level of programmability would require probably a custom encoder chip, new software, and a designer intimately familiar with PS2 signal paths and formats.  Even then, you might end up with a programmable PS2 controller that couldn't be used for PC games - - -

MAME - As mentioned, MAME is easily reprogrammed to any keyboard or joystick button, so just about any interface will work.  In the case of the hacked PS, you would be connecting through a USB adapter.

PC Games - While many PC games allow assignable inputs, most are looking at keyboard and not joystick/gamepad interfaces, so the PS2/hack to USB adapter probably won't work.  The only thing that could work for both PC games and PS2 (other than parallel interfaces) would be the X-Arcade, but it has limited PC programability, I don't think it has PS2 programabilty, and I'm less than impressed with it overall.
It's not what you take when you leave this world behind you, it's what you leave behind you when you go. - R. Travis.
When all is said and done, generally much more is SAID than DONE.

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #251 on: January 26, 2005, 12:55:24 pm »
You misunderstood to a degree - the note i posted was what I sent to him, he has not replied.  I was posing the question to him because of his experience in creating the Tokn16 ps/2 keyboard encoder -

"The desired level of programmability would require probably a custom encoder chip, new software, and a designer intimately familiar with PS2 signal paths and formats."

rerstad

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #252 on: January 26, 2005, 02:32:33 pm »
As to the Prodigy/T-Stik, I have both on my cocktail and the T-Stik is a bit difficult to switch, plus you can't tell which mode it's in without lifting and turning to see if you meet resistance.  The mounting plate on the prodigy may be a bit big, but I mounted mine on a metal cp without the plate by drilling the right size hole for the stick and cutting a groove for the switch--cut down on the required space quite a bit.  You could also turn the Prodigy 90 degrees one way or another so the switch is more out of the way of Sean's hands and/or the switch is more accessible.

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #253 on: January 26, 2005, 03:34:08 pm »
Remapping problems:

Playstation remapping: Would be great to find a cure for this. The ideal one would be if all games had the facility to remap controls. Sadly game designers don't realise how useful this is to many disabled gamers. It's also very useful to be able to assign multiple functions to individual buttons. I know of a number of disabled gamers who can only play video pinball games by assigning both flippers to a single switch.

I can only suggest a simple solution, that is far from ideal. You could build a patch bay on the back of the controller. From this a helper could re-wire the controller by using patch leads to suit Sean. Of course - not ideal as Sean can't do this independently.

PC remapping: JoyToKey is a great free utility that allows you to assign key presses to joystick functions. It won't work with every game, but it's a good fix for many: http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA016823/joytokey/english.html

Good luck!

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #254 on: January 26, 2005, 04:33:10 pm »
I believe that any remapping problems faced with the PC can be fixed with software. The PSX or PS2 will be the problem here. Are there any fully programable pads out there for the ps2? This could be what we need, but I am not sure if there are any in existence. This way we would already have any hardware/software needed to do the button remapping. Then again, that would probably be a complicated pad and not sure if it would be very easy to hack.

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #255 on: January 27, 2005, 07:55:51 am »
Just some random thoughts here:

PS2 - Expanding on Skallagrigg's thoughts - I'm not real familiar with it, but it might be possible to come up with some type of 10-position four pole switch which Sean could activate, which would change which input the buttons activate, thereby remapping the controller.  Problems -

There are basically 14 buttons to re-map so the number of permutations to hit any possible combination is pretty unfeasible.

I have only played 7 or 8 PS2 games, but the most used controls overall are probably (in order):

Left Analog Stick
X Button
Circle Button
Triangle Button
L1 Button
R1 Button
Start Button
Square Button
D-pad
Right Analog Stick
L2 Button
R2 Button
L3 Button
R3 Button

And sadly, while the first buttons are the most common ones, many games use all the buttons (or even combinations) for SOME functions.

For PC games, the lack of inputs with a PS2 hack and lack of buttons may be a problem.  I have successfully integrated two Train Simulators with arcade controls (MSTS and TRS2004) and both used every bit of the 32 KeyWiz inputs and all but maybe 10 of the shifted inputs.  Games like Falcon 3.0 use about 40 input keys EACH with Shift, Alt, and Ctrl modifiers, so a total of around 100 inputs.

These are all older or simpler games, so the trend could be worse with newer games.

Counter-point: many of the newer games - like TRS2004 - also make extensive use of mouse controls, so I could get by with less inputs and use the mouse, but it might be difficult for Sean to navigate to the specific point on the screen and click and drag the mouse in a timely manner . . .
It's not what you take when you leave this world behind you, it's what you leave behind you when you go. - R. Travis.
When all is said and done, generally much more is SAID than DONE.

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #256 on: January 27, 2005, 08:50:54 am »
Minor update:

Wife absconded with digital camera today, no pics 'till  tonight. 

Got the joysticks in postion and at the correct height based on Happs and RandyT's input (2.50" from cp to joystick top(s)). 

