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Author Topic: controller for quadriplegic  (Read 69661 times)

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seanwheels

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controller for quadriplegic
« on: December 09, 2004, 08:23:42 pm »
hello,Seanwheels here I am a quadriplegic I posted here a couple weeks back asking for information or assistance I am willing to pay someone for parts time and trouble of assisting me to build an arcade type controller for my Place station I can used arcade type joysticks and   I can use arcade type buttons. I have a Sony Play station until and the controllers are just too small for me to use them if I could build to a larger version proximal for 20 in. long by 9 in. wide the joysticks located approximately 8in from each side with two buttons of located on each side with 4 buttons located on each side of each Joy stick in a pattern similar to the human hand standing on edge on top of the joystick platform before I was injured by was a fabricator and machinist for Titan motorcycle company before that I was a stage rigger ido understand mechanics and if I had functional use of my hands I could build what I need  but if that was the case then I would not need 1  right if  any 1 of the members of this forum has the expertise that I need to complete this project I really would appreciate your assistance if I could do it myself I would unfortunately I'm kinda short on family and the maintenance man in the nursing-home and I am currently stuck in was not mechanically inclined enough to attach my play station to  my television. Seanwheels  Sean2U@ peoplepc.com

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2004, 09:32:40 pm »
Hi Sean!  Welcome to the board!

Post your location, perhaps someone nearby can help you with things you may need.

RetroJames

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2004, 10:51:15 pm »

Sean,

Welcome to the board!  I am going to see if I can sketch something based on your description to see if I understand what you are thinking about.  We're gonna get this sorted out.  It would help to know where you are located too.   

RetroJames

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2004, 11:56:40 pm »
So working off this description,

"a larger version proximal for 20 in. long by 9 in. wide"

"the joysticks located approximately 8in from each side"

"two buttons of located on each side"

"4 buttons located on each side of each Joy stick  -

in a pattern similar to the human hand standing on edge on top of the joystick platform"

I threw something together with visio to see if this is what you are looking for or something similar.  Are you looking for something more like the PS2 controller itself?

I put in two different button layouts as I am having a hard time understanding, "...human hand standing on edge on top of the joystick platform"

Take a look and let me know what needs to be changed.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2004, 12:04:52 am by 1hookedspacecadet »

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2004, 11:30:42 am »
May I suggest overlaying a GRID (1 inch squares) on top of your diagram, and then labelling each line across the top with letters (A, B, C...) then label the lines down the side with numbers (1, 2, 3...) This way Sean can more easily describe where parts need to be moved and how far.

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2004, 12:43:34 pm »
I'd be willing to help out if needed.

Check out infogrip.com, they have a couple of different types of switches and buttons for this situation.

RetroJames

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2004, 12:54:42 pm »
Good suggestion.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2004, 01:26:19 pm by 1hookedspacecadet »

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2004, 01:17:41 pm »
I also checked out x-arcade's site.  They have an adapter for $19 that will port the x-arcade products to PS2.

http://www.x-arcade.com/adapters.shtml

http://www.x-arcade.com/two-player.shtml

Not sure if the x-arcade layouts will be ok though.

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2004, 01:29:23 pm »
But there's no analog stick support on an X-Arcade is there? That makes it pretty well useless for most PS2 games. I think I have maybe one PS2 game that you can play without analog sticks.

-S
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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2004, 02:58:47 pm »
But there's no analog stick support on an X-Arcade is there? That makes it pretty well useless for most PS2 games. I think I have maybe one PS2 game that you can play without analog sticks.

-S


Can you explain to me what the difference is?  I have always had a hard time understanding what exactly the analog issue is all about.  I suppose now is as good a time as any for some schooling.

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2004, 03:12:09 pm »
Can you explain to me what the difference is?  I have always had a hard time understanding what exactly the analog issue is all about.  I suppose now is as good a time as any for some schooling.

A digital interface has an on/off approach, whereas an analog interface has a gradual approach.

If you play, say, Pole Position, and you use a digital pad to steer left, the wheel will be *hard* left, and you'll cut off the road.  With an analog control, you can use either a little or a lot of force to steer.

Stingray

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2004, 03:15:21 pm »
Which of course brings us to the inevitable question, are there any arcade size analog sticks that can be used in place of the analog sticks on a PS2 controler for a project of this kind? Unless I'm mistaken, the only sticks out there that might work are pretty expensive. Has anyone actually done this?

