I learned Kerry stands firmly for...

[DrewKaree]

 

[MasTequila]

Go to johnkerry.com and read under plans.

[APFelon]

Go to johnkerry.com and read under plans.

1. Build a huge orbiting space station
2. Put a large raygun on the space station
3. Demand one BIIIIIIIIIILLION dollars
4. Don't forget to feed the sharks with the lasers on their backs
5. Pick up a gallon of milk at the grocery store

That's it! He has my vote.

APf

[MasTequila]

I believe the raygun is called a "Laser"

[8bit]

I learned political threads on forms is just beating a dead horse.    

[DrewKaree]

I learned political threads on forms is just beating a dead horse.    

*searches for a dead or dying horse to thrash soundly*

Go to johnkerry.com and read under plans.

I may just friggen cry now that I've read his plans to save America!    I keep seeing under "plans" the phrase "we have a plan to fix _____ (fill in the blank)".  On the one forum where he has carte blanche to tell the WORLD what he plans to do, he sticks with the "I have a plan that will do it better" theme.  Please don't tell us what he's going to do would take pages and pages no one would read.

1 - I would read them
B - It can easily be nutshelled so we get his point

Seeing his website, there's almost too much to comment on.  I just went down his list of plans and opened 'em each up.  Sheesh.  Check out the "compare Kerry and Bush" on each point.  Reading what is said shows just how Kerry views our cowboy prez.  I for one am glad we got a "rodeo clown" sitting in the Oral Office (sorry, it's Oval again that the past occupant is out, keep forgetting that).

Saddle up voters!

[RacerX]

It's interesting how on one page he says he wants to do the following:

- Eliminate incentives to take American jobs overseas

But then in the very next section, he wants to do this:

- Raise the minimum wage to $7

I'm sure the President's campaign site has the same kinds of inconsistent ideas.  I'm not trying to pick on Kerry here.  I'm pretty much fed up with all politicians.  

[SpamMe]

http://JohnKerryIsADoucheBagButImVotingForHimAnyway.com

[mattv]

Don't forget to feed the sharks with the lasers on their backs

uh...I think you mean FRIKIN' laser beams, right?

The frikin' is very important for some reason.

[8bit]

I learned political threads on forms is just beating a dead horse.    

*searches for a dead or dying horse to thrash soundly*

Al Sharpton said "(the blacks) are gonna ride this donkey as far as it can get us"...  you counter with beating a dead horse as far as it can get ya

[danny_galaga]

id call you a sadistic, necrophillic hippophile but that would be flogging a dead horse...

[danny_galaga]

actually i heard much of kerry's speach on the news station the other day. very rousing. you guys sure know how to write a stirring speach!! i damn near started to sing the 'star spangled banner' ! id vote for him even though ive decided not to vote for the mainstream two in Australia!  he mentioned homeless people in Lafeyette park in front of the white house and that reminded of this pic i took across the street at the back of the white house.

help is on the way...

[DarkKobold]

DrewKaree = Brick wall.... where is floyd when we need to turn a post into irrelevant drival?

[fredster]

Sure, Kerry has a firm stand - It's all for KERRY.  Kerry wants what's best for KERRY.

Go Drew!

[DrewKaree]

id call you a sadistic, necrophillic hippophile but that would be flogging a dead horse...

I have been known to fancy live ones too!    Commie!  Move to France!  

[DrewKaree]

DrewKaree = Brick wall.... where is floyd when we need to turn a post into irrelevant drival?

He'll show up to post some related drivel, I'm pretty confident  

You say I equal a brick wall - how so?  I've had open dialogue with anyone here who has disagreed with me and I have been willing to look into any point someone brings up and shows me where they get the info to form their opinion.  If that equals a brick wall (I'm guessing you are referring to me not wavering from my position as being equal to said wall), then I stand before you guilty as charged, although few (haven't re-read those posts, so it may be none) have offered up what I have requested, so I'm gonna have to say the verdict is still out on whether or not I'm guilty.

Now I charge you with the task of showing me why I should change from the opinions I've formed.  If you think it a task not worthy of your time, then I state that your "brick wall" is something that you can proficiently speak of, as you've formed your own.  

My charge is that Kerry spoke at great length, used many words, and formed them into something devoid of meaning.  I'm still waiting to hear what all his "top secret, but they're all better than what Bush is doing right now, I'll let you in on it only if you elect me" plans, i.e. I learned of nothing he stands for other than "I'll do it better", and that's not learning anything about the man.  If it is, I'm running for office in '08, because I will do it better than anyone is currently doing it.  What is "it"?  Take your pick.  I kon doo eet!

     *leaves the request at your feet*

[DrewKaree]

I've decided to do my own documentary ala Michael Moore...I've used danny galaga's words and will be using them in my "picumentary"

actually i heard much of kerry's speach...the other day. he mentioned...(many things)...and that reminded of this pic (someone) took across the street at (his campaign headquarters)...help is on the way...(the grill cook will be late....he's hard at work at his second minimum wage job trying to support his family of four....when will our fine candidate's "relief" kick in?!?

*tries to remove firmly lodged tongue from cheeck, but to no avail*

[danny_galaga]

you've inspired me to do my OWN movie!! this ones a little more risque. i've also quoted your very own words!!

(i was in the shower and drewkaree comes) up and shows me (well) you (catch my drift)  from my position (it was damn impressive)  being equal to (anything id seen, and hey ive been in the navy), I stand before you guilty as charged,  so I'm gonna have to say the verdict is still out on whether or not I'm guilty (of peeking).

Now I charge you with the task of showing me (yours)
 (I, John) Kerry (declare my) great length. (at least) '08 (f)eet!
     

*tongue firmly superglued in cheek*  

[Goz]

John Kerry, Jimmy Carter, and Michael Moore should be on trial for sedition. It's shameful for them to act and say the things that they do to undemmind the current administration in a time of war. I'm not referring to the campaign BS but rather the comments such as the Bush administration is the cause for the terrorist attacks and stuff like Bush is responsible for isolating us from our allies.

The rest of the world is watching us and hoping things will work out. After all our economy has a direct effect on the rest of the free world. Kerry, Carter, and Moore should be put in Abu- garabe (sp) prison.

Just my .02

-Goz

[danny_galaga]

hehe. we're actually hoping you guys use a normal, standardised paper ballot paper that you write a cross on with an actual pencil just like the rest of the world!! not strange machines (in some states) that make (what the hell were they called?) hanging chads?
 oh, and we hope Kerry doesn't have shares in a really shady company...

[rchadd]

i don't really believe that politics should be discussed here

but anyway whatever your political viewpoint - you might like this game...

http://www.miniclip.com/knockout.htm

[mr.Curmudgeon]

John Kerry, Jimmy Carter, and Michael Moore should be on trial for sedition.
...

Kerry, Carter, and Moore should be put in Abu- garabe (sp) prison.

Just my .02

-Goz

This is really the most disgusting statement I've read on these boards. You really have no idea what America is all about do you?

I imagine you'd feel the same about a certain bunch of dirty colonists and their seditious attempts to undermine the U.S. "administration" prior to 1776.

Please think before you type.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Drew,

Are you really that desperate for political discussion that you'd try to start flame wars on an arcade site?

Jesus. Please stop posting this crap and take it elsewhere. We get it, you don't like Kerry.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Well, I'm trying to hold my tongue but I figured I'd at least try to help with your confusion.

Kerry-Edwards: Our Plan for America (PDF)

BTW, what exactly is BUSH CO.'s plan? Staying the course? Smoking Evil do'ers out of holes? Digging spider-holes? Defending against Terrah? Erroneously attacking another country based on falsified intel? (formerly known as lying)

You continually work to perpetuate various wingnut talking points while claiming to have an open mind. I'd charge that you are being disengenous at best when you completely ignore that fact that after THREE YEARS the Bush Administration has yet to form a solid plan on just about anything. You also seem to completely overlook the fact that our President's are mainly figureheads trafficking in 'ideals'. If you're not seeing enough specifics for your taste then you are probably looking too hard. The Republicans (controlling all three branches of government; Legislative, Judicial and Executive) have done nothing but advance a negative platform based on wedge issues and fear. Amendment anyone? Look at the country around you? Is it more united than is was four years ago, or more divided? Look at the world in the same way. What do you see? I see an America hated in the world. I see our citizens systematically controlled by fear using trumped up charges of terrorist attacks. I see an America destroying itself and I want CHANGE.

I believe Kerry deserves the chance to make a change for the better, I have hope in his presidency as I feel Bush has failed me completely and I no longer trust him. I'm not going to try to convince you of anything since you need to look for the answers yourself and you are not going to find them on the internet. They are in your family, community and country and the belief that you have of what's best for them.