I had to move the sticks about 1" apart and 1" forward (away from Sean) in order to compensate for the Prodigy 5" square and Happs 6" square mounting plates.  It looks good and feels ok though, hopefully it will not cause any issues.




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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #257 on: January 27, 2005, 09:31:50 am »
You could also turn the Prodigy 90 degrees one way or another so the switch is more out of the way of Sean's hands and/or the switch is more accessible.

That's a very good point.

-S
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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #258 on: January 27, 2005, 11:07:27 am »
I dunno if this would be helpful in the ability to remap controls, but there is a controller called Gamester FPS Master.

It has a little LCD screen, and allows you to remap any of its buttons to a different one, and it has storage for 3 preset configurations.

I dunno how hard it would be to hack this for arcade controller use. I have an Xbox version in which the right trigger physically broke. I can take it apart, and snap some pictures of its internals if there is some interest. The customization options it offers are pretty excellent.




Hiub1

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #259 on: January 27, 2005, 07:01:03 pm »
Tiger-Heli: It seems that Sean is able to use a computer to some extent from his posts on here. If you think about it, all the games you mentioned are either turn based or strategy games, and they do not require very fast actions or movements. Obviously they do require a good number of buttons or keys, so that would most likely not work with the controller we are designing. I am not entirely sure since I have never met Sean, but it seems that he would be more interested in using this controller to play action or sports games, where quick button presses and movements are needed. It would seem pointless to use this controller with a game that requires key presses and the use of a mouse. Building on your theory, it would be possible to use a 4 port DB25 switch to switch between 4 key configurations. This wouldn't be the best way to go about doing this, but at least it would allow us to have 4 custom maps for the buttons. It would not be too hard to implement either, but it does have its limitations.

Thank you all for the input, it is really helping this project materialize.

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #260 on: January 27, 2005, 09:52:42 pm »
I too have been following this thread with great interest for personal reasons, my son Kevin is disabled and will benefit from the ideas collected here.  Keep in mind however that Sean's original request is for a Playstation 2 adapted controller using arcade style controls (see Sean's post #1), not a PC or Arcade/M.A.M.E. controller.
All input is respected and appreciated, just keep the original project in mind, helping us to keep focus on the project at hand.  One set of needs and project at a time. 
Hopefully this will be the beginning of various projects, all aiming to help those with different abilities be able to participate in what many of us take for granted, and that's enjoying gaming!   ;D  Thanks All, Respectfully, ARCADIAC!

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Re: controller for quadriplegic - Mockup Pics
« Reply #261 on: January 27, 2005, 09:53:32 pm »

Ok, got the digicam back -


Pic 1: You can see the original position of the joysticks (small circles) and of course the new positions


Pic 2: Front of the cp is 5" high, rear is 4" high.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2005, 09:56:46 pm by 1hookedspacecadet »

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Re: controller for quadriplegic - More Mockup Pics
« Reply #262 on: January 27, 2005, 09:54:05 pm »


I need to add a small lip around the edges as we will have a 1/4" to 1/2" protrusion around the top of the cp with t-molding

Obviously there is a ways to go, I had to sort out the sticks first as everything else really depends on thier positions
« Last Edit: January 27, 2005, 09:58:25 pm by 1hookedspacecadet »

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Re: controller for quadriplegic - More Mockup Pics
« Reply #263 on: January 27, 2005, 09:54:44 pm »
Pic 1: In case you were wondering, that's a good example of that "new trigonometry" you have been hearing about.


Pic 2: Those blue bushings on the joysticks are specialty parts from Happs, email me if you need the part numbers.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2005, 10:05:38 pm by 1hookedspacecadet »

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #264 on: January 27, 2005, 09:55:14 pm »

These pics show templates for the GGG prodigy and happs analog mounting plates and should illustrate why the sticks had to be moved.

The happs analog has an ultimate style handle, but the prodigy is the euro style.  I only did this on one side of the mockup as I only have one spare handle in that ultimate style.

Randy T at GGG actually has new retro balltop sticks comming out, but I want to go with the "euro" tops as that will make both sticks the same height.


« Last Edit: January 27, 2005, 10:04:20 pm by 1hookedspacecadet »

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #265 on: January 27, 2005, 10:08:47 pm »
I too have been following this thread with great interest for personal reasons, my son Kevin is disabled and will benefit from the ideas collected here.

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #266 on: January 27, 2005, 10:18:46 pm »
That is great progress man! I am very exited to get the ball rolling on this!

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #267 on: January 27, 2005, 10:29:53 pm »
That is great progress man! I am very exited to get the ball rolling on this!

I feel we are gaining on the crest of this hump, soon we will be picking up speed.

I really wish I could be showing something a bit more slick, like the mockup made out of toothpicks or something, but it is very difficult to do this considering baby.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2005, 10:36:53 pm by 1hookedspacecadet »

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #268 on: January 27, 2005, 10:34:07 pm »
Great progress James and Co., keep up the good work, "show-off!"   :o  ARCADIAC!