-S
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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2004, 03:58:22 pm »
I found this link to a ps2 - > arcade controller hack.  I assumed if I were to build a controller I would have to sacrifice a couple ps2 controllers.  Take a look and let me know what you think. 

http://wrongcrowd.com/arcade/joystickp1.shtml

Don't forget to look at the title of the page that came up.  I did a double-take when I first found the article... ::)



RetroJames

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2004, 04:01:26 pm »
Also, check this out.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2004, 04:03:19 pm by 1hookedspacecadet »

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2004, 04:36:10 pm »
I think the controller you found is a 2 player controller.  Unless I am mistaken, the controller seanwheels is looking for has 2 joysticks for 1 player.

I don't know much about analog controls, but can someone explain how they could be emulated digitally?
"I believe that every individual is naturally entitled to do as he pleases with himself and the fruits of his labor, so far as it in no way interferes with any other men's rights."
Abraham Lincoln

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2004, 04:52:36 pm »
I believe this person has limited gross motor skills in his arms but not fine motor controls, if I am recalling correctly.
--- John St.Clair
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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2004, 05:17:16 pm »
Not to seem rude
Last I checked, I had thought it was rude to call someone a liar, and rip on the guy saying he's "pretending to be paralyzed" just to get a controller to use for his ps2.  Just to check where would he get a controller for this, sony? Sony could most likley care less about any of their customers, including those with special needs. So it seems the most obvious place to go for help with this would be.........
THE BUILD YOUR OWN ARCADE CONTROLS WEBSITE!

Not cool man, Not cool.

<edit> Sorry had to add additional venting. <edit>
« Last Edit: December 10, 2004, 07:29:51 pm by Shape D. »
Hey Baby, Have you ever met a Newbie with 38 pages of previous posts before? Do you Want to?

mozzer

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2004, 05:53:07 pm »
Quote
I apologize for this letter ahead of time, I just want the writer to realize that he doesnt need to pretend to be a quadreplegic to get people to help him, and to do something like that is just wrong.


You're going to feel like such an ass if he calls you out. Actually you should allready feel that way

RetroJames

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2004, 06:26:20 pm »

I'm in the xmas spirit and am taking Sean at his word, but I do understand your concern.  Some quick homework tells me his classification, from an earlier post, indicates he has a more advanced range of motor abilities than you might think.


(Earlier Post) ----

/ Consoles / controller for quadriplegic  on: November 24, 2004, 01:48:18 AM 

hello, my name is Sean McCloskey.  I am a C-5-6 incomplete quadriplegic I recently purchased a Sony Play Station2 unfortunately I cannot use the controller successfully I have use of my Arms and limited use of my hands I do not have fine motor control needed to push the buttons and use the joysticks simultaneously do you know of a comptroller I can use so that I may game successfully thank you for any help or suggestions you may have . Sean McCloskey- Sean2U@peoplepc.com

(End Earlier Post) ----



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More on motor skills of someone classified as a 'C-5-6 incomplete quadriplegic '
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



http://www.asia-spinalinjury.org/publications/index.html

ASIA Impairment Scale

The ASIA Impairment Scale uses the findings from the neurological examination to categorize injury types into specific categories. These categories allow researchers to identify the outcome of different injuries and degrees of spinal cord damage.

The following scale is used in grading the degree of impairment:

A = Complete. No sensory or motor function is preserved in the sacral segments S4-S5.
B =Incomplete. Sensory but not mr function is preserved below the neurological level and extends through the sacral segments S4-S5.
C = Incomplete. Motor function is preserved below the neurological level, and the majority of key muscles below the neurological level have a muscle grade less than 3.
D = Incomplete. Motor function is preserved below the neurological level, and the majority of key muscles below the neurological level have a muscle grade greater than or equal to 3.
E = Normal. Sensory and motor function are normal.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.spinalcord.org/html/factsheets/spin.php


The level of injury is very helpful in predicting what parts of the body might be affected by paralysis and loss of function. Remember that in incomplete injuries there will be some variation in these prognoses. Cervical (neck) injuries usually result in quadriplegia. Injuries above the C-4 level may require a ventilator for the person to breathe. C-5 injuries often result in shoulder and biceps control, but no control at the wrist or hand. C-6 injuries generally yield wrist control, but no hand function. Individuals with C-7 and T-1 injuries can straighten their arms but still may have dexterity problems with the hand and fingers.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Will

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2004, 06:43:41 pm »
Why would someone make this up Amra?The guy needs help because of his condition,he isnt looking for a handout and even offered to pay.Just because you know the difference between the word quad and pari doesnt make you an expert on his condition.He obviously likes to play video games but cannot because of the size of the ps2 controller.If I had the skills I would help build this for him.I personally would throw some money into a paypal account to help fund this project if it would help get it started.Just my 2 cents..