Finally, even though I've engaged you in this horrible topic, I humbly emplore you to, in the future, stop posting politics on BYOAC. There are PLENTY of other forums/sites available for this sort of discussion and frankly, I'm sick of seeing here. I take part in plenty of political discussion myself, but until now I've had enough class to keep if off this board.

However, it's a free country (something Gozur certainly doesn't agree with) and imagine I'll just have to try ignoring your posts all together. Nothing personal, but I imagine the vast number of people populating this community come to this board to enjoy themselves in a union of shared interests and work to avoid divisive B.S.

[Jakobud]

For all you Kerry fans out there who seem to listen to everything he spits out of his mouth, you might want to read this enlightening little article on how Kerry recieved his first of three purple hearts:

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200405041626.asp

He fired a mortar round at a rock that was too close to him and the doctor covered his tiny wound with a band-aid... and he got a purple heart for it....

yeah... a real war hero...

This is a perfect example of how Kerry never tells the whole truth to the public...

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Jakobud,

Give us a break. The National Review? Not exactly the most non-partisan source you could quote. Why not just give us Karl Rove's phone number and we'll ask him personally about Kerry's service record? You know, get it straight from the horse's mouth. While we're at it, we can ask him for the remaining records that *prove* Bush wasn't AWOL. Hmmm?

I suppose you think Bush is braver for having avoided service all together?
Give it a rest. At least Kerry put his foot on foreign soil and put himself at risk, even if you believe that risk to be extremely limited.

Bush, on the other hand, was doing lines and flirting w/ would-be secretaries. Real ambition.

[DarkKobold]

Perhaps brickwall is not the best expression. But I don't see you changing your political views here... So debating them on the arcade board is pointless....

The whole point of the floyd post was to get floyd to hopefully ruin this thread off it's politcal path. Since he isn't here, I will start.

I like bunnies!

[Valence]

For all you Kerry fans out there who seem to listen to everything he spits out of his mouth, you might want to read this enlightening little article on how Kerry recieved his first of three purple hearts:

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200405041626.asp

He fired a mortar round at a rock that was too close to him and the doctor covered his tiny wound with a band-aid... and he got a purple heart for it....

yeah... a real war hero...

This is a perfect example of how Kerry never tells the whole truth to the public...

I like to remind you that he is not a 'real war hero' because of 3 purple hearts. He is a 'REAL WAR HERO' because  of the two other things that Repubs never bring up. A little silver and bronze star.

"This is a perfect example of how Kerry's opponents never tell the whole truth to the public.."

I agree with mr.Curmudgeon, rather keep it off the arcade board. There are enough places that I have to correct you idiot ditto heads as it is............;......

[DrewKaree]

There are enough places that I have to correct you idiot ditto heads as it is............;......

please, kind sir, do not lump me into that category, as I am not a ditto head.  You may call me a "Sick Freak", if you must call me names.

They are NOT interchangeable.

I like bunnies!

not enought time right now to respond to the rest, but bunnies suck, ferrets rule.  

I'll be back, girly-man  

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I'll be back, girly-man  

Hopefully not to post more trollesque political threads. Seriously. You are worse than a troll. Not sure how that is possible, but you've somehow done it.

In each of your messages on this board, including your profile, you link to (in no particular order): Glen Beck, another in a long line of substance abusing Right-wing hyprocrital blow-hards; Evil Conservative Industries, who produce your idea of fun wearables (I "heart" Halliburton T-shirts) - Tasteful considering they've made millions while hundreds of our soldiers have been slaughtered in Iraq; and Elmbrook Online, the online presence of a Christian Church in the midwest.

Why do you suppose anyone should debate with you given your absolute penchant for right-wing demagoguery? Although you are entitled to your views, posting such transparent "flamebait" just makes you a nuisance, especially given the nature of the discussion usually reserved for this website (ARCADE MACHINES!!!!!). You claim to be open-minded, while at the same time trolling for other people,-- in some vain attempt at moral vindication -- to try to "convince" you of something other than what you already, obviously, staunchly believe and it seems like a complete and total waste of time. WHY? Take this somewhere else...please.

Please stop cluttering these boards with your partisan filth and I'll promise to continue to do the same.

Thanks,
mrC

[Jakobud]

Jakobud,

Give us a break. The National Review? Not exactly the most non-partisan source you could quote. Why not just give us Karl Rove's phone number and we'll ask him personally about Kerry's service record? You know, get it straight from the horse's mouth. While we're at it, we can ask him for the remaining records that *prove* Bush wasn't AWOL. Hmmm?

Are gonna dispute The Boston Globe, the Seattle Times, and Insight magazine too?

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/04/14/kerry_faces_questions_over_purple_heart/

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationalpolitics/2001920171_veterans05.html

http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/04/27/Politics/Purple.Hearts.Three.And.Out-656749.shtml

I don't know the whole story on why Bush wasn't in vietnam.  I just think that its funny how much Kerry glorifies his purple hearts for wounds that were taken care of with a bandaid (but of course he doesn't mention anything about that).  I'm not here to argue.  I am just trying to shed some light for people who only know what they see on the cover of USA Today.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

You mean to ask me if I trust the media. Answer, No. I prefer more direct sources. You can read what the dozen or so men who actually served with him have to say, including the man who credits Kerry for saving his life.

Most right-wing pundits tend to quote the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth, headed by right-wing lap dog John O'Neill, whose attacks on Kerry were funded by Nixon in the 70's. All of his B.S. is debunked here: http://www.duckstrap.com/swiftboatveteransfortruth_debunked.php

Read through it and see if you still feel the same way. Here's some of my favorite quotes:

"Is it really conceivable that Kerry had the doctors, nurses, and entire chain of command in his pocket? Could he wound himself, then work the system to produce a Bronze Star, a Silver Star and three Purple Hearts."

...

Why haven't any of Kerry's shipmates joined the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth? With the exception of one, all of his shipmates give him high marks for courage and bravery.

Do you really think Kerry and the several dozen people who served with him, treated him and commanded him are all in collusion to fool the public? AND if you do actually go that far, you expect me to feel that's a resonable thing to get upset about when it has already been universally accepted that our CURRENT President has, at best, exaggerated evidence which has led our country into a seemingly never-ending quagmire? As my grandfather would say, "I've got bigger fish to fry."

As for me, the whole issue concerning either candidates service in Vietnam is best summed up in one simple, unarguable visual:


Any Questions?


edit: spelling

[Goz]

John Kerry, Jimmy Carter, and Michael Moore should be on trial for sedition.
...

Kerry, Carter, and Moore should be put in Abu- garabe (sp) prison.

Just my .02

-Goz

This is really the most disgusting statement I've read on these boards. You really have no idea what America is all about do you?

I imagine you'd feel the same about a certain bunch of dirty colonists and their seditious attempts to undermine the U.S. "administration" prior to 1776.

Please think before you type.

I can see someone needs to lighten up. Perhaps adding a little fibre to your diet might help.

The Abu-garabe part was a joke...

But yes as a someone who has served this country I do know what it is about. It is one thing to voice opinion, that is freedom of speach. It is a completlely different thing to attack the commander and chief in a time of war with unproven aligations. Suprisingly enough, i am not a Bush supporter. I do believe he is the lesser of two evils and will continue to try and improve things in the middle east.

If the statements that Moore, Kerry, and Carter could be proved then great impeach Bush and put someone else in there, but please not the Waffle King and the rest of the Demoncrats that just seem bent on getting control of the White House any way they can.

I'm done with this thread it is not worth my time to debate ideals with people on a hobby board. We all have different opinions and in our own rights believe ourselves to be good people. Remember it is the differences in us all that make this a great country.

*PS if Kerry wins, I'm going to move to Australia or Canada were things are already messed up.   <--- again another attempt at humor.

-Goz

[mr.Curmudgeon]

The Abu-garabe part was a joke...

-Goz

Maybe I need to be a Republican or something, but I just don't find the humor in sodomizing young boys, raping innocent women, stockpiling naked men and beating innocent iraqi civilians to death.

I mean, I'm all for a good joke, but Gozur, I just don't think that's it.

It is one thing to voice opinion, that is freedom of speach. It is a [completely] different thing to attack the commander and chief in a time of war.

Then we differ here as well. I believe it's our absolute duty as American citizens to hold our government accountable for their actions, especially in a time of war. Here's some other quotes from notable people who agree w/ me.

"'My country, right or wrong' is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober.'"

[DrewKaree]

Are you really that desperate for political discussion that you'd try to start flame wars on an arcade site?

