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1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
Dartful Dodger:
--- Quote from: shmokes on August 25, 2004, 09:23:42 am ---
--- Quote from: fogman on August 25, 2004, 07:26:01 am ---The Constitution of the US does not define an African American as "3/5 of a person".
--- End quote ---
That's absurd. The were considered property. You make it sound like the northern states considered them lower than the southern states. The only reason the northern states wanted them to not be counted is because the southern states wouldn't allow them to vote. It's a little bit ridiculous to count them for purposes of representation if they couldn't even participate in voting for the person who was suposedly going to represent them.
Black people were completely dehumanized. They were not considered people. You might notice that white women, who were also not allowed to vote, were counted as whole people. To suggest that the consideration of blacks as inferior to whites was not a core American value in 1776 is ridiculous. George Washington was probably the largest slaveholder in the country. It was perfectly okay to kidnap thousands of people and enslave them. It was not illegal to beat, rape or kill them. The Civil War wasn't even fought until nearly a hundred years later and we still had legally segregated schools, many of the black schools having no running water, nearly two hundred years later.
It's meaningless to say, "Well, the Constitution doesn't say the ARE 3/5 of a person. It only says we will COUNT them as 3/5 of a person." It's the same thing.
--- End quote ---
Since the African American slavery and the North South thing was brought up....
The Confederate states went through all the proper channels to succeed from the Union, but that nutcase Lincoln decided to take the U.S. into an unjust war against the South. Back then they killed him, today he is an American hero. I'm just glad I'm smart enough to appreciate Bush as the hero he is now. Don't worry, your kids' kids will learn and accept how great of man Bush was.
fogman:
Shmokes,
As I said, I was not arguing the point nor was I saying that at the time America was not incredulously racist. The only point I was making is that they were defined as 3/5 of a person solely for counting representatives. As a matter of fact, I was going to make reference to the point that the government did not consider them to be people at all, but thought my post was too long. I was only trying to point out the historical inaccuracy that they were defined by the Constitution as 3/5 of a person.
My point with mentioning the North was exactly yours...the Northern free states did not want them to be counted, not because they were more racist than the south, but because they were less. I thought it was clear, but sometimes what I write is clear to me but murky to others.
Believe me, I think racism was the worst example of man's inhumanity to man. As Thomas Jefferson wrote regarding slavery, "Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just".
Peace.
shmokes:
--- Quote from: Dartful Dodger on August 25, 2004, 11:54:42 am ---Since the African American slavery and the North South thing was brought up....
The Confederate states went through all the proper channels to succeed from the Union, but that nutcase Lincoln decided to take the U.S. into an unjust war against the South. Back then they killed him, today he is an American hero. I'm just glad I'm smart enough to appreciate Bush as the hero he is now. Don't worry, your kids' kids will learn and accept how great of man Bush was.
--- End quote ---
The proper channels? There weren't any proper channels. Read the Constitution. Seriously -- it's short. It will take you all of half an hour to read the whole thing.
Their rebellion against the federal government may have been justified (that's a matter of opinion), but it was certainly illegal. While reading, pay particular attention to Article I Section 10, Article 4 Section 3, and Article 6 (6 is probably the most relevant to this discussion).
Edit: Here I'll help out:
Excerpt from Article 6 of the Constitution:
Clause 2: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
shmokes:
--- Quote from: fogman on August 25, 2004, 12:14:47 pm ---Shmokes,
As I said, I was not arguing the point nor was I saying that at the time America was not incredulously racist. The only point I was making is that they were defined as 3/5 of a person solely for counting representatives.
--- End quote ---
Sorry Fogman...I get pretty fired up and defensive. Still, I think you are largely wrong. First, if they were considered people, rather than property, they would never have been defined as 3/5 of a person for any purpose, representation or anything else (and "solely for counting representatives" undervalues representation in a democracy in my opinion -- it seems like a pretty important thing to me).
I think we agree that considering blacks inferior to whites was a core American value, shared by most at the time. We are only quibbling about how explicit the Constitution was about it. I bring up the constitution because if it weren't for the racist core value, the three-fifths clause would never have made it into the constitution at all. And to define them as 3/5 of a person is to define them as 3/5 of a person, whether it's for counting representatives or because you're going to eat them for dinner. Either way they are marginalized by the constitution.
Dartful Dodger:
You are wrong, any state can succeed from the union at any time as long as they do it by the book, which they did back then, and Arizona threatened to do a few years ago when Clinton started getting gun grab happy.
...and also I'd like to add...
France was against the American Army from attacking the South, they even helped the confederate army.
Long Live Bush and GOD bless America!