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2004, 06:50:55 pm »
Not to seem rude or anything, but what good would one of these systems do for a real quadraplegic?

Man, that was real harsh.

stevejt

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2004, 07:35:08 pm »
Hey Sean. Welcome To The Board! I am in NY, and would be happy to help if I am near you.  It seems like alot of other people want to help too.  If for any reason you are uncomfortable with posting on the board, or you think it just might be easier, you can get an individuals email address by clicking on their name, (most anyway).  You already can see who wants to help.  I am sure the people that want to help would be happy to communicate with each other "off board" to help you if for any reason you think that might be easier.  I am also sure you can realize that some people are just used to getting scammed online.  There are alot of people that pretend to be something they are not. 



Steve

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2004, 07:53:21 pm »
First off, Welcome to the board Sean!  Post when you can, you will be helping others here I guarantee it.  As you can see, most of us here are good folks willing to help where we can.  And the few insensitive idiots just don't matter, f'em!!
My son (a quadraplegic with cerebral palsy) loves to play videogames too.  We have had no success in finding an arcade joystick that fully emulates the PS/PS2 gamepad completely. 
The problem is that even when a stick is found that will emulate digital (the cross shaped control) and analog (the 2 dual joysticks) it will be a switchable type, single joystick.  Meaning that you can use either/or but not both at the same time, making it impossible to play most PS games that don't allow button customization for changing the movement, aiming controls etc. 
Get out a regular arcade stick and try to play Killzone and you'll see what I mean, forget it, doesn't work. 
A possible solution would require 3 sticks, 1 for the cross-shaped digital pad, and 2 for the dual analog joysticks, in a similar configuration as the PS2 pad pictured in a previous post.  But on a larger scale and including all the other buttons for the r1, r2, l1, l2, start, select etc., making it easier for a person who has difficulty using small, closely placed buttons due to a disability.
BTW, I wrote Sony regarding the possibility of adapting controllers or supporting games that support better configuration options.  Got a form letter back stating essentially that any unsolicited ideas submitted to Sony would then become their property, implying that they would use them without compensation or consideration.  Pretty much a corporate FU.
Much respect to those here who are looking to find solutions for this man, you will also help others, keep us in mind as this solution progresses.
LMK if I can be of assistance.
Also bear in mind that people who are disabled live on a very meager income, most times less than $600 a month, most all of it going for living expenses.  So expensive solutions may not be easy for Sean, help out as you see fit.
ARCADIAC!

Sidenote to AMRA:  I've never called out anyone on this board for their comments before but your mean-spirited, ignorant remarks are by far the most offensive that I have ever seen here, bar none.  Amra, keep in mind that being disabled is a minority that ANYONE can join at anytime through no fault of their own. Keep your prejudice and assumptions to yourself, your offensive comments were totally uncalled for.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2004, 08:38:52 pm by Arcadiac »

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2004, 08:49:37 pm »
If someone can build a solution that will help Sean, I will fork out up to $100 towards expenses. The caveat is you have to document it so we can help the next person in this situation.

--- saint
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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2004, 08:51:21 pm »
Quote
keep in mind that being disabled is a minority that ANYONE can join at anytime through no fault of their own.

Wise Words...

mmmPeanutButter

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2004, 09:07:27 pm »
If someone can build a solution that will help Sean, I will fork out up to $100 towards expenses.
--- saint

I guess that's why they call you saint.   :angel:

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2004, 09:13:38 pm »
This might be a shot in the dark, but I can see this in my mind, and it might work.

RetroJames

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2004, 09:20:17 pm »


Regarding the analog issue, it sounds as if we just need an arcade style or at least size analog joystick to hack to the ps/2 controller.  What about PC joysticks?  What do the Jakks games use?  Analog?

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2004, 09:22:29 pm »
Sean, I'm in Oklahoma. If by any chance you live here or even in an adjacent state feel free to email me at stingrayg4@gmail.com and we can talk about options for game controls that I might be able to build for you. I don't know if I can build you a PS2 controller or not. Considering that no one replied to my query quoted below regarding analog sticks I'd guess that I can't.


Which of course brings us to the inevitable question, are there any arcade size analog sticks that can be used in place of the analog sticks on a PS2 controler for a project of this kind? Unless I'm mistaken, the only sticks out there that might work are pretty expensive. Has anyone actually done this?


However having said that, if you're interested in having a controller that will work with a game system that doesn't use analog controls (pretty much anything before the N64/ PSX era)I'd be willing to build one for you on the house based on your particular needs.

I'd even be willing to build you a MAME system, but since those can get a bit expensive I'd probably need a some financial backing on that.