To this point, this hasn't been anything other than civil discourse amongst people interested in the subject.  No one has posted here who hasn't wished their opinion to be heard and considered regarding a current and controversial topic, and each has conducted themselves as the sub-forum requests "leave hate at the door".  Even Gozur's post, while "expressive" to say the least, doesn't delve into any hateful actions he may want visited upon the "seditionists" he speaks of.  

I was careful to post this in the correct place, and looking at other posts here, I see other equally non-arcade related threads here, some being less-civil and as heated, if not more so, regarding their topics.  In each of them, it appears that the posters to each thread wished their opinion to be heard, as the subject tells you the nature of the thread (in most cases) before you even have to open it.  While titled in such a way as to draw interest, if you happen to be interested in the subject of politics, in no way could you misconstrue the fact that this thread was going to be about current political happenings and the opinions of them.  I fail to see how this topic and thread falls outside the guidelines set forth for "Everything else".  I've not made you open this thread, nor forced you to read/post to this thread.  It simply piqued interest enough, good or bad.  

I see people engaging in "divisive B.S.", ridiculing/shaming/hounding others for the "crime" of doing something considered taboo to a cabinet.  Should they too "stop posting this crap and take it elsewhere"?  In such a case, and as with my political threads, these are strongly held opinions, and in both cases these opinions can be taken to heart because of the case the person presents, or dismissed as the ramblings of a person uneducated on the subject.  If a topic cannot be voiced, it has been clearly defined (i.e. where to get roms).  If those guidelines are modified, I'll abide by those.  If those guidelines aren't adhered to, I'll abide by any actions taken against me as well.  To say that I can't post an opinion thread in the proper place because it's not in keeping with the general "feel" of the place is akin to telling me I can't go into my local Starbucks and orally debate these topics because everyone else there came because they wanted to enjoy their coffee or that no newspaper can publish an op-ed page because I want to enjoy my news-paper.  

In each of these cases, you are responsible for the choice you made to continue to listen/read my opinion.  I haven't infected your computer with a virus that automatically opened this thread on your screen without you having to press a key.  I'm sorry you feel as if this doesn't belong on an arcade site, just as others are sorry that someone MAME'd a classic or added a frankenpanel to a Centipede.    

You say "we get it, you don't like Kerry".  You really DON'T get it.  It has nothing to do with liking Kerry, it's that the future and direction of our country is important enough that I can take a few minutes out of my day to inform other like-minded people of information that I find offers hope, enlightens, is helpful, and tells a tale far different than that relayed through various "mainstream" channels.  

Obviously you were interested to see why this dunderhead continues to talk about something that didn't fit any other category, otherwise you'd have never opened this thread.  As well, the only people pleading that I keep this type of discussion off of the board are those that disagree with my point of view.  I'm not going to jump on my soapbox and scream censorship, I only invite you to stop reading what it is that I write.  If you wish to be taken seriously re: dropping the topic of politics, then simply never read/reply to them and watch them go the way of the dodo bird.  In case you've missed it, I do post to other threads, give help where I feel I can be of service, and offer attempts at humor, all without clouding those threads with my political diatribe.

regards,
DK

[APFelon]

Maybe I need to be a Republican or something, but I just don't find the humor in sodomizing young boys, raping innocent women, stockpiling naked men and beating innocent iraqi civilians to death.

I consume a lot of news daily. Can you cite a (credible) source where there are legitimate claims of soldiers committing murder, pedophelia, and rape? I haven't seen any of that except from the "wacky conspiracy" sites out there...

APf

[Valence]

Maybe I need to be a Republican or something, but I just don't find the humor in sodomizing young boys, raping innocent women, stockpiling naked men and beating innocent iraqi civilians to death.

I consume a lot of news daily. Can you cite a (credible) source where there are legitimate claims of soldiers committing murder, pedophelia, and rape? I haven't seen any of that except from the "wacky conspiracy" sites out there...

APf

Washington Post

NY Post

CBS

Telegraph

Guardian


Hope these are not the 'wacky conspiracy' websites you are talking about

[fredster]

Valence,

None of the rape alligations have been proven or even followed up in those articles you have posted.  Almost all of it is speculation and rumor.  It hasn't been followed up in months.  Just like the story that the Iraqis found a nuke under concrete, it's a rumor, not a fact.

I was in the Army.  I doubt very seriously if it was widespread.  I don't believe it's systemic at all. There's a lot more disipline in our forces than that.  It's a shame those very very few soldiers disgraced the US, but it's hardly a reflection on the US forces.  I hope all of them are punished to the full extent of the law.

It's a sad comment on our country that people would even believe that the US actually would beat people to death.  It's against all our laws.  I'm not saying it couldn't happen.  But its a crime and the shear number of soldiers increases the likelyhood of a bad apple here and there.  

As far as the deaths, well, people die in tough situations.  Today a man died in our plant.  He was working, had a heart attack and fell.  It happens. In my unit in the army we had 100 people.  In two years, 6 of the died in unrelated events.  There's a lot of stress on both ends, war is a nasty thing.  Just because they died in the custody of US forces doesn't mean we killed them.  

I hate to see rumor and enuendo passed off as news stories.  I hate to see opinions filter into the straight news, (in right or left views), that's what divides us.  It makes us think the worst of each other all the time.

[menace]

I prefer concave buttons to convex buttons--call me crazy but old school is the way to go.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Even Gozur's post, while "expressive" to say the least, doesn't delve into any hateful actions he may want visited upon the "seditionists" he speaks of.

Your intellectually dishonesty is staggering. Why, exactly, do you think Gozur suggested dissenters be placed in Abu Ghraib? So they could trades notes? He dislikes what Carter, Moore, et al, have to say and he suggested they be put in a prison now infamous for the torture KNOWN to have taken place. Soliders have been indicted and CONVICTED of such. It just isn't funny and I can't stand it when people try to pawn off an inappropriate comment as a "joke". Ha ha, people were tortured and America lost uncalcuable amounts of respect in the world, let's send people I disagree with there, HA HA. And here you defend such a comment.

I see people engaging in "divisive B.S.", ridiculing/shaming/hounding others for the "crime" of doing something considered taboo to a cabinet.  Should they too "stop posting this crap and take it elsewhere"?  

Great comparison. Our country, our cabinets. You obviously have some masochistic desire to spread your partisan rhetoric in the guise of "informing" others. Well, how about responding to my post above directing you to possible answers to your disengenuine query (this topic) about Kerry's political stance? Read the PDF...or were you never really interested in Kerry's views to begin with? It seems to me you aren't trying to inform anyone, your are trying to persuade...without being forthright and/or fair.

In each of these cases, you are responsible for the choice you made to continue to listen/read my opinion.  I haven't infected your computer with a virus that automatically opened this thread on your screen without you having to press a key.

Actually Bush support is a virus, I hope you're not infected.

I'm sorry you feel as if this doesn't belong on an arcade site, just as others are sorry that someone MAME'd a classic or added a frankenpanel to a Centipede.    

That's certainly a streeeeeeeeeetch. You're a partisan hack and I'm calling you out. I am going to try to avoid wasting my time with any more of your "informed" posts as I feel I've done my job painting you as the hypocritical bloviator that you are. If you feel you're actually doing some good posting your pablum, more power to you. Better that than having you out in the streets foaming at the mouth. Screaming, "The end is nigh, the end is nigh!"
 

You say "we get it, you don't like Kerry".  You really DON'T get it.  It has nothing to do with liking Kerry, it's that the future and direction of our country is important enough that I can take a few minutes out of my day to inform other like-minded people of information that I find offers hope, enlightens, is helpful, and tells a tale far different than that relayed through various "mainstream" channels.  

Again I call "shenanigans". You're publishing Republican talking points on an arcade website. If you really cared about this country you'll be voting for Kerry, end of story. Bush is a failure and to continue to support him (even indirectly) is tantamount to a character flaw at this point in the running. You know what's funny, maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen you outright express your support for Bush. Either you aren't brave enough to do so, or you really have nothing better to do than bag on the viable alternatives. I'm guessing you've bought Bush's whole "compassionate conservatism" spiel, since he's been "born again" -- Personally I feel being born again is for the week-kneed who refuse to grow up -- and you're just one more doey-eyed foot soldier marching lock-step with the Bushinistas in the culture war. You have a blatantly obvious agenda and you're being completely dishonest about your "open-mindedness".

As well, the only people pleading that I keep this type of discussion off of the board are those that disagree with my point of view.

Get off the cross, someone else needs the wood.

I'm not going to jump on my soapbox and scream censorship, I only invite you to stop reading what it is that I write.  If you wish to be taken seriously re: dropping the topic of politics, then simply never read/reply to them and watch them go the way of the dodo bird.