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #269 on: January 28, 2005, 09:57:39 am »
The mockup looks good. My only concern would be weight. At this point has anyone made an estimate of what the final CP will weigh? Does Sean have enough upper body strength to be able to lift it unassisted? It would kind of stink if he had to get help to get it on his lap, and off again for breaks. This is only speculation, since I don't know if it's really even a concern, for all I know Sean can lift a Buick over his head. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

-S
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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #270 on: January 28, 2005, 10:11:20 am »
The mockup looks good. My only concern would be weight. At this point has anyone made an estimate of what the final CP will weigh? Does Sean have enough upper body strength to be able to lift it unassisted? It would kind of stink if he had to get help to get it on his lap, and off again for breaks. This is only speculation, since I don't know if it's really even a concern, for all I know Sean can lift a Buick over his head. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

-S

We dont have a good idea on that issue though I have been thinking about it.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2005, 10:38:59 am by 1hookedspacecadet »

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #271 on: January 28, 2005, 11:16:03 am »
Great work that is looking fantastic.. I can see why the wieght would be an issue maybe something like this could work.


http://altura.speedera.net/ccimg.catalogcity.com/210000/213600/213651/Products/6314903.jpg


The only issue would be I think having casters that you could lock down so it wouldnt move around.

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #272 on: January 28, 2005, 12:01:35 pm »
Anyone see my post about the control remapping?


This thread seemed to have jumped a lot from that post rather quickly. :)




RetroJames

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #273 on: January 28, 2005, 12:03:11 pm »
Anyone see my post about the control remapping?


This thread seemed to have jumped a lot from that post rather quickly. :)





Yes, it is still a ball in play.

versapak

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #274 on: January 28, 2005, 12:14:47 pm »
Yeah, I was referring to this post I made after that one. :)

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,28718.msg263818.html#msg263818

I guess it did get lost in the suffle. heheh


RetroJames

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #275 on: January 28, 2005, 01:22:28 pm »
oops, might have.  yes pics wuld be cool if you can.

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #276 on: January 29, 2005, 12:53:54 pm »
That Xbox controller may just be the answer.  It's got the exact same number of buttons and types of control sticks that the PS2 has.  Also there's an adapter available that lets you play your PS2 with your Xbox controller.  In the MAME aspect, there's also a Xbox to USB adapter commercially available.  From what I know about Xbox controller modding, there's the exact same number of wires in a Xbox controller cable as there are in a USB cable and they correspond with the same colors (Xbox controller is a USB based controller with a built in USB hub) so in the BYO spirit we could fashion one ourselves :)

versapak

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #277 on: January 29, 2005, 02:58:27 pm »
There is a PS2 version of that controller also, so no conversion will be necessary, other than to play on PC.


I will get some pictures of its insides up tonight. It is definitely one MF to take apart. heh



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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #278 on: January 29, 2005, 03:04:31 pm »
Tiger-Heli: It seems that Sean is able to use a computer to some extent from his posts on here.
Sean uses a computer with voice-recognition software, so his abilitly to press rapid button games is questionable (no offense intended)
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If you think about it, all the games you mentioned are either turn based or strategy games, and they do not require very fast actions or movements.
Not sure which games you mean, the PC games I mentioned were Simulations.  MAME seems easier for me to control and seems like it would logically be easier for Sean to master.  The PS2 games I was referring to (I didn't list them) are sports games - NFL 2K5, (not sure of the other titles, NBA 2K something, MLB 2K something, Strike force bowling, several car racing games).  Of these, most require almost all the buttons on the controller for some actions.  Bowling requires the least, but it still uses the left analog stick, d-pad, start, and two buttons.
Quote
Building on your theory, it would be possible to use a 4 port DB25 switch to switch between 4 key configurations. This wouldn't be the best way to go about doing this, but at least it would allow us to have 4 custom maps for the buttons. It would not be too hard to implement either, but it does have its limitations.
That's an idea, although it seems like the project may be leaning toward that FPS controller now . . .
It's not what you take when you leave this world behind you, it's what you leave behind you when you go. - R. Travis.
When all is said and done, generally much more is SAID than DONE.

versapak

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #279 on: January 30, 2005, 10:42:59 am »
Sorry it took me so long to get this up.



The RED tags are the control remapping buttons, and the YELLOW tags are the actual controls.

Other than the fact that it is not all on one tidy PCB, it looks like it would be extremely easy to hack for arcade controls.




Follow this link for the high res view:
http://ldgonzales.home.comcast.net/fps_master.jpg


[EDIT]
Upon further inspection, it looks like all the extension PCB's could be removed, as all they are is something hard for the controllers buttons to press against. Could easily just put the arcade buttons to the wires going to them instead, so I guess it would be one tidy PCB. :)

« Last Edit: January 30, 2005, 10:57:54 am by versapak »