On the subject of financial backing, if anyone does know of a way to build the PS2 controller that Sean was origianally inquiring about I'd be more than willing to throw some money in that pot.

-S
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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2004, 09:23:00 pm »
This might be a shot in the dark, but I can see this in my mind, and it might work.

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2004, 11:10:09 pm »
First of all Sean welcome to the boards.

Second Saint can we get Amras message deleted. The more times I go through this Post the madder I get.
**edit**

Thank you mods.

Amra I don't know how old you are or what your thinking making that post.  But all respect is lost.  The guy said he would pay for it. I don't know what kind of hand outs your thinking of but I see this community building things for its members all the time(for money and mostly not for money) the ideas that people have and share on this board is amazing not counting all the time it takes them to work on them and then just give them away.  I feel sad for you man really sad, it hurts.
<venting done>

To the real issue on hand

Saint I'm with you Ill give money if needed.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2004, 02:48:49 pm by walls83 »
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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2004, 01:49:51 am »
The Dreamcast Alloy Arcade stick is essentially the same as this version for PS/PS2:
« Last Edit: December 11, 2004, 11:42:42 am by Arcadiac »

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2004, 02:11:02 am »
I kind of figured the stick wouldnt work in one of the reviews I was reading it said it was an analog digital 8-way(which doesnt make since to me). What about AUTO FIRE?  Would that be useful?  Also about the track ball for the second joystick since most games that use the second joystick are for looking around.  I didnt even think about durablity its not really a major issue as long as you know it has to be dealt with.  You could just make sure that when you cut the holes for the joystick that they are exactly the radius of the limits of the joystick and the base is very firmly attached.  So if such an occurance does take place the joystick has the wood to help stop and take some of the pressure off of the base of the joystick.
"A true warrior enters the arena with all his powers at the ready." ~ Gouki

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2004, 04:32:43 am »
hello everyone THANK YOU for the many varied responses while I did not expect to be taken at face value I did not expect to be accused of being a liar since I did not have he opportunity to read that particular post but as I have read every one else's posts I get the gist of the accusation. Here is my response

I am the 35 year-old man currently residing in a nursing home. I have broken my neck Not once but 3 times in the last 4 years. My 1st accident was December 2nd of 1999 on my way home from work I rolled my vehicle I fell asleep at the wheel 27 days later I awoke and hospital with 3 of My x girls friends were standing around I' tried to get out of bed to go work on my motorcycle funny, on waking all I wanted to do was to go work, motorcycle I didn't realize I was paralyzed the doctor came in and I was told I would never walk again.

While being transferred in the hospital I was dropped while I still had my halo on and my neck rebroken at that point I lost the fine motor skills in my left hand I was then transferred to  good Samaritan Hospital here in Phoenix Arizona for the remainder of my physical therapy. June 6 2002 my caregiver spent most of the the day packing my belongings and loading them into my van I had acquired a old 1 ton Chevy  Pathfinder van and 1 of my buddies got me a lift to put on it.It was late in the evening but my caregiver said she was a good to drive so we sat out for Glendale Arizona so I could start going to college. 

Well we made it as far as Happy Valley Road she fell asleep I realized this as we hit another vehicle.  The driver was ejected on the 1st roll through the windshield she hit the side of the road in brokeher pinky and hit her head I rolled another 600 ft. with everything that I own was in the van .because I had been mechanic/fabricator the things  I owned were heavy and steel my floor safe and 16  HP Briggs Stratton were laying next to me on the floor then I had a Wankle( rotary) motor laying by my legs on the floor. 

After the accident 4 truckdrivers stop and they said they heard me screaming get me out from inside the burning vehicle I don't remember none of this but I do have the police report and they dug their way into my wreck and pulled out my body thus saving my life.  as the vehicle burned to the ground I awoke in John C. Lincoln Hospital approximately 30 days later from the coma my neck wasbroken at C 123 and 4

the doctor went in operated on it but didn't believe I was going to live so he didn't bother putting a halo on me my skull was broken in the front and back  both eyesockets broke and had to reattach my nose to my face along with 1 of my Ears along with the ribs on the left side my body and my left ankle the doctor did go ahead and pull pins in my left ankle at least he was an optimist.

you would think this would be the end it but 6 months ago I was living in apartments by myself with a caregiver that would come and visit me every day to give me what I needed.  I unfortunately developed a bed sore and needed to be transported to the wound clinic for treatment.  The ambulance driver came to pick me up 1 day and on the way to the ambulance pushed my stretcher over and-bashed my head in causing the nerves and my neck to swell and causing my upper body to be completely paralyzed for about a week I spent the next 4 months in Mesa in banner desert TCU getting physical therapy. 