Your wanton wingnut topics will continue to piss me off, but I promise to hold off as much as possible. However, sometimes a troll needs to be labelled a troll.

In case you've missed it, I do post to other threads, give help where I feel I can be of service, and offer attempts at humor, all without clouding those threads with my political diatribe.

Yeah, that giant conservative banner on each of your posts certainly feigns relevancy on retro gaming threads.

Brothers in Jebus,
mrC

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Valence,

None of the rape alligations have been proven or even followed up in those articles you have posted.  

We'll here's another, more recent one for you then.

The Secret File of Abu Ghraib (July 28, 2004)

The new classified military documents offer a chilling picture of what happened at Abu Ghraib -- including detailed reports that U.S. troops and translators sodomized and raped Iraqi prisoners. The secret files -- 106 "annexes" that the Defense Department withheld from the Taguba report last spring -- include nearly 6,000 pages of internal Army memos and e-mails, reports on prison riots and escapes, and sworn statements by soldiers, officers, private contractors and detainees. The files depict a prison in complete chaos. Prisoners were fed bug-infested food and forced to live in squalid conditions; detainees and U.S. soldiers alike were killed and wounded in nightly mortar attacks; and loyalists of Saddam Hussein served as guards in the facility, apparently smuggling weapons to prisoners inside.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Sleep well Drew.

[Goz]

Even Gozur's post, while "expressive" to say the least, doesn't delve into any hateful actions he may want visited upon the "seditionists" he speaks of.

Your intellectually dishonesty is staggering. Why, exactly, do you think Gozur suggested dissenters be placed in Abu Ghraib? So they could trades notes? He dislikes what Carter, Moore, et al, have to say and he suggested they be put in a prison now infamous for the torture KNOWN to have taken place. Soliders have been indicted and CONVICTED of such. It just isn't funny and I can't stand it when people try to pawn off an inappropriate comment as a "joke". Ha ha, people were tortured and America lost uncalcuable amounts of respect in the world, let's send people I disagree with there, HA HA. And here you defend such a comment.

It was a joke (maybe a bad one), nothing more.... you are far too uptight.

perhaps you should talk to someone professionally about your issues or try adding extra fibre to your diet or maybe even a laxative.

Breath in...   Breath out.... find some mantra that helps you relax

Replying to this only drags it out..

Time to move on... to threads that relate to the hobby.

-Goz

[DarkKobold]

Sit on this one Drew!  

[mr.Curmudgeon]

LOL.


(See Gozur, I'm not that uptight)

[DrewKaree]

Well, how about responding to my post above directing you to possible answers to your disengenuine query (this topic) about Kerry's political stance? Read the PDF...or were you never really interested in Kerry's views to begin with?

You gave me a 251 page report on his "plans".  I do hope that you can find it in your heart to allow me to read it before posting on it.  Please forgive me for not posting quicker on the entire document.  I will get to it, but it may not be at your pace.  If you are so genuine in your concern to help me, I'm sure you'll find that to be reasonable.  It's kinda hard to not respond to the "compassionate and civil" postings you've made about myself and my character AND understand the otherworldy logic the candidate from MA is giving.  You'd agree that it is a bit "over my head" and I may have a tough time grasping all the good points the first time around, right?

...without being forthright and/or fair.

*ring....ring...ring*  Hello?
Mr Kettle, this is Mr Pot...I'm calling you black.
*click*

Again I call "shenanigans". You're publishing Republican talking points on an arcade website. If you really cared about this country you'll be voting for Kerry, end of story.

Said the man seething with hatred for Bush whose main point is that I'm a wingnut wackjob spouting my demagogic points to a rapt and willing audience and leading them in lockstep down a path of ruin to the foot of a cross of some carpenter who may or may not have done shoddy work.

Bush is a failure and to continue to support him (even indirectly) is tantamount to a character flaw at this point in the running. You know what's funny, maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen you outright express your support for Bush. Either you aren't brave enough to do so, or you really have nothing better to do than bag on the viable alternatives.

I support the need for continuing the fight we've started against countries willing to attack ours.  This means I support Bush's agenda for dealing with it.  I do not support his management of government programs regarding the creation of new entitilement programs without attempting to reform the wasteful, easy-to-abuse, misguided ones that we already have.  Viable alternative is your opinion, one which is in direct contradiction with your stance that it should not be posted to an arcade board.  I obviously disagree with your viable opinion statement. I agree in general with the libertarian cause.  I choose to support Bush this year because the (mis)information deluge he is having to battle is tremendous, and I believe it is vital to our country to have a leader with the convictions and purpose of ensuring our country is led, not managed, to defend ourselves.

I'm guessing you've bought Bush's whole "compassionate conservatism" spiel, since he's been "born again" -- Personally I feel being born again is for the week-kneed who refuse to grow up -- and you're just one more doey-eyed foot soldier marching lock-step with the Bushinistas in the culture war. You have a blatantly obvious agenda and you're being completely dishonest about your "open-mindedness".

I'll be sure to pass this along to each of my Democratic friends when I go to church this Sunday.

Get off the cross, someone else needs the wood.

I'd hate to give up my "spot" in case another would take my place and lead all the "week-kneed who refuse to grow up" to an "enlightened" place of peace and happiness.

Your wanton wingnut topics will continue to piss me off, but I promise to hold off as much as possible. However, sometimes a troll needs to be labelled a troll.

does this mean we part vastly differing in opinion, but civil to one another in areas outside of politcal debate?  (I think we could be civil to one another in politcal debate as well, but you're showing that it's really not possible.

Yeah, that giant conservative banner on each of your posts certainly feigns relevancy on retro gaming threads.

would you like my signature to be made smaller, or just censor remove it altogether?  Let me know...your "middle of the road" viewpoint has me confused.  

I get it.  You want to create the very "flame war" you state existed in this thread before you joined the conversation.  I don't believe you read over all of them, or, having done that, you're unfamiliar with "disingenous" and how it relates to your comments and your attempts to foment said "flame war".  I'm guessing you majored in intellectual dishonesty yourself, since you're unwilling to address the fact that this HAS been civil discourse.  If you look at the Google ads, I've even made your opinion the topic in targeted marketing!

I find it ironic that you believe in a candidate who espouses a non-divisive campaign, yet can't seem to control your own divisive comments.  Hypocrite, heal thyself.

Cheers
DK

[DrewKaree]

Sit on this one Drew!  

Ferrets are so cool, Budweiser put 'em in a commercial with the hippest parties!  All they've done with bunnies is make jokes about 'em in cartoons!  Beer commercials are the be all and end all.  If I just drink the right stuff, I can get the fastest car, hottest girl, you name it!  It may look horrible in the morning, but...

Ferrets in '08!

[DrewKaree]

and lastly:

for MrC, Bush's plan from 2000.  I'll have to wait to see his plan.  I haven't looked for it, as I'm voting for him for reasons stated two posts up.  If he takes our education, social security, and health care down the avenue of creating larger government programs, then I think he should be tarred and feathered, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt


The Secret File of Abu Ghraib

The foot-dragging is astonishing, given that Congress has access to classified documents detailing the abuses outlined by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba in his report on Abu Ghraib. Rolling Stone obtained those files in June and offers this report on their contents.

You'd think some outraged Congressman would take a stand and do something.  Thank goodness Rolling Stone was able to get their hands on these classified military documents and is willing to take the bull by the horns.  If the story is proven to be true, mountains should be moved to punish the guilty parties involved, but to state these allegations as fact paints a picture of  ALL of Congress as willing accomplices in keeping this under wraps, "given that Congress has access to classified documents detailing the abuses outlined by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba in his report on Abu Ghraib".  It's reporting like this that causes war supporters to call into question "the press" and their motives.  At least the Guardian is a little more even-handed in how they wrote their story about this.

re:  Washington Post If the allegations are proven to be true, the responsible parties should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of whatever law you choose.

re:  New York Times (in case anyone wants to dismiss this because it comes from peaceredding.org, the NY Times would require you to register/subscribe in order to read their stories.  It's easier to show a repost from somewhere else)  It appears this is the same case being reported on as above.  Regardless, in all of these cases the punishment should be just as severe as what was doled out.

re:  CBS News - again, seems to be the same cases, they add a few of the other cases stated to also be in question.

re:  Telegraph - a different case alleging rape of a female prisoner that is/will be under investigation now.  If proven to be true, again, I'm all for punishment to whatever extent you wish to be meted out.

re:  The Guardian - a case alleging sodomy.  Unsure as to the outcome of the allegations, but I am willing to wait to hear the outcome and, if proven to be true, would expect that punishment for the actions HAS to be given.

While it troubles me to see continued allegations such as these come out, I am also not willing to pack it all in and ship out.  I am all for giving out whatever punishment dissenters of this war want to give to these people who have committed these acts.  We have a responsibility to treat prisoners of war as we would want our own prisoners to be treated, and if prisoner treatment falls outside the guidelines laid out in the Geneva Convention we are quick to invoke, punishment should be swift and severe.

These things have been done in the name of giving military intelligence control over almost every aspect of prison conditions at Abu Ghraib with the explicit aim of manipulating the detainees' "emotions and weaknesses".  It is in THIS area that I am willing to have U.N. assistance present to ensure our compliance with the Geneva Convention.  

At some point, the actions of those we fight against must be looked at by those willing to pack up and ship out as tactics as horrific as those we've perpetrated.  We are at war, and unfortunately, bad things happen during wartime.  

To bring this back to the topic of the thread, something I've learned about Kerry is that I am being asked to believe that the man who is saying he will lead the country better than it is currently being run has also admitted to committing similar acts he decries now.  I see many things that point to his politicizing what happened in the Vietnam war for the benefit of his public persona, but I guess it's just my tainted opinion that sees his re-enactments of "my heroic actions" as the narcissistic actions of a blowhard.  What I don't see is a reason to believe that the man who didn't possess the intestinal fortitude to not commit these actions then, somehow has developed it since.  If it is so horrible for our current administration to "allow this to happen" (Kerry's words) then he should show this "newfound" intestinal fortitude and remove himself from this race for not only allowing it to happen, but to DO the very things he finds so vile now.

[rchadd]

drew, i wonder why you are really posting this stuff?

getting worried?

[APFelon]

[

Hope these are not the 'wacky conspiracy' websites you are talking about

No need to be sarcasticly rude, pal. I was requesting information, not threatening to shoot your hampster with a howitzer.

APf

[danny_galaga]

I prefer concave buttons to convex buttons--call me crazy but old school is the way to go.

you and i both. and gozur wears his preference proudly.

CONCAVE BUTTONS FOR PRESIDENT!

[fredster]

mr.Curmudgeon,

On that article you posted to support your point,  Do people actually read rolling stone and believe it's indepth reporting on poltical subjects??!?

Come on.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

mr.Curmudgeon,

On that article you posted to support your point,  Do people actually read rolling stone and believe it's indepth reporting on poltical subjects??!?

Come on.

So are you saying the whole article is a lie? Do you have proof to the contrary?

I agree that it's sad that something like this is relegated to the pages of Rolling Stone (although I don't believe that makes it inherently false) and I have to wonder exactly why our Congress isn't doing more?  

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I support the need for continuing the fight we've started against countries willing to attack ours.

Good for you, tough-guy. When are you going to sign up for duty?

I choose to support Bush this year because the (mis)information deluge he is having to battle is tremendous, and I believe it is vital to our country to have a leader with the convictions and purpose of ensuring our country is led, not managed, to defend ourselves.

This is wrong-headed on so many levels I wouldn't even know where to begin. So basically you're supporting Bush because you feel "sorry" for him? Great.

does this mean we part vastly differing in opinion, but civil to one another in areas outside of politcal debate?  (I think we could be civil to one another in politcal debate as well, but you're showing that it's really not possible.

It's possible and we could be. However, you have misrepresented your intentions in the past and the more you allow your real agenda to take center stage, leveling the playing field, the more apt I will be to temper my frustration.

would you like my signature to be made smaller, or just censor remove it altogether?  Let me know...your "middle of the road" viewpoint has me confused.  

You play the victim really well. *golf-clap*

I find it ironic that you believe in a candidate who espouses a non-divisive campaign, yet can't seem to control your own divisive comments.  Hypocrite, heal thyself.

If forcing you to lay all your cards on the table is hypocritical, then so be it. I find it ironic that you support a candidate that espouses a strong sense of moral fortitude and leadership and can't run on the record he's built before nor during his presidency.

"Mr. Bush's advisers plan to cap the month at the Republican convention in New York, which they said would feature Mr. Kerry as an object of humor and calculated derision."  - A true uniter!

[shmokes]

Drew, Kerry said this:


"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed, in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones, I conducted harassment and interdiction fire, I used .50-caliber machine guns which were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages," Kerry said in 1971.

In 1971, Kerry also testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and recited a litany of atrocities and war crimes he said had been reported to him by other soldiers.

He said those included rapes, mutilations, torture and random shootings of civilians. He did not claim to have personally witnessed or been involved in such acts.

That's from this CNN article

I don't buy all this stuff about Kerry being a waffler.

First, even if he did support the war and then change his mind, that might have had something to do with the fact that the Bush administration deliberately mislead everyone into believing that Iraq posted a serious threat, and that they were in league with Al Qaeda.  I think it would be morally reprehinsible for someone to stubbornly support something simply because they originally supported it, even after they have come to believe that the original support was a mistake.

Second, your claim is just Michael Moore-style misdirection.  Kerry did not "support the war and then not support the war."  He voted against the $87 Billion dollars, because the plan basically pretended that money simply has to be printed.  It wasn't, "We'll pull $87 billion from this program and that program and send it to Iraq," or, "We'll raise the $87 billion with this tax or that tax."   It was simply,  "We're going to spend an extra $87 billion dollars and figure it out later."  I thought you'all were supposed to be the fiscally responsible party.  It's funny how whenever you're in power you just pull out the credit cards and go on a big spending spree.

Third, if you want to see waffling why don't you ask mister Bush why we're at war with Iraq.  Do you think he'll tell you that it's because Iraq has Weapons of Mass Destruction?  Perhaps he'll tell you that the U.S. went into Iraq (at the disapproval of the U.N.) because Iraq wouldn't do what the U.N. told them to do.  Or maybe he'll tell you that it's because Saddam wanted weapons of Mass Destruction.  No???  Well, maybe you caught him on the day that we were going into Iraq because they were in league with Al Qaeda.  What??? You mean to say that Bin Laden considered Saddam Husseign an evil socialist who needed to be overthrown?  Well, maybe Bush will tell you that it was a humanitarian mission because of all the atrocities Saddam has committed against his own people.  Or maybe he'll tell you that it's because Saddam was a declared enemy of the United States who, while he did not have any WMDs, had the capability of producing WMDs.  Of course, maybe he should lock me up too, since, afterall I have expressed a desire to have lots of money and I do, afterall, have the capability of robbing a bank.  

He's a facist waffler

[fredster]

mr.Curmudgeon

I can't believe anybody would take that seriously. If it were true, there would be news media all over it, it would be a very very BIG story.

That's the proof I am looking for, more than one source.

Believing something like that is like believing Clem and Elmo were abducted by aliens in a story in the Enquirer.  With no backup evidence from another source, don't you think that it puts the story in question?

The opposite was true the other day on the drudgereport. There was a story proclaiming that the Iraqi government found a neuclear missle buried deep in concrete.  It even went so far as to describe the type of warheads on it.  If it were true, the media would be all over it.

Weren't they all over the original Story?  Think about it.  The Rolling Stone has been anti-Bush and Anti-Republican for like, ever man.  

[mr.Curmudgeon]

for MrC, Bush's plan from 2000.  I'll have to wait to see his plan.

In a thread where you criticise Kerry for not establishing a coherent platform, you'd admit to not knowing the current platform of a man who has been president for the last 3 1/2 years? After the largest terrorist attack on American soil, the largest debt our country has ever faced and two wars, you're voting for platform established in 2000? While you're at it, why not vote for Reagan, I hear he had some great ideas on how to win the Cold War. Damn, Russkies.

I haven't looked for it, as I'm voting for him for reasons stated two posts up.  If he takes our education, social security, and health care down the avenue of creating larger government programs, then I think he should be tarred and feathered, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Oops.

Republicans Become the Party of Big Government
"Politically, it must be frustrating for the Republicans who have worked hard in the past to cut government to see today's Republican president become one of the biggest spenders in decades. "

You'd think some outraged Congressman would take a stand and do something.  Thank goodness Rolling Stone was able to get their hands on these classified military documents and is willing to take the bull by the horns.

I agree with yo on this. See my post above.

If the story is proven to be true, mountains should be moved to punish the guilty parties involved, but to state these allegations as fact paints a picture of  ALL of Congress as willing accomplices in keeping this under wraps, "given that Congress has access to classified documents detailing the abuses outlined by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba in his report on Abu Ghraib".

I actually think there is more to it than that. I am, myself, conflicted about whether or not it's in our country's best interest to release all the details. For if what is floating around now as rumor ends up being true, Bush's War in Iraq will have cost our country it's very soul and the War On Terror will end up being futile. Maybe Congress really does know the truth and collectively think it's unwise to publish the torrid details. Remember the pale and drawn faces of all the congresspeople after Rummy showed them all the "photos and videos". Most of that stuff has never been seen by the public, so it's not a stretch to say that Congress knows more than what they are telling us. Sounds like tin-foil hat stuff, but I imagine they may think it best to quietly prosecute offenders and not politicize it at all, since it hurts our country more than it hurts Bush/Kerry etc. The screams of abused children would have a tendency to do that, you know. This stuff is so horrid, there really isn't a way for our news outlets to discuss this sort of thing and they may know that. Can you picture Judy Woodruff candidly talking about children being anally raped?

While it troubles me to see continued allegations such as these come out, I am also not willing to pack it all in and ship out.

Nor am I, but I do believe Bush and his inept administration have created the circumstances for allowing something like this to happen (ie: Illegitmate war, private contractors, Rumsfailed allowing torture) and I believe every single American with a conscience should hold them accountable in November, no matter what your political affiliation may be. Not only for these horrible acts (should they be proven to be systemic), but for record deficits, record job loss, two failed war/reconstructions and misappropriation of resources better suited for the "real" War On Terror. I don't see why the President should be allowed any less accountability than I am at my job, I mean, if I or my staff screw up....I'm fired. Shouldn't he be held more to account?

I am all for giving out whatever punishment dissenters of this war want to give to these people who have committed these acts.  We have a responsibility to treat prisoners of war as we would want our own prisoners to be treated, and if prisoner treatment falls outside the guidelines laid out in the Geneva Convention we are quick to invoke, punishment should be swift and severe.

I imagine you believe the "few bad apples" story. I believe it's systemic, thus the administration is at fault. More stories are coming out of Gitmo that point in this direction.

At some point, the actions of those we fight against must be looked at by those willing to pack up and ship out as tactics as horrific as those we've perpetrated.  We are at war, and unfortunately, bad things happen during wartime.  

A little too apologist for my tastes with the "unfortunately, bad things happen during wartime". Kerry, as with most Democrats (and probably independents such as myself) have never advocated leaving Iraq. So don't confuse the issues at hand.

Afghanistan is a mess:
"The most likely future for Afghanistan is chronic instability that Western powers, expending limited resources, will attempt to contain, but will not be able to resolve." (PINR Report)

To bring this back to the topic of the thread, something I've learned about Kerry is that I am being asked to believe that the man who is saying he will lead the country better than it is currently being run has also admitted to committing similar acts he decries now.

Didn't you just state earlier, "unfortunately, bad things happen during wartime"? Better a man who seeks contrition than a man who can't remember ever making any mistakes. WWJVF? (Who would Jesus Vote For?)

I see many things that point to his politicizing what happened in the Vietnam war for the benefit of his public persona

As opposed to an AWOL'er landing on air-craft carrier to declare "Mission Accomplished" when it's not, using our troops as propoganda, and posing with fake thanksgiving day Turkeys for photo-ops in the guise of "boosting troop morale"? (You do realise that only troops that supported Bush were allowed in the tent, much like attendees to Bush/Cheney rallies are now required to sign a "pledge of allegance" to his campaign in order to attend)

What I don't see is a reason to believe that the man who didn't possess the intestinal fortitude to not commit these actions then, somehow has developed it since.  If it is so horrible for our current administration to "allow this to happen" (Kerry's words) then he should show this "newfound" intestinal fortitude and remove himself from this race for not only allowing it to happen, but to DO the very things he finds so vile now.

Or maybe he should continue to run for President in order to make it right.

Peace and love,
mrC

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I can't believe anybody would take that seriously. If it were true, there would be news media all over it, it would be a very very BIG story.

You'd think. See my post above for potential reasons why we're not seeing this all over.

That's the proof I am looking for, more than one source.

I don't believe this over yet. Not by a long shot. So we'll see.

mrC

[GGKoul]

Before I post this, I just want too say that I am a Canadian and I have not seen F9/11.

But if you don't believe Bush & the Saudi's royal family are "close" friend.  You may want to see this

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0804041gifts1.html

-GGKoul

[DrewKaree]

Good for you, tough-guy. When are you going to sign up for duty?

I tried years ago.  I'm medically unfit for duty.  If I could have, I wouldn't need to sign up for duty now, as I'd have already volunteered.  Me, a "tough-guy"?  Are you just trying to flatter me to get on my good side?  It's working   I'm starting to love you...maybe it's just my religious fanaticism working to let me see the good in you  

[mr.Curmudgeon]

...without being forthright and/or fair.

*ring....ring...ring*  Hello?
Mr Kettle, this is Mr Pot...I'm calling you black.
*click*

You know, I'm not the one posting partisan flamebait "topics" on a hobby board dedicated to arcade machines.

Here's why I think it's wrong:

1) It's easy. No thought required, just an agenda.
2) It's divisive. At this point in a heated election year, our country is split right down the middle. The independents are a smaller group than they have ever been. You are *not* going to win any converts. Even Bush has given up on the idea. (ie: requiring the signing ofwavers to get into see Bush/Cheney speeches. How can undecideds get in?)
3) Opinions are like bungholes...everybody has got one.
4) It's anathema to the nature of this site. It will only encourage more extremely opinionated topics, pushes this community further apart. Should I start posting my views on abortion? gay rights? minorities? Religion? Creationism vs. Evolution. Come on...you see where this is going.
5) It's the advertising of ideals that have NOTHING to do with the hobby, which is never very constructive...you know what they say about arguing on the internet....

Just so you understand my criticism, I've searched the BYOAC archives and visually scanned thread topics over the last several years, and granted I may have missed some, your recent postings are by FAR the most overtly political. In the past 3 years (excluding your recent posts), there have been two anti-bush topics (2004), one topic about F9/11 (asking people about their opinions, not cramming partisan rhetoric down people's throats, ie: "Farenheit/Michael Moore links/Lies") and one pro-Kerry topic. If you expect me to accept that your posts fit in with the general atmosphere of this board and the specific leanings of topics in "Everything Else", than that's a really crappy ratio. 4 topics out of thousands.

You joined here in Feb 2004, I've been a member here (lurking/reading/researching mostly, as you'll see by my post count) since 2002. You're posts *do not*, IMHO, fit in with the vast majority of "Everything Else" that has been posted here since the boards inception. You are deliberately titling your threads in provocative manner to increase viewership in advance of your political views/motives. I consider that spamming/advertisement. It's not political discourse since you have no intent of changing your views.

Now, am I being hypocritical by posting in the current threads? Probably. However, you won't see me EVER start one of these sorts of topics. In addition, I'm trying to wind down my posts on these threads since my points have been made. So, at least there I'm being consistent and honest. No kettle, no pot.

Finally, I'm asking you, begging you, chill out on the political threads and take it somewhere else. You are entitled to your opinion, and I'd love to debate you...just not here. Hell, if you lived by me I'd take you out for a beer (or something) and we could knock heads. I just don't think the BYOAC is the place to try further your agenda. It's pointless and it's giving birth to more of this sort of thing. Watch and see.


(really very)
Sincerely,
mrC

[fredster]

MrC,

In defense of Drew, This is as very good a topic on this board for "everything else"

If you don't like the topic, then you don't have to open the thread.  We are not compelled to open every thread every day on every side.  

After all, It's not political discourse since you have no intent of changing your views.

I think it comes down to two camps -
Those that trust the President
Those that don't trust the President.

We can argue and compare our facts. We can make points.  We may never agree.

But one thing is clear, when one side starts calling names and getting personal, then that side has lost the argument. Period.

As a rebutal to the Rolling Stone thing (again) - Here's one about Kerry, and there are as many on him as with Bush - http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesuite.net/unfit_video_wmv.html  after all - can we say the whole article is a lie? Do you have proof to the contrary?

There are always two sides. We should all try and see the other side.  It's fun and interesting to see where we stand.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

UPDATE: (Friday, Aug. 6th)
Swift Boat Veterans have been sunk! Their story didn't even last a day.
"The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" have been found to include a man who changed his story right after Kerry entered the race and another who flat-out retracts his accusations.  Meanwhile, another SBVfT member has accused Kerry of not really deserving his Bronze Star because the events leading to it never occured... even though the Veteran recieved a Bronze Star for the same day's events</a> he claims now never happened.

MrC,

There are always two sides. We should all try and see the other side.  It's fun and interesting to see where we stand.

Ok. Hope you enjoy the fact that the author of the book you linked to, John O'Neill, has been linked to the GOP establishment since the 70's and didn't serve in Vietnam until three months after Kerry left and none of the men in the group Swiftboat Veterans for Truth actually served on Kerry's swiftboats. They are also linked to the GOP and have received at least $100,000 in support from Bob J. Perry, a big Texas Republican donor.

While the veterans attacking Kerry in the ad are veterans of the Vietnam War and may have served at the same time as Kerry, as The New York Times reported on August 5, the Kerry campaign noted that "none of the men had actually served on the Swift boats that Mr. Kerry commanded." Adm. Roy F. Hoffman, one of the veterans in the ad, has even "acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor," the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported on May 7, "and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally."

In contrast, many of the veterans who have appeared on the campaign trail with Kerry did serve alongside him. The Wall Street Journal's Albert R. Hunt noted in his August 5 "Campaign Journal" column, titled "Sham Charges Against a War Hero", "Indeed, 10 of the 11 men who served on his two swift boats all have sworn by John Kerry; nine living members were in Boston [for the Democratic National Convention]." (Read More Truth)

Plus Snopes debunked these fools a long time ago,

"How well all of these men knew John Kerry is questionable, and discrepancies between how some of them described Kerry thirty-five years ago and how they describe him today suggest that their opinions are largely based upon political differences rather than objective assessments of Kerry's military record. For example, Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman is quoted above, yet the Los Angeles Times reported:

. . . Hoffman and Kerry had few direct dealings in Vietnam. A Los Angeles Times examination of Navy archives found that Hoffman praised Kerry's performance in cabled messages after several river skirmishes.1
"

Two sides, indeed. Even John McCain call these latest criticisms of Kerry's service "dishonest and dishonorable". Scott McClellan, White House spokesman has the White House backing down, you really still think there is truth in this?

P.S. Don't worry about whether or not I open any more threads, I've made my feelings on them clear and I'll leave it at that. I understand that they will probably continue. However, you won't see me start any, but I may continue to try to end them by refuting the "facts" therein.

[shmokes]

err....seriously.  It's just weird to talk about the fact that a thread shouldn't exist and how retarded it is, and then post to it.

I kind of like Drews threads.  I think he's got loose screws rolling around in his head, and I think his party is full of god-fearing racists and elitists, but mostly people who delusionally believe that one day they too will be admited into the club and can be rich and powerful.  It's an impressive scam.  But, well, it's America damn-it.  When you tell someone they shouldn't say inflamatory things it starts sounding like the retarded claims from the Bush administration about people being unpatriotic.  

Anyway...if you're going to do a boycot, do it right.  Otherwise, join the fray -- you make good arguments.  But you can't boycot a thread and post to it at the same time.  Something about cake.  And it's the everything else forum, which in a way...means....welll......everything else.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

err....seriously.  It's just weird to talk about the fact that a thread shouldn't exist and how retarded it is, and then post to it.

Agreed. One problem...

Anyway...if you're going to do a boycot, do it right.  Otherwise, join the fray -- you make good arguments.  But you can't boycot a thread and post to it at the same time.  Something about cake.  And it's the everything else forum, which in a way...means....welll......everything else.

...how do you boycott something in the digital realm?  You can't exactly stand in front of it with a sign and picket. I've made peace w/ the fact that he'll probably post more topics like:

"John Kerry Eats Babies Raw --- See Inside For More"
"Liberal Elite Media Puts Hex On My Family -- Latte Streams From All Our Faucets"
"Bush Walks On Water, Heals the Blind, Still Can't Distinguish Between Iraq and Iran"

and I'm done bitching about it. I'll either work to debunk or ignore them all together, just like everyone else. Promise.

mrC
 

[DrewKaree]

I've made peace w/ the fact that he'll probably post more topics like:

"John Kerry Eats Babies Raw --- See Inside For More"
"Liberal Elite Media Puts Hex On My Family -- Latte Streams From All Our Faucets"
"Bush Walks On Water, Heals the Blind, Still Can't Distinguish Between Iraq and Iran"

Are you sure you aren't Rush Limbaugh in disguise?  I hadn't thought of those, but now that you mention it...

Hell, if you lived by me I'd take you out for a beer (or something) and we could knock heads.

I'm headed for Lowell if we can come up with some more of those snappy thread titles  

Check your IM's

[fredster]

...how do you boycott something in the digital realm?

Interesting question, easy answer.  Same way you do with anything else, you don't buy into it.  You don't post, you ignore it altogether.

MrC can't let it go.  He has to put in the two cents like the rest of us.

[DarkKobold]

Ok, this thread is waaaay to long, and most people talk for like, 1/2 a page.  Is drew voting for Kerry yet?













Or at least bunnies?

[danny_galaga]

Darkkobold, soon the elections will be over (in the US and Australia) and we can all forget about the fact that all politicians that are successful are the same!! business as usual whoever wins and these threads will sink from view. i dont know if you ever saw it in the US, but the uk tv series 'yes minister' and 'yes, prime minister' is a brilliant portrayal of how bureaucracy (damn thats a hard word to spell) remains unchanged whichever government is in power...

[Santoro]

What I want to know is where these guys find the time to research and write these loooong posts!

[mr.Curmudgeon]

  Work has been slow lately.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

MrC can't let it go.  He has to put in the two cents like the rest of us.

Hehe...If you only knew how many times I sat down and got back up from my computer , gritting my teeth before making each post...

[Harry Potter]

Drew, never met you, never will, but please listen. Walk to the arcade machine, plug it in, play it and stop posting this crap.

Getting very boring.

[DrewKaree]

Ok, this thread is waaaay to long, and most people talk for like, 1/2 a page.  Is drew voting for Kerry yet?  Or at least bunnies?

Up with Kerry, down with bunnies...wait...YOU TRICKED ME!  STOP PLAYING THAT FRIGGEN PEARL JAM CD!

[DrewKaree]

Drew, never met you, never will, but please listen. Walk to the arcade machine, plug it in, play it and stop posting this crap.  Getting very boring.

or, better yet, while browsing...keep chantingn over and over.....must...not....open....thread....must....not....read...thread

BTW, which was the boring part, the 70+ posts you read, or the part where you were forced to post your own reply?    

I'm working on not continuing this purposefully, but when you say something like that, it's kinda hard not to respond.  I've got a few specific things I need to respond to, until that point, you've only served to bring this thread back to the top and publicize it yourself.  Maybe I've also lucked out, and you subscribed to this thread  

MrC, he's teasing me!  

[Edgedamage]

Leafswitch joysticks ROCK!

[danny_galaga]

further to my statement about major parties being much of a muchness, a friend forwarded this to me today:

http://antiwar.com/orig/pilger.php?articleid=2089


ages ago, drewkaree said 'vote for none of the above'. i think he was right. and if enough people actually voted and wrote 'none of the above' then politicians would take notice...

[Harry Potter]

Drew, never met you, never will, but please listen. Walk to the arcade machine, plug it in, play it and stop posting this crap.  Getting very boring.

or, better yet, while browsing...keep chantingn over and over.....must...not....open....thread....must....not....read...thread

BTW, which was the boring part, the 70+ posts you read, or the part where you were forced to post your own reply?    

I'm working on not continuing this purposefully, but when you say something like that, it's kinda hard not to respond.  I've got a few specific things I need to respond to, until that point, you've only served to bring this thread back to the top and publicize it yourself.  Maybe I've also lucked out, and you subscribed to this thread  

MrC, he's teasing me!  

AAARGH! The agony! Something I've so long tried to stop has now been brought back. BY ME! Oh the irony, the irony.  

Purpose is out to lunch from this topic by the way. But by all means don't let me stop you. Good luck.

And I never was good at chanting, or knowing to to stop typing.

[shmokes]

I thought it was Peale that kept posting "Vote none of the above".

[danny_galaga]

I thought it was Peale that kept posting "Vote none of the above".

peale, drew. you guys all look alike to me...

 

[DrewKaree]

peale, drew. you guys all look alike to me...

Is that kinda like us silly Americans...New Zealanders, Australians, Brits...you all sound alike to  us  

[Harry Potter]

peale, drew. you guys all look alike to me...

Is that kinda like us silly Americans...New Zealanders, Australians, Brits...you all sound alike to  us  

I don't sound like Steve Irwin. Crikey!  

[fredster]

Prediction folks -

Bush 55% - Kerry 42% - everybody and everything else 3%

MrC - I didn't say that I believed those boat stories anyway. The point I was making is that both sides are clouding the issue with 1/2 truths and innuendo to the point nobody can believe any of it.

I really don't care about Kerry 30 years ago.  Same for Bush.  I'm not the same man I was 20 years ago.  It's now that's important.

BTW, I worked for Dick Chaney 3 times (very very indirectly).  Twice in the Army and Army reserve, and once for Roots Dresser, a subsidiary of Halliburton.

I heard him speak at Roots.  He always impressed me as a very successful and influential man that knew the right thing to do in a tough situation.

The thing that bothers me most is how they are draggin Halliburton's reputation in the mud while trying to hurt the president and vice president.  Halliburton is no more a war machine than GM or Allison who make most of the main components for the jets and tanks and trucks.

[fredster]

More on the Kerry Flap - to me it's as real as the Bush flap.  That is, they are both brought together with the same Idea in mind.  Slam the other guy with alligations.  As long as people will listen, they will believe it if it's true or not:

This one says kerry lied, and still gives credit to the swift boat crew MrC says are "discredited"

http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc91.htm

[shmokes]

Fred,

The Drudge Report is a tabloid.  Read it for entertainment, but don't start quoting it until the real news outlets have verified the claims.  The reason Drudge breaks stories so often is he will print ANYTHING that reflects poorly on Democrats, with apparent disregard for the credibility of the source.  More often then not, if he broke it, it's a load of crap.

If you want to debate with the grown-ups, you have to use grown-up sources for your arguments.

[Valence]

Straight off the fox press.

Pertaining to Elliot George

"he says he sided with Kerry's critics because he can't believe they would all lie in concert, adding that he, "absolutely does not know first hand" what happened."

100 million ditto heads follow partyline with the reason we attacked iraq, even though it changed, and he can't believe that they can find 250 people to lie? Not a very bright guy.

Fox

[fredster]

Shmokes, Thanks for your unsolicited personal advice. I'll have to remember that.

But to clarify that - YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT.  

I know what the Drudge Report is.  It's funny sometimes too.  Drudge is the one who broke the Monica Story way back when, isn't he? YEs, he was.

Besides, most of the stuff quoted here isn't from a real news outlet.  That was my point man.  Most of the stuff is from left and right sides of the fence.


Back to the two sides.
How about something more mainstream: What about Novak?

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20040809.shtml

I agree with Bush on the war.  I didn't consider myself to be a "ditto" head. It made sense at the time, and still makes sense.

[shmokes]

Exactly which of the various rational he has given us do you agree with?  Or do you just agree....?

And my point about the drudge report is that you make something about Drudge giving a group credit that was alledged to be discredited.  Tabloids, on a regular basis, give credit to the allegations that Elvis lives.

And in my own defense, I haven't linked to anything other than credible news sources who at least attempt to keep bias out of their journalism.

And, hey, regarding the advise...it's totally my pleasure, but it's gracious of you to thank me.  

[Harry Potter]

HEY! TOPIC! get back up here you BASTAR*D!  

[DrewKaree]

Straight off the fox press.

Pertaining to Elliot George

"he says he sided with Kerry's critics because he can't believe they would all lie in concert, adding that he, "absolutely does not know first hand" what happened."

100 million ditto heads follow partyline with the reason we attacked iraq, even though it changed, and he can't believe that they can find 250 people to lie? Not a very bright guy.

Fox

Valence, enlighten the reading audience here and tell about what the partyline is that the "ditto heads" are following, and what it's changed from.

That's two separate things.  

1.  What the "original" party line was.

2.  What the "new" party line is.

It'd enlighten us all to see what you think it is, and also give someone a chance to refute what your charge is, baseless or not.  I don't profess to speak for you or the mind-numbed liberal minions out there, nor do I believe they all march in lock-step to Kerry's tune, and I don't make charges about what your party line is unless I point to something that might back up my stance.  Flesh out your arguments with a little substance.  Mr C, help him out.  

[shmokes]

That's easy.  The party line is, "Stand behind the president, regardless..."

He means that even though it should be painfully obvious that we should not have gone into Iraq, people wear their party-line blinders and refuse to see what's right in front of them.  He means that in a country this divided and partisan it's silly to suggest that it would be difficult to find a group of people like this to lie.  

Think about it....how would there be 250 people from other boats that would know one way or the other whether John Kerry's wound was legit?  These are people who were in swift boats and who support Bush, and so they join the cause.  

For that matter, you think an Army doctor in Vietnam is honestly going to remember someone coming in with a "minor wound" 30 years ago, off the top of his head, without looking at the medical records (which of course contradict what he is saying)?  Ya know...it's not that hard to get a purple heart when you're in a war like vietnam, as long as you manage to come back alive.  The guy was a swift boat captain.  All you have to do to get a purple heart is get injured in battle.  Even if it was Kerry's own mortor bouncing off a rock that got him in the arm (which there is no evidence to suggest this is what happened), what do you suppose he was shooting at?

[DrewKaree]

We're talking two completely different things here, AND you didn't answer the original question asked.  His original post states (two separate points underlined)

100 million ditto heads follow partyline with the reason we attacked iraq, even though it changed, and he can't believe that they can find 250 people to lie?

Also, since we got got a thread closed down, it would behoove those of us wanting to talk about this to calm down and re-read what we are saying to see if it is indeed civil, and change it if it is NOT (not taking a shot at you, shmokes, just a general "knock it off" to everyone, after all, if I don't have these threads, how will my post count EVER get higher than yours? )

That's easy.  The party line is, "Stand behind the president, regardless..."

that's overly simplistic and not fleshed out.  Which is that the answer to, 1 or 2?  If it's 2, then it must have changed from "NOT standing behind the president, regardless".  Also, I'm asking...*rephrases*...from what did the "ditto-plan" change from?  

It's one thing to throw out baseless assessments of a political group, it's another to say them, show how you formulated that opinion, and then defend your claim.  The former is how debate gets inflamed and doesn't serve either party.  I'm just asking Valence to flesh out his claim.

<sub>He means that even though it should be painfully obvious that we should not have gone into Iraq, people wear their party-line blinders and refuse to see what's right in front of them.  He means that in a country this divided and partisan it's silly to suggest that it would be difficult to find a group of people like this to lie.  

Think about it....how would there be 250 people from other boats that would know one way or the other whether John Kerry's wound was legit?  These are people who were in swift boats and who support Bush, and so they join the cause.  

For that matter, you think an Army doctor in Vietnam is honestly going to remember someone coming in with a "minor wound" 30 years ago, off the top of his head, without looking at the medical records (which of course contradict what he is saying)?  Ya know...it's not that hard to get a purple heart when you're in a war like vietnam, as long as you manage to come back alive.  The guy was a swift boat captain.  All you have to do to get a purple heart is get injured in battle.  Even if it was Kerry's own mortor bouncing off a rock that got him in the arm (which there is no evidence to suggest this is what happened), what do you suppose he was shooting at?</sub>

this is where we're talking two different things.  I'm not asking about this, or referring to this...yet...I'm just asking about what the party line is, and what it was.

Oh, and btw, thanks for clearing that up shmokes Valence   it really helped us find out what ya thought  

[shmokes]

I don't think you're reading his post correctly Drew.  He didn't say the party line has changed.  He said that the stated reason we went into Iraq has changed.  Hence, people "stand[ing] behind the president [on the reason we went into Iraq], regardless [of the fact that that it changed]."

I honestly wasn't trying to be coy.  I think you simply misread his statement.  He was merely saying that when there are 100 million ditto heads [sic] that will follow the party line no matter how absurd it is under the circumstances to follow, it should not be difficult to come up with 250 people who would be willing to lie.

I don't mean to put words into Valence's mouth.  But I think I'm doing a pretty fair job explaining to you what he meant and I'd hate for the thread to stagnate just because Valence is in the Bahamas for the next two weeks or something.  I'm sure he'll set me straight if I'm reading him wrong.

[APFelon]

Thanks for killing the thread that we were having a "civil" debate on, Schmokes. I'm sure your response was wise and informative.

APf

[shmokes]

Unless it was killed belatedly for one of my posts, I don't think it was I who got the thread killed.  That is to say, I don't think it was any of my posts that were the straw that broke the camel's back -- not that I didn't contribute to any of the negative tone.  

Try to play nice this time...we don't want this one to have the same fate.

p.s.  That's an astute assumption and an excellent gamble for you to make.  All my responses were wise and informative.  It's a sad situation indeed that future visitors to this site will be forever deprived of all the wisdom I contributed to that thread.  

[saint]

Before anyone goes pointing fingers, there was no one person who got that thread killed.

--- saint

[DrewKaree]

It's a sad situation indeed that future visitors to this site will be forever deprived of all the wisdom I contributed to that thread.  

If you were sitting next to me, I'd slug you in the shoulder...I almost spewed soda outta my nose when I read that!  

As for Valence, I'm gonna wait for him to say, but to say the least, his posts are hard for me to follow.  Yours I have no problem following.  Just look for reason, and you'll be 100 yards away from there    

[monkeybomb]