Now I am in a nursing home working on getting myself out of here at age 35 I feel I'm too young to spend my life in a nursing home unfortunately the state of Arizona feels otherwise as far as income is concerned my Social Security is taking away from me and they give me al lowance of $30.00 a month to live on.  So I will not turn away anyone who feels out to sending a few dollars to a trust fund for this project but asking for a handout was not my objective . 

The name of the nursing home .i live-in is called Desert sky it is located at **** ******* ******* **** I know you can get a copy of the above mentioned accident reports from the Arizona Department of Public Safety as well as 8x10 color glossies I have not been able to afford the pictures of the accidents so after u check them  out  I would appreciate it if you could send me a few copies. 

Thank you for your support everyone and l will try to answer the responses as I go down the list.  as to the allegations if if you feel my response is a all loan or hard to believe I believe all the facts are on public record.  Thank you Sean


Edit: added paragraphs for easier reading

Edit: Address removed
« Last Edit: December 14, 2004, 11:15:47 am by Peale »

Pacific Ripper

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2004, 05:08:20 am »
Sorry to hear about your accident and the situation that you are in. I don't know if you believe in God, but you will have a prayer from me. I'm sure I am not the only one who'll do that around here. I'll send something your way - I don't know if it'll help because I know it may not be enough as consolation for your predicament.

stevejt

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2004, 11:38:28 am »
Hey Sean.  As you can see, alot of people want to help.  BUt we all need to know a little about what you want built.  I don't think we understood your first post describing the human hand standing on edge on top of the joystick platform.  We also might have some good suggestions if we knew exactly what motor control you have.  Any particular games you are looking to use this for, that might make some slight differences, (possibly).  I really hope someone here can make something that works for you. 

Steve

dweebs0r

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2004, 12:04:17 pm »
Ok folks, heres the deal.  We have an idea to build a controller.  We have $100.00 (from Saint).  Now we need someone with the skills to step forward:

Number one:

someone needs to step forward and say the have the skills and the time to do this

Number two:

that same person should set aside a paypal account for donations towards this project (its Christmas time people time to give!)

Number three:

although I dont have skills with a woodsaw, I can effectively manipulate HTML  :)
so whoever builds the project, if they take pictures, and document on paper or whatever, I can happily create the webpage documentation that saint requested.  I will also donate some cash to the project

So, who here can build it?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2004, 12:10:04 pm by dweebs0r »

stevejt

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2004, 12:21:04 pm »
I think first we more detailed information from sean.  I was not the only one that didn't understand the hand on edge thing.  This has to be perfectly suited to his needs.  It has to have the same measurements as his hand and fingers.  It needs to be funtional, and comfortable.  Throwing something together with out enough of the correct information to help- might not help at all.  Without knowing exactly what he needs, we don't know exactly what skills we need.  I am sure there are hundreds of people here that can drill holes in a flat panel.  That might not be what best works here.  Please read my above post about my idea.  I think that might be what we need here.  If sean agrees that is a whole new set of skills.  I took an empty mouse I have and slapped it on a joystick handle, it seemed like it might be enough.  Maybe not.  Perhaps I can carve something more accurate out of wood.  Maybe we something no one has thought of yet.  But we wont know without more details from sean.  And I think that if something was thrown together without those details and sent to him, that he might not have the heart to say "sorry, I can't use it, try another one".

Steve

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2004, 12:38:28 pm »
...with 4 buttons located on each side of each Joy stick in a pattern similar to the human hand standing on edge on top of the joystick platform

I wonder if Sean means that it would be uncomfortable or not possible, due to limited wrist movement or whatever, to rest his hands flat on the control panel to hit the horizontally oriented buttons that would be on a typical CP, or to keep swapping back and forth from this hand position to holding the joystick.

So the placement of the buttons should accomodate the fact that his hand will be resting on it's side on top of the panel (as when gripping the joysticks) - the buttons would therefore be oriented vertically on some sort of raised section of the panel behind the sticks,  Imagine gripping a joystick,  then releasing it and extending your fingers -  not turning your wrist 90 degrees afterwards to rest your fingers on the control panel - that's where I think he wants the buttons.

Or I could be way off...

I have the DIY skills of a house brick, incidentally, plus I'm several thousand miles away,  but I'd happily make a paypal donation or whatever to the project, and  provide artworking skills (drawing up templates in Illustrator, making CPO graphics etc).



RetroJames

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Re: controller for quadriplegic
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2004, 12:49:53 pm »
Let's get the design figured out first.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2004, 12:54:42 pm by 1hookedspacecadet »

  
